The Hobbit: Does It Both Address Diaspora 4 Religious Groups while Sterotyping Them

Eudaimonist

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But here is the problem. The Persians and the Greeks were not different races, they are both Indo-Europeans. Yet the Persians are depicted as black in the movie. How can that not be racist?

Are you referring to this guy?

Xerxes-in-300.jpg


He was played by this actor:

4th+Annual+Los+Angeles+Italia+Film+Fashion+5bm-X65Qimll.jpg


Yes, he had a dark tan in the movie, as you might actually expect of someone who spends a good deal of time outside in the sun.

What made you think he was black?

Or perhaps you mean the Messenger that was kicked in the well. I think he was portrayed by a black actor, but there's no reason to think that the Persian army would have no blacks whatsoever. It is clear, though, that they weren't portrayed as a black racial group.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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smaneck

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Yes, he had a dark tan in the movie

You don't seriously think that was a tan do you?

as you might actually expect of someone who spends a good deal of time outside in the sun.

You actually think this was the man's real skin color?

What made you think he was black?

Because they blackened his skin and thickened his lips! Just compare those two pictures. I didn't think it was even it was a real actor. I thought the whole thing was animated.

Or perhaps you mean the Messenger that was kicked in the well. I think he was portrayed by a black actor, but there's no reason to think that the Persian army would have no blacks whatsoever. It is clear, though, that they weren't portrayed as a black racial group.

He was an ambassador, not a soldier It is principally the *leaders* of the Persian Empire that are depicted with dark skin.
 
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Eudaimonist

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You don't seriously think that was a tan do you?

If I didn't think that, I wouldn't have written that I thought so. Since I did write that, clearly I do think that.

It was not my honest impression on seeing the movie that Xerxes was black. But it is amazing how people read that into the character, and even when shown the original actor!


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I don't think it is correct to say that Narnia, Middle-earth, or the graphic novel version of Sparta are "racist". Different races are involved, no doubt, but they are instead stories written with an historical perspective, by which I mean, written as an historian might write them.
There was nothing "historical" about exalting all features as they pertain to Anglo-Saxon or European features while choosing to have those of Eastern or Middle-Eastern features be those who are the enemies/barbarians - seeing how often the roles were reversed. This is what smaneck was addressing in part - and what the OP earlier was focused on - for racism is often an unconscious action that others take when portraying groups and saying "But that's history" - for they often stereotyped other groups in their historical review while those who were a part of their culture ...if from a group they didn't like (i.e. Anglo-Indian, Blacks in England, Gypsies, etc. ...more shared in #5 / #7) ...are conveniently left out of the picture.

That's no different than talking on wanting to make a film or a book about U.S Soldiers during WWII who gave their lives - and yet SOLELY talking about white soldiers while not even considering the ones of differing ethnicities who were present giving their lives because the historian writing comes from a culture where they don't value certain groups in America - and feels that they are of no consequence.

An historian, studying the Spartan wars, might feel inclined to side in some way with the Spartans, perhaps admiring their bravery. Of course, an historian might side with the Athenians against the Spartans in some cases, admiring some aspects of Athenian culture.
True historians always address both sides of complicated issues - and never choose to distort the other side in order to appreciate one side they are for. It'd be like discussing black history: one does not have to demonize all within white culture when it comes to talking about the ways blacks held strong despite mob attacks from whites - and they don't claim all of the blacks in America were "good, working people" simply because they admire where many blacks were.

The same goes for the Spartans vs Persia gig...
In any case, I think that one should be very careful to toss the word "racist" around as a description of such worlds. In 300, races were hardly at issue. The Spartans did not hate the Persians because they were of a different race, and vice versa.
Hating others because of being a different race is not the sole way racism is played out - seeing that distorting how others are is/will always be one way prejudice occurs. The ways the Persians were depicted was not accurate - and the way that the Spartans were exalted wasn't either.

