The historical argument against universal reconciliation?

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I'm wondering when universal reconciliation in the form of hell being a "corrective" thing rather than eternal punishment was confirmed.

AFAIK, most orthodox denominations of Christianity reject universal reconciliation. The predominant view at this time, I believe, is ECT.

I was talking to someone on Twitter about this and he seems to think,

Modern Bible lexicons all do this. To crack the case you have to rewind to lexicographers prior to Emperor Justinian and the rise to dominance of the endless view of hell. There you'll find the original range of meaning.

Is this true? Have all our lexicons been tainted?

This was said in the context of Matthew 25:46, which states, "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life," I stated, "If the punishment is not permanent then eternal life isn't either."

I understand that the predominant view of ECT has not always been the predominant view and that there have been multiple views that have been entertained in early church history including universalism and annihilationism. My question is when universalism was considered tabboo.

I'd appreciate hearing from folks like @ArmyMatt and other Orthodox folks as I understand they put a lot of weight on Origen and reject Augustine, but anyone who knows something about the topic is free to chime in.

 

[ArmyMatt]

sorry, as a personal rule, I don’t post outside of TAW.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

sorry, as a personal rule, I don’t post outside of TAW.

You should have PMed me to tell me that... >.<

 

[ArmyMatt]

You should have PMed me to tell me that... >.<

yeah, but since I was tagged in the post, I thought I should respond on here.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I don't know what ECT is ("eternal conscious torment?"), but I would imagine that at all points in church history there have been personal variations in opinion, if not official dogma.

I suppose none of us like the idea of an eternal Hell, except perhaps for those tyrants who treated other people like expendable rubbish - Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc.

After all why shouldn't they pay for it?

But unfortunatly Christ is the one who actually spoke the most about Hell being eternal.

To start with God is eternal, so anybody who has died and is now in the spiritual realm is faced with the overbearing and inescapable fact of His burning presence which will never end.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I'm wondering when universal reconciliation in the form of hell being a "corrective" thing rather than eternal punishment was confirmed.

AFAIK, most orthodox denominations of Christianity reject universal reconciliation. The predominant view at this time, I believe, is ECT.

I was talking to someone on Twitter about this and he seems to think,



Is this true? Have all our lexicons been tainted?

This was said in the context of Matthew 25:46, which states, "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life," I stated, "If the punishment is not permanent then eternal life isn't either."

I understand that the predominant view of ECT has not always been the predominant view and that there have been multiple views that have been entertained in early church history including universalism and annihilationism. My question is when universalism was considered tabboo.

I'd appreciate hearing from folks like @ArmyMatt and other Orthodox folks as I understand they put a lot of weight on Origen and reject Augustine, but anyone who knows something about the topic is free to chime in.

Maybe look into Pope Gregory I and the doctrine of purgatory.
Blessings

 

[Aaron112]

Is this true? Have all our lexicons been tainted?

Yes.

I'm wondering when universal reconciliation in the form of hell being a "corrective" thing rather than eternal punishment was confirmed.

When? It was never confirmed.
It was shown all along to be contrary all along to Scripture.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Yes.

Based on what? Like why do you know better than all the people who work very hard to make a lexicon?

 

[Aaron112]

Based on what? Like why do you know better than all the people who work very hard to make a lexicon?

With all Yahweh's Pleasure, with Jesus' Testimony,
little children, infants, as The Creator's Good Pleasure Is, as Jesus Himself Says in the Bible ,
know by Revelation from Yahweh, and as
Jesus Himself Says, Yahweh is Well Pleased to HIDE from so-called "people who work very hard" , when and if and how He chooses.

None-the-less, as Yahweh Is Pleased so to do, they do not get everything wrong, but everything , as written, must be tested by the believers before accepting anything (this includes all the fraudulent ndes which delude millions or even billions of people on earth)....

 

[Diamond7]

I'm wondering when universal reconciliation in the form of hell being a "corrective" thing rather than eternal punishment was confirmed.

That sounds like purgatory.

Dante Alighieri: An Italian poet and author of "The Divine Comedy," an epic poem that vividly depicts Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven, and has had a profound influence on Christian understanding of the afterlife.

 

[Aaron112]

That sounds like purgatory.

Dante Alighieri: An Italian poet and author of "The Divine Comedy," an epic poem that vividly depicts Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven, and has had a profound influence on Christian understanding of the afterlife.

Another myth but with an easier history to unravel.

 

[Diamond7]

Another myth but with an easier history to unravel.

It is not a myth in the traditional sense but a significant work of allegorical poetry and theological commentary. While "The Divine Comedy" incorporates elements from classical mythology, Christian theology, and medieval beliefs, it is a work of fiction and imagination crafted by Dante to convey moral, spiritual, and political messages. It uses allegorical characters and vivid imagery to explore themes such as divine justice, the nature of sin and virtue, the Christian afterlife, and the role of faith and redemption.

 

[Aaron112]

Not just a myth, but a false gospel, restricted on this forum to the controversial section.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm wondering when universal reconciliation in the form of hell being a "corrective" thing rather than eternal punishment was confirmed.
AFAIK, most orthodox denominations of Christianity reject universal reconciliation. The predominant view at this time, I believe, is ECT.
I was talking to someone on Twitter about this and he seems to think,
Is this true? Have all our lexicons been tainted?
This was said in the context of Matthew 25:46, which states, "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life," I stated, "If the punishment is not permanent then eternal life isn't either."
I understand that the predominant view of ECT has not always been the predominant view and that there have been multiple views that have been entertained in early church history including universalism and annihilationism. My question is when universalism was considered tabboo.
I'd appreciate hearing from folks like @ArmyMatt and other Orthodox folks as I understand they put a lot of weight on Origen and reject Augustine, but anyone who knows something about the topic is free to chime in.

I have been a Christian since LBJ was president, although I attended Sunday School periodically since FDR, and I never heard of ECT until I joined this forum about 2 decades ago. I don't rely on the ECF as much as I rely on the Jewish Encyclopedia.
Before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of fiery punishment which they called both Sheol and Gehenna.

GEHENNA (Hebr. שׁאול; Greek, Γέεννα)​

Kaufmann Kohler, Ludwig Blau​

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. ​

... A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Ḥag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud.​

Judgment. ​

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). … They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). ​

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a). As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; ); comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). ​

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b.) Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b). ​

Sin and Merit.​

It is frequently said that certain sins will lead man into Gehenna. The name "Gehenna" itself is explained to mean that unchastity will lead to Gehenna (; 'Er. 19a); so also will adultery, idolatry, pride, mockery, hypocrisy, anger, etc. (Soṭah 4b, 41b; Ta'an. 5a; B. B. 10b, 78b; 'Ab. Zarah 18b; Ned. 22a). Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech (Shab. 33a; Enoch, xxvii.); who always follows the advice of his wife (B. M. 59a); who instructs an unworthy pupil (Ḥul. 133b); who turns away from the Torah (B. B. 79a; comp. Yoma 72b). For further details see 'Er. 18b, 101a; Sