The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers

[Phil W]

I believe that we only bear good fruit if we remain in the vine (i.e. we abide in Jesus). If we choose to not serve God anymore, the Lord is not going to force us to bear fruit against our own will. We have to cooperate with the Lord. I believe that is what he is saying in regards to John 15.

I agree that is the gist of it...and of all God's word.

 

[Strong in Him]

I believe that we only bear good fruit if we remain in the vine (i.e. we abide in Jesus). If we choose to not serve God anymore, the Lord is not going to force us to bear fruit against our own will.

If we choose not to remain in Jesus and serve God any more, we CAN'T bear the fruit of the Spirit.
This is what, I believe, "fruit" refers to here. We often think of "bearing fruit" in terms of deeds, physical actions resulting in good things. But even atheists, humanists, Muslims etc can do works and good deeds; someone can be a "good" person doing good things, and not even believe in Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If we choose not to remain in Jesus and serve God any more, we CAN'T bear the fruit of the Spirit.
This is what, I believe, "fruit" refers to here. We often think of "bearing fruit" in terms of deeds, physical actions resulting in good things. But even atheists, humanists, Muslims etc can do works and good deeds; someone can be a "good" person doing good things, and not even believe in Jesus.

It is true that faith is a fruit. While fruits are implied in some cases as being a state of having a certain emotion like "joy" (as mentioned in Galatians 5:22-23), the Bible defines fruits as deeds, as well.

"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." (Luke 3:8).

"but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance." (Acts of the Apostles 26:20) (NKJV).​

Even the context of Luke 3:8 says this,

"The crowds asked him, “What then should we do?” John replied, “Whoever has two tunics should share with him who has none, and whoever has food should do the same.”Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?” “Collect no more than you are authorized,” he answered." (Luke 3:10-13).​

What is interesting is that Belief Alone-ism is condemned in Luke 3:8, as well. If you were to go back and look at the verse, John the Baptist also says, "begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father." The Jews wanted to just declare to themselves that they were God's people based on the fact that they were children of Abraham. Sounds like history is repeating itself today. Men think they are saved by just declaring they have a belief alone in Jesus. Yet, if John the baptist was here on this Earth today, he would tell them to repent and bring forth fruits (deeds) befitting of repentance.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If we choose not to remain in Jesus and serve God any more, we CAN'T bear the fruit of the Spirit.
This is what, I believe, "fruit" refers to here. We often think of "bearing fruit" in terms of deeds, physical actions resulting in good things. But even atheists, humanists, Muslims etc can do works and good deeds; someone can be a "good" person doing good things, and not even believe in Jesus.

As for whether or not men can do good works:

Jesus says,

"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:18-20).

"...there is none good but one, that is, God" (Matthew 19:17).​

Paul says,

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13).​

Any true good done by a believer is actually God doing the good work through them. Technically, only God alone is good and He does the true good works through us.

So then how can unbelievers or false believers do good works or deeds?
They really are not doing good works. They are false good works. They are poor imitations because they are done by human effort and motivations and it is not God working in them to do the good works.

This is why Jesus says that false believers shall be known by their fruit. Sure, they may at times be able to appear like sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. They did not surrender to God and seek forgiveness of their sins with the real Jesus of the Bible and are changed (Whereby they are walking uprightly with the Lord and whereby they are not seeking to justify sin).

We are just clay jars or vessels. God is the light. God is love. God is good. We are nothing in and of ourselves. The only good we can do is God working through us. If we do evil, we defile our temple, and God will destroy those who do so (See: 1 Corinthians 3:17). This does not mean a believer will be taken home early to Heaven if they defile their temple with sin. This means they will come under judgment and they will eventually perish and or be destroyed.

 

[Strong in Him]

As for whether or not men can do good works:

Jesus says,

"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:18-20).​

​

That's the point - a lot of people write/act as if "fruit" in Matthew 7:18 refers to deeds; good works.
I'm saying that I don't think it does.
Look at Matthew 7:16-17; Jesus says that false prophets may look like sheep, but they wear wolves' clothing and are dangerous - and we will recognise them by their fruit. Yet atheists, those who don't acknowledge God, leaders of cults and so on have still done good things - like founding charities, building hospitals etc. Yes, in God's eyes they are still sinners and still lost; but people could look at the outward "fruit" of charitable works and care for others, and think them to be Christians. Then, if for example they said they believed that the Trinity doesn't exist, like some cults do, people might be willing to listen/be deceived by them because their "fruit" is good - outwardly, they appear to be good people.

Paul says,

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13).​

Any true good done by a believer is actually God doing the good work through them.

Yes, but unbelievers can do "true good" too. Like the Mormons, who have a family history tracing service and a Tabernacle choir, which no doubt sings and raises money for folks. Yet Mormonism is a cult.

Technically, only God alone is good and He does the true good works through us.