In Middle-earth, you could hardly blame any race for hating Orcs for their inherent evil -- they are stock bad guys. However, racial tensions between Elves and Dwarves show a promising hint of resolution in a positive direction. This is a profoundly anti-racist message!


eudaimonia,

Mark
What occurred between Elves and Dwarves is wonderful and a good message - but as said before, it still does NOTHING in regards to how others deemed enemies (like the Haredim) who appeared Eastern/Persian were placed in the negative - while ZERO people in Middle Earth were of color or looking like other ethnic groups outside of European perspectives. The message inherent in that is that what is white is beautiful/able to save - while that which looks Eastern is what needs to be avoided...even as there is reconciliation between groups.

This is really no different than what happens today - for in Britain and Scotland (European), you had groups fighting each other ...and it was amazing to have times of reconciliation between them - and yet for both groups, if you were dark in complexion or African, you were deemed "inferior" to that which was white.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Got ya.

Appreciate the information - although it doesn't really address the OP issue of why others within English culture were not represented in LOTR when it came to the diversity always present in England.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The Narnians are depicted as virtuous light-skinned Europeans whereas the Calormen, separated from Narnia by a desert are caricatures of Middle-easterners are depicted as dark-skinned, long-bearded and turbaned, and speaking a flowery language in imitation of Persian..
That would seem to be a sign of the times the men lived in when it came to how they interpreted that which was negative to be Middle-Eastern or dark-skinned.
CS Lewis derived their name from the Latin word for 'heat.' The Calormens worship Tash, a demonic god.
Indeed..

I'm not sure if he even saw racism as a problem
The reality of racism is that many struggling with it don't realize they have it when it comes to where they distort groups...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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But here is the problem. The Persians and the Greeks were not different races, they are both Indo-Europeans. Yet the Persians are depicted as black in the movie. How can that not be racist?
Technically, there's only one race - the Human race - and within that one race come differing ethnicities/ethnic groups. But what's interesting is to see the stereotypes.

As said before, I find it fascinating that people say the Persians should've been black/with tans while the Greeks were not - and yet they don't have ANY idea on how the Greeks and other Indo-Europeans had DARK skin within their own ranks. If the film had shown the Greeks with dark skin as well, that would have made a world of difference since that was a historical reality - and as said before:

Gxg (G²);63494344 said:
People often stereotype based on color alone..and there are similar dynamics that've occurred in the history of the U.S. During the turn of the 20th century, those English and Germans living in NYC and Chicago hated everybody that came off the boat, and Asians too. Everybody that wasn't them. Initially, the first European immigrants that came over had to push the Native Americans out of their own land into tiny little reservations. Then, these English and German folks were hateful toward the Italians and other Southern Europeans, as well as the Irish, Scottish, Chinese, Poles, Greek, etc. What I found interesting while watching a small documentary on Greeks coming to America way back in the early 1900s was that the Greeks were bunched in with the Chinese ethnic group in Florida. And up North, they were all bunched together as dark-skinned groups - Italians and Greeks. The KKK actually was after the Greeks, too. The blacks, of course.

It took quite some time for all of these groups to acclimate to this country and the ones that had been there longest to get used to them and finally they assimilated. ..but to see the ways that people stereotyped others based on how they looked was a trip. For more, one can look up the book/work entitled Austin Lunch. :) It's a nice story about a Greek immigrant family during the 1920s or so. Additionally, one can investigate a documentary entitled The Journey. :)

Moreover, here's one link on the KKK and the Greeks:

And another...an excerpt:

They were stunned by the hate of Americans. "The scum of Europe," "depraved, brutal foreigners" they were called in print, taunted and jeered when they asked for work. In coffeehouses along the way, they heard of attacks on Greeks: the burning of Omaha's Greek Town and the routing of a gang of Greeks clearing sagebrush south of Boise, Idaho, by masked men on horses, whips and guns in their hands.8
...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It didn't stereotype Persian culture, it twisted it totally beyond recognition. I called it racist because the Persians are depicted as having dark skin, even with African features as opposed to the light-skin Greeks. In fact, both the Persian and Greeks were Indo-Europeans and there probably wasn't much difference in their skin color.
That I can understand - seeing how both Persians and Greeks had varying shades of color.

