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Before froggy shows up and this turns into a he said/she said Law thread ...
No orthodox Christian would ever say that we can just do whatever we like. The difference between Perfectionism and orthodox Christianity is the proper distinction between Law and Gospel.
The law says to be holy, to be perfect, to be like God. The law shows us that not only are we incapable of being perfect, when it comes right down to it, we don't really even want to. Not really.
I can't think of a more prideful thing than to claim that one has stopped sinning. It is not only impossible this side of the resurrection, it is very dangerous to think so.
It also pegs out the irony gauge. Claiming not to sin is obviously and inherently sinful.
Here is the Gospel: Christ is our righteousness.
Only in him are we made perfect. Only in him can we be made holy. God himself does this, not we ourselves; not because of any effort on our part, not because of any decision we make or work we might do, but simply for the sake of Jesus Christ and the Father's love for him.
Does that mean that we can just keep on sinning willy-nilly? Obviously not. That would be unbelief and a blasphemy of God's holy name. Yet we have two wills battling it out inside us. The will of our flesh can do nothing but sin. The will of our spirit is holy and righteous before God.
We must live in constant repentance not just for our sins but for our utter sinfulness. We must cling to the cross and hold God to his promises.
The battle continues.
.
sprouted directly from? NO. but the holiness movement at some point crept in. in fact some still hold to the holiness aspectArn't they sprouted directly from the movement. Don't they hold to very similar (controvertial) beliefs?
All I care about is, what do they practice...is it biblical. Is it sound doctrine.
The main departure from orthodox Christianity for the Holiness movement is the false doctrine of Perfectionism.
"35. What is Christian Perfection?
Through the Holy Spirit God has given us his love so that we may love him in return with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and our neighbour as ourselves. The gift is offered to all Christians, and by responding we affirm that there is no limit to what the grace of God is able to do in a human life. By giving us the Holy Spirit, God assures us of his love for us and enables us to love as he, in Christ, loves us. When God's love is perfected in us, we so represent Christ to our neighbours that they see him in us without hindrance from us.
Perfect love, as Christian perfection is also called, is the result of, and can only be maintained by, complete dependence on Jesus Christ. It is given either gradually or at one moment, but does not mean that spiritual growth has ended, for Christian perfection is perfection in love only: it is not freedom from making mistakes, or from ignorance. Only God is absolutely perfect.
35. Romans 8:12-17 1 John 4:7-21 Romans 5:5
Note: Christian perfection or perfect love was a particular emphasis in John Wesley's preaching and writing: see 'A Plain Account of Christian Perfection' and the sermons on the subject based on Philippians 3:12 and Hebrews 6:1 "
(Amazon.com: John Wesley (Library of Protestant Thought) ) (pp.283-298)Q. 1. What is Christian Perfection?
A. The Loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, strength. This implies that no wrong temper, none contrary to love, remains in the soul and that all the thoughts, words and actions are governed by pure love.
Q. 2. But do you affirm that this perfection excludes all infirmities, ignorance and mistake?
A. I continually affirm quite the contrary, and always have done so. The sermon on "Christian Perfection" was published above eighteen years ago. And therein I expressly declare "Christians are not so perfect in this life as to be free from ignorance...
Not confusing to me...if you read the wiki article you linked to it says that AoG falls under the Reformed or Higher Life grouping.why not bring them up?
the point was AoF + PAST SINS = man deceived, fell away under Law.
anyways: this whole "oh, that's not MY sister, but she looks like her" is tiresome. IS IT ERROR OR IS IT NOT?
here's one reason ppl might just get a tad confuzzled - please correct any errors, Drew:
Classical Pentecostalism
Classical Pentecostalism is the earliest form of Pentecostalism and is divided into three major orientations/origins: Wesleyan-holiness, Reformed-Higher Life, and Oneness denominations.[37] Examples of Wesleyan holiness denominations include the Church of God in Christ and the International Pentecostal Holiness Church (IPHC). The International Church of the Foursquare Gospel and the Assemblies of God are examples of the Reformed branch.[37][38] The major Oneness churches include the United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) and the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (PAW). With the exception of Oneness Pentecostals, classical Pentecostal churches share basic beliefs with the rest of evangelical Christianity.
The difference between Wesleyan and non-Wesleyan Pentecostals is largely over understanding of sanctification. Wesleyan Pentecostals believe that sanctification is an experience or crisis event that occurs after salvation and before Spirit baptism. This experience cleanses the believer, rooting out the sinful, fallen nature.
Non-Wesleyan Pentecostals believe that sanctification is a life-long process. In addition to the Reformed and Higher Life labels, many non-Wesleyan Pentecostal groups are also classified as Finished Work or Baptistic Pentecostals.[37]
i care because i talk to others all the time about their beliefs....i want to understand where these ideas are coming from.
~ c.
sprouted directly from? NO. but the holiness movement at some point crept in. in fact some still hold to the holiness aspect
Why did you call it Perfectionism instead of Christian Perfection or Entire Sanctification?
The Methodist Catechism says;
and Wesley himself said,
(Amazon.com: John Wesley (Library of Protestant Thought)…) (pp.283-298)
What actually is false about saying that by depending on Jesus we can love as God has commanded? The doctrine never says that Christians can be perfect, only God is perfect.
Not confusing to me...if you read the wiki article you linked to it says that AoG falls under the Reformed or Higher Life grouping.