Humanists are convinced that human beings are the highest power in the universe. They will often do good, for the sake of their fellow man (and woman).

Now if you're saying that because God made us all in his image, Genesis 1:26-27, and put his breath in us, Genesis 2:7, therefore in some small way God is in everyone; I think I'd agree with you. And if you are saying that it is God IN these people who is prompting them to think of others, show mercy, do good things etc; again, I think I would agree with you.
But it is not their good deeds that will save them. They are still sinners and need forgiveness - which they may never ask for because in their view, God doesn't exist and/or they want nothing to do with him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

​

That's the point - a lot of people write/act as if "fruit" in Matthew 7:18 refers to deeds; good works.
I'm saying that I don't think it does.
Look at Matthew 7:16-17; Jesus says that false prophets may look like sheep, but they wear wolves' clothing and are dangerous - and we will recognise them by their fruit. Yet atheists, those who don't acknowledge God, leaders of cults and so on have still done good things - like founding charities, building hospitals etc. Yes, in God's eyes they are still sinners and still lost; but people could look at the outward "fruit" of charitable works and care for others, and think them to be Christians. Then, if for example they said they believed that the Trinity doesn't exist, like some cults do, people might be willing to listen/be deceived by them because their "fruit" is good - outwardly, they appear to be good people.



Yes, but unbelievers can do "true good" too. Like the Mormons, who have a family history tracing service and a Tabernacle choir, which no doubt sings and raises money for folks. Yet Mormonism is a cult.



Humanists are convinced that human beings are the highest power in the universe. They will often do good, for the sake of their fellow man (and woman).

Now if you're saying that because God made us all in his image, Genesis 1:26-27, and put his breath in us, Genesis 2:7, therefore in some small way God is in everyone; I think I'd agree with you. And if you are saying that it is God IN these people who is prompting them to think of others, show mercy, do good things etc; again, I think I would agree with you.
But it is not their good deeds that will save them. They are still sinners and need forgiveness - which they may never ask for because in their view, God doesn't exist and/or they want nothing to do with him.

I already shown you by Scripture that fruits can be deeds or works. Again, compare Luke 3:8, with Acts of the Apostles 26:20. Look again at the context of Luke 3:8. John the baptist tells the people to do certain things as a part of bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance. But of course, people who do not want to see such things in Scripture if they feel it contradicts their view of Soteriology that is more comforting.

 

[Strong in Him]

I already shown you by Scripture that fruits can be deeds or works.

CAN be - yes, I'm sure they can.
But I believe that "bearing fruit", see John 15, also refers to the fruit of the Spirit.

Like I said, we could look at someone who is doing good, charitable deeds and believe that they are Christians, and it is their faith that is causing them to do those deeds. We might be correct. But they could also be wolves in sheep's clothing - non Christians who don't believe, or Christians who hold false teachings.
Anyone can do good deeds; no one who is not in Jesus can show agape love, the joy that Jesus gave us, the peace that he left with us, Godly patience, and so on.

There's no need to accuse me of "not wanting to see things in Scripture" just because I have a different view of this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

CAN be - yes, I'm sure they can.
But I believe that "bearing fruit", see John 15, also refers to the fruit of the Spirit.

Like I said, we could look at someone who is doing good, charitable deeds and believe that they are Christians, and it is their faith that is causing them to do those deeds. We might be correct. But they could also be wolves in sheep's clothing - non Christians who don't believe, or Christians who hold false teachings.
Anyone can do good deeds; no one who is not in Jesus can show agape love, the joy that Jesus gave us, the peace that he left with us, Godly patience, and so on.

There's no need to accuse me of "not wanting to see things in Scripture" just because I have a different view of this.

I am just saying that Luke 3:8 makes it clear that fruit is referring to works if you were to look at the context, and also if you were to compare it with Acts of the Apostles 26:20. You cannot have a different view of what the Bible plainly says.

Also, cooperating with the works of God He wants to do through our lives is not the same thing as counterfeit human works that attempts to mimic the real deal.

 

[Phil W]

I am just saying that Luke 3:8 makes it clear that fruit is referring to works if you were to look at the context, and also if you were to compare it with Acts of the Apostles 26:20. You cannot have a different view of what the Bible plainly says.

Also, cooperating with the works of God He wants to do through our lives is not the same thing as counterfeit human works that attempts to mimic the real deal.

You two guys are saying the same thing, but in different ways.
Here is the synopsis...
Deeds done for immoral purposes, self gratifying, are not "good" deeds.
Deeds done for the glory of God ARE good deeds.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You two guys are saying the same thing, but in different ways.
Here is the synopsis...
Deeds done for immoral purposes, self gratifying, are not "good" deeds.
Deeds done for the glory of God ARE good deeds.