I always find it interesting whenever seeing Greek plays or Greek mythologies placed into film and it's always people who look extremely light-skinned playing the parts...and yet historically, you had other Greeks in depiction of crafts/art and pottery who were DARKER -
no Persian Emperor would have ever appeared half-naked, with head and beards shaved as they do in the movie. They wore long gowns and beards as any relief will tell you.
Some of it is similar to how all Africans were portrayed as wearing a lion cloth and jumping up/down all the time. Again, it's the nature of stereotype..

Not to mention that Sparta is treated as a bastion of freedom and Persia as a slave society. Cyrus the Great, founder of the Persian Empire, was the first ruler in history to abolish slavery. That was not entirely maintained by Darius but do I really need to say anything about slavery in Sparta? Did you notice that when Leonidas is said to have graduated from the boys training barracks, his last act was supposedly to kill a wolf with his bear hands? Actually boys 'graduated' by getting away with killing one of the helot slaves.
Preaching to the Choir - as I'm aware of how, unlike the Greeks, the Persian side had no slaves) - and Slavery was abolished in the empire by Cyrus. And for more info, as it concerns the issue of democracy, Dr. De Sauza in his Essential Histories, `The Greek And Persian Wars` writes the Persians show of respect and tolerance for other religions was a trademark of ancient Iran.

However, Athenians and Spartans enslaved and demolished other Greek islands who had not participated in their wars against the Persians, or some who had participated, but were on the Persian side. Not many remember the islands of Chios and Lesbos abandoning the Greek ethnic kin and joining ship with Persians at some point, due to the severe tyranny that existed in Athens and Sparta and Ionia (Persian: Yauna). Not many remember to give any mention of Sparta demolishing and terrorising their neighbours for their own benefit, or the rise of a brutal Athenian Empire who according to Dr. Philip de Sauza, “The Athenians had no problem subjugating other nations…”

For more information, one can go to the following to investigate Dr. Philip de Sauza's works:

https://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/h...lse&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&ui=1&os_ver=6.1.1.0</DIV>
Primarily because of what they do with their relative skin color. However, what the movie is most guilty of is Orientalism, depicting Middle East culture as effeminate, static, emotional, and inferior to the masculine, rational, and superior West.

Since Herodotus, who told this story in the first place, exalted the Greeks over the Persians, I can hardly blame the movie for that. Unfortunately, the movie did so in ways that reinforce our current prejudices, not those of Herodotus.
Spot on - and sadly, it's amazing to see how often Orientalism has done a lot of damage in understandings of cultural history. Not many wish to remember how warrior like the Persians were...and I find it interesting that Persians actually had very impressive armor /tatics to make up for where other things may've been weak.

And when it comes to depicting the Persians as emotional or unstable, I can't help but find that highly ironic. In example, one would have to forget about all the mess that ended up following that battle with the Greeks - from the other wars they fought with one another (and their harshness toward others - Spartan society and Trojans against others) to the idolatry, sexual immorality and a host of other things. The ancient Mediterranean cultures were, on the whole, rather tolerant in sexual matters. In classical Greece, for example, sex was seen as an elementary life force, and all sexual impulses were therefore accepted as basically good. In fact, various gods and goddesses of fertility, beauty, and sexual pleasure were worshipped in special temples or on special occasions, often with orgiastic rites. The Greeks also believed that virtually all of their gods led vigorous and varied sex lives. Therefore they considered it only proper for mortals to follow this divine example. The Greeks thought so little of sexual abstinence that their language did not even have a special word for "chastity." Instead, they devoted themselves to what they called hedone, i.e. sensual pleasure in all its manifestations.

There are many scholars on both sides who've noted that the Persians often had times where pride caused them to miss key opportunities in battle where they didn't need to (EVEN when they had good technology and things to counter-balance where they may've been weak military wise). I like what one individual noted wisely when it came to why Greeks came to see themselves as superior to the Persians - even though both had good/bad aspects going for them.