I was under the impression that this was a thread about the Holiness Movement...not the Pentecostal Movement...so, are you, as the OP, wanting to take the thread off topic?
Q: are the doctrinal foundations of The Holiness Movement sound?
Q: subsequently, do the movements which found their origins in it have sound doctrinal foundations?
Q: specifically which doctrines may be unsound? please elaborate, documenting in Scripture if possible.
[this is open to all: supportive and critical. please link to sources you are familiar with - for assisting others in their own assessments]
.......................
The Holiness movement
is an American off-shoot of Methodism which generally follows the Arminian doctrinal teachings of John Wesley. Holiness Christians left Methodism in the 19th and early 20th centuries because they felt that mainstream Methodism was failing to emphasize Wesleyan teachings on sanctification, particularly the experience of Christian Perfection, which Holiness theologians usually refer to as entire sanctification, following Wesley's colleague John Fletcher. Among the more notable Holiness bodies are the Church of the Nazarene and the Salvation Army.
theopedia
The Holiness movement
The traditional holiness movement is distinct from the Pentecostal movement, which believes that receiving the Holy Spirit involves speaking in tongues. Indeed, many of the early Pentecostals were from holiness movement, and to this day many "classical Pentecostals" maintain much of holiness doctrine and many of its devotional practices. (Oneness Pentecostals, such as the United Pentecostal Church, still largely adhere to these "standards.") Additionally, the terms Pentecostal and apostolic, now used by adherents to Pentecostal and charismatic doctrine, were once widely used by Holiness churches in connection with the consecrated lifestyle described in the New Testament.
However, Pentecostals add and emphasize that the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit is evidenced specifically by speaking in tongues, a position which churches in the traditional holiness movement do not accept. During the advent of Pentecostalism at Azusa Street, the practice of speaking in tongues was strongly rejected by leaders of the traditional holiness movement. Alma White, the leader of the Pillar of Fire Church, a holiness denomination, wrote a book against the Pentecostal movement that was published in 1936. The work entitled Demons and Tongues, represented early rejection of the new Pentecostal movement. White called speaking in tongues satanic gibberish and Pentecostal services the climax of demon worship.[2]
Nevertheless, many holiness churches and organizations joined the Pentecostal movement (e.g., the Church of God in Christ and the Pentecostal Holiness Church), accepting the Pentecostal teaching on speaking on tongues as a "third work" of grace, in addition to conversion and sanctification. As a result, Pentecostal churches in the Southeast and in the African-American community, are often called "holiness" and "sanctified" churches.
wikipedia
I don't see how you've gotten any of that from what has been posted in this thread...but, continue believing your misconceptions....
...and human ego raises its ugly head.
My concern with a 'holiness' movement is the work of the flesh. ALL glory goes to God - when we start to 'work' on our righteousness, no matter how noble the reason, human failings seem to rise to the surface.
Of course, it's not to say that the work of Christ within us as believers, and our submission, humility, and obedience to His work is not necessary. But I firmly believe that anyone, and I mean anyone, that says they have reached Holiness by their works that they do or don't do...is deluded.
That's why we needed to work of our Savior in the first place...because even the saints of old and the fathers of faith...COULDN'T DO IT.
Romans Chapter 3
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Christ and Him crucified, my hope of Glory!
Note what your wiki article says..."many Pentecostals were from the Holiness movement"...but, many were not, and are not.hi Big!
things are going along fine, i thought.
just trying to understand roots, Drewster
The Mosaic Law stuff, for one...I don't know of any Holiness believer that's trying to follow the Law.??
hi Drew.
i mentioned earlier that much of what i have gathered (it's tough plowing to get the info) actually comes from one-on-one interaction along with personal research.
what misconceptions, Drew? i'm open: please tell me what i have wrong. be as precise as possible.
thank you!
Ah the old No True Scotsman fallacy. Gotta love it....
Not confusing to me...if you read the wiki article you linked to it says that AoG falls under the Reformed or Higher Life grouping.
I was under the impression that this was a thread about the Holiness Movement...not the Pentecostal Movement...so, are you, as the OP, wanting to take the thread off topic?
The Mosaic Law stuff, for one...I don't know of any Holiness believer that's trying to follow the Law.
The other, something that has been stressed by myself and others, is that Christian Perfection is not sinless perfection, as you keep insisting that it is.
hi mr. dave:
thank you
i see the writings at the end here seem to be saying (just differently) that we are become in actuality perfect (called in love, here)...and that we only make mistakes, or are ignorant after salvation.
if that's true, i'm in big trouble
how many Holiness believers do you know? how holy are they?
Not quite.
The Wesleyan-Holiness tradition (maybe more the Wesleyan?) wouldn't view salvation as an event that things happen after. Salvation is a process, of which this (entire sanctification) is a part.
What the writing's are saying is that we can come to exhibit perfect love, and are truly able to love God with all our heart strength and soul, and love our neighbour as ourselves. We do not actually become perfect people, and thus 'Christian Perfection' doesn't prevent us from failings (ignorance, mistakes, other errors...).
In Wesleyan derived theology there is no 'after salvation' as we are continually in a state of being saved, being saved from these mistakes (the ones that Christian Perfection does not stop as it does not deal with them) as we continually recognise our failings and pray to God for forgiveness from them.
Keith Drury is a professor at Indiana Wesleyan University who wrote the book Holiness for Ordinary People. In this article he provides insight into the present state of the Holiness Movement.
LDG
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