Hmmm, not sure we agree. I believe our friend here believes in Eternal Security (Which means that they believe that a believer does not have bring forth good works as a part of the salvation equation, and or they don't lose salvation via by committing grievous sin). This is why they are against what I am saying. They don't want fruits to be works because that would mean that John 15:1-6, Titus 1:16, Matthew 25:30, and other verses would appear to be a salvation issue.

Side Note:

I believe any supposed good deeds that is done by an unbeliever or false prophet (no matter how selfless) are counterfeit. They are not good deeds. Only God doing the good work through the truly faithful believer (Who follows God's Word in truth) and who does not justify sin is doing good works. These works are not their own but it is God doing the good work through them. No man can do good works like the good works of God done through a believer. They might be able to imitate them, but they cannot be a good tree that brings forth only good fruit. Counterfeits will have bad fruit. Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit. In other words, they like wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[Phil W]

Hmmm, not sure we agree. I believe our friend here believes in Eternal Security (Which means that it is highly likely they believe that a believer does not have bring forth good works as a part of the salvation equation, and or they don't lose salvation via by committing grievous sin). This is why they are against what I am saying. They don't want fruits to be works because that would mean that John 15:1-6, Titus 1:16, Matthew 25:30, and other verses would not appear to be a salvation issue.

You are "supposing" he is OSAS.
Let's ask him...
STRONG IN HIM....Are you a believer of the OSAS doctrine?

And along that line, do you (SIH) think you are "IN HIM" if you are committing sin?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are "supposing" he is OSAS.
Let's ask him...
STRONG IN HIM....Are you a believer of the OSAS doctrine?

And along that line, do you (SIH) think you are "IN HIM" if you are committing sin?

"Strong in Him" is a "she" and not a "he."
This is also not my first discussion with her on the topic of salvation, either.
She believes in Eternal Security.
You can see her declaring this fact for herself in her post here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And along that line, do you (SIH) think you are "IN HIM" if you are committing sin?

Eternal Security Proponents generally believe that when they sin, they lose fellowship with God but they don't believe they lose their salvation. They view eternal life like it is some kind of superpower or magical wish granted by a genie. But Christ alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). He that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). But of course, they will not answer these kinds of verses properly.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are "supposing" he is OSAS.
Let's ask him...
STRONG IN HIM....Are you a believer of the OSAS doctrine?

And along that line, do you (SIH) think you are "IN HIM" if you are committing sin?

When believers commit grievous sins (or grave sins), do they place at risk their salvation?

You can check out her answer on this one in her post here.

 

[Phil W]

When believers commit grievous sins (or grave sins), do they place at risk their salvation?

You can check out her answer on this one in her post here.

Thanks for the link, but even there she doesn't say plainly she is an OSAS advocate.

Let's wait for her direct answer to my question in post #271.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks for the link, but even there she doesn't say plainly she is an OSAS advocate.

Let's wait for her direct answer to my question in post #271.

She is unsure about OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), but she believes in a form of Eternal Security and or a sin and still be saved type belief. This is not my first discussion with her before.

 

[Phil W]

She is unsure about OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), but she believes in a form of Eternal Security and or a sin and still be saved type belief. This is not my first discussion with her before.

I feel that there are two very different kinds of OSAS doctrine.
One, the one you refer to, is not of God, as it is most often used as a license to commit sin...even if very subtly.
The other, and the one I hold to, is based on 1 John 3:9..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Those born of God cannot commit sin, so my perspective of OSAS is the antithesis of the more well know OSAS.
If one advocating my POV does commit sin, it manifests that they were never reborn of God's seed to begin with.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I feel that there are two very different kinds of OSAS doctrine.
One, the one you refer to, is not of God, as it is most often used as a license to commit sin...even if very subtly.
The other, and the one I hold to, is based on 1 John 3:9..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Those born of God cannot commit sin, so my perspective of OSAS is the antithesis of the more well know OSAS.
If one advocating my POV does commit sin, it manifests that they were never reborn of God's seed to begin with.

But that is not consistent with Scripture, though. For...

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
(Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

If Once Saved Always Saved was true, then these statements would not exist in Scripture.

 

[Neogaia777]

When believers commit grievous sins (or grave sins), do they place at risk their salvation?

You can check out her answer on this one in her post here.

You cannot possibly know or judge for absolutely sure ever, etc...

"Risk", yes, or maybe, but "certainty", no...

To think you can, or can know for sure, is to put yourself in the place of God, etc...

And if that doesn't scare you a bit, then there is something seriously wrong with you as a Christian, etc...

Seating yourself in the place of judgment, etc...

God Bless!

 

[A_Thinker]

"The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers"

In which of these "believers" did the Holy Spirit dwell ... ?

Luke 18

9 To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable:

10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like the other men—swindlers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and pay tithes of all that I acquire.’

13 But the tax collector stood at a distance, unwilling even to lift up his eyes to heaven. Instead, he beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner!’

14 I tell you, this man, rather than the Pharisee, went home justified. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”