There are many excellent historians who've done amazing work in addressing the cultural history of the Persians. Dr. Roman Ghirshman (more shared here, here, here, and here) is amongst my favorites - as he's a French archeologist of Ukranian origin, one of the pioneers of archeological research in Persia where he spent almost thirty years excavating numerous sites. He was mainly interested in the archeological ruins of Iran, specifically Teppe Gian, Teppe Sialk, Bagram in Afghanistan, Bishapur in Fars, and Susa. Really enjoyed his books which have been very on point ..as he has over 300 papers and 20 books published and Ghirshman was one of the most prolific and respected experts on ancient Iran.

Glad for the work he and others have done for a long time showing how beautiful Persia was and the ways other groups within it - small and og = often benefited from things, even though it wasn't perfect (and of course, what nation is).
Persians were absolutists, there is no question of that. But absolutism and tyranny are two very different things. Tyranny in ancient Greece meant to seize power illegally. The believed absolutism was the most just form of government because only by the ruler not being beholden to anyone could the common people hope to receive justice in relationship to the aristocracy. The people in most of the territories they conquered seem to have agreed. The Jews certainly appreciated them. Isaiah 45 refers to Cyrus as the messiah because he redeems Israel from captivity in Babylon. They not only allowed them to return to Palestine and rebuild their temple, they even provide them with the resources to do so! Aside from the Greek colonies of Anatolia, most people seemed to like Persian rule and found it a great relief after the Babylonians and the Assyrians. Democracy, they would not have understood. Since democracy at the time was limited to a few Greek city-states, I doubt if it would have been taken seriously as an alternative. You certainly couldn't operate an empire that way!
:clap::thumbsup:

For the times they lived in, it was more effective to have an Empire that gave just rule and had just rulers to represent the people - and the Greeks never truly practiced democracy as they claimed.


But let's not overlook the fact that The 300 is the conflict between Sparta and the Persians, not Athens and Persia. Sparta was no democracy, nor did they value democracy or private property.
Athens had MANY similarities to Sparta when it came to actions..

Democracy was only possible in relatively small political units where people knew one another face to face. It would have been impossible to run an empire on that basis.
I agree...
 
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smaneck

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If I didn't think that, I wouldn't have written that I thought so. Since I did write that, clearly I do think that.

It was not my honest impression on seeing the movie that Xerxes was black. But it is amazing how people read that into the character, and even when shown the original actor!

When the original actor bears to resemblance to the character they are playing, yeah. I think any reasonable person would see this looking at the two pictures.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I agree. I certainly didn't stop my son from reading those books when he was six, but when he got to a Boy and His Horse, we had a little talk.
Was the talk effective - or did it not really matter?

I've noticed many times that I can't have certain conversations on certain topics with others because it seems that the moment you even mention cultural sensitivity, it's assumed you're "race-baiting" instead of having intellectual discussion on where ethnic portrayals make a difference - and some things may've been left out or ignored..

With Lewis and Tolkien, as much as I'd love for my kids to read them, I don't have any intention for them to remain ignorant on how things were during the times they wrote - and I don't intend for them to grow up thinking that good things coming out of resources means that there are nothing wrong with those resources that could've been improved. One of my younger sisters noted how she was struggling with the fact that kids born in the Millenials/ Millennial Generation do not have a sense of importance in knowing cultural diversity - for they grow up thinking that culture has no difference...whereas previous generations (especially in Black/Hispanic culture) did not have that mindset since they understood well how often representations of groups negatively were intentional - and fought against that.
 
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smaneck

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Gxg (G²);63499404 said:
Was the talk effective - or did it not really matter?

Well, he was six years old at the time so he pretty much accepted anything I said.

One of my younger sisters noted how she was struggling with the fact that kids born in the Millenials/ Millennial Generation do not have a sense of importance in knowing cultural diversity - for they grow up thinking that culture has no difference...

And that is partly because we have come so far. The Millennials take multi-culturalism for granted. They take things like interracial marriages for granted. My own son is bi-racial and I doubt if he even thinks about it that much. It is no accident that this is the generation that elected Obama as president. For them, his skin color was a non-issue.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Well, he was six years old at the time so he pretty much accepted anything I said.
.
Good time to train them..

I'm surprised so many kids today don't even know who Martin Luther King is - or what the Reconstruction era and colonialism was about. And it makes me grateful I was trained continually to be aware of those things..
And that is partly because we have come so far. The Millennials take multi-culturalism for granted. They take things like interracial marriages for granted. My own son is bi-racial and I doubt if he even thinks about it that much. It is no accident that this is the generation that elected Obama as president. For them, his skin color was a non-issue
There's a level where I'm glad we've come so far - and yet at the same time, I'm saddened that people have forgotten where we came from.
 
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smaneck

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Gxg (G²);63499929 said:
There's a level where I'm glad we've come so far - and yet at the same time, I'm saddened that people have forgotten where we came from.

As a historian I have to agree, but there is something to say about the fact Millennials are so color-blind. Good thing, because most of them aren't white!
 
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Gxg (G²)

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As a historian I have to agree, but there is something to say about the fact Millennials are so color-blind. Good thing, because most of them aren't white!
Being color-blind probably wouldn't be the best term for it - as there's no real such thing in practicality when it comes to choosing to be "color-blind" as if ethnic background cannot and does not make a difference...although as it concerns being multicultural/culturally sensitive, that is one of the benefits that I'm glad Millennials have learned to develop/grow up with - even as others advocate for the flaw of being "color-blind".....especially when considering the development of our nation (or others) and not seeing where certain ethnic groups were treated negatively because of associations - and then suddenly deemed to be "the same" when it came to avoiding dealing with issues because it was easier to assimilate them in rhetoric as if they were on the same level with treatment so that you'd not have to be honest with how many things went down......and seeing how they still impact us today.

When people say "I'm color blind, it doesn't matter!!" and then they act as if it's not the case that certain groups are lacking in representation - or avoid where other groups have struggled with attaining respect on many things, that's a problem. And being a history buff as well as having family/friends who are historians, it's something that needs to be dealt with.

And sadly, many Millennials have fallen into that...

 
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smaneck

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Gxg (G²);63501583[/QUOTE said:
When people say "I'm color blind, it doesn't matter!!" and then they act as if it's not the case that certain groups are lacking in representation - or avoid where other groups have struggled with attaining respect on many things, that's a problem. And being a history buff as well as having family/friends who are historians, it's something that needs to be dealt with.

And sadly, many Millennials have fallen into that...

I know what your saying but as someone who lives in Mississippi where we still have racially motivated murders, there are worse things than being color-blind.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I know what your saying but as someone who lives in Mississippi where we still have racially motivated murders, there are worse things than being color-blind.
Not ignorant of worse things in existence like being color-blind - seeing that I've lived in the South my entire life (i.e. Louisiana, North Carolina, Tennessee and in Georgia for 16yrs) - with family from Mississippi as well. We've seen racially motivated murders - and thus, I'd note that since it seems you may've assumed where you are the only aware of racially motivated murders or the issue of racially charged crimes.

Color-Blindness leads to many of the insensitivities that go alongside racially charged injustices - and thinking them of no consequence. I still recall what occurred at Jenna Six - and other times in Georgia mess went down but NO ONE said anything about the abuse that occurred because people didn't think much of it.
 
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But here is the problem. The Persians and the Greeks were not different races, they are both Indo-Europeans. Yet the Persians are depicted as black in the movie. How can that not be racist?

Are you referring to this guy?

Xerxes-in-300.jpg


He was played by this actor:

4th+Annual+Los+Angeles+Italia+Film+Fashion+5bm-X65Qimll.jpg


Yes, he had a dark tan in the movie, as you might actually expect of someone who spends a good deal of time outside in the sun.


There was actually an excellent article on the subject that seemed fascinating - from the perspective of someone with Greek Ancestry:

 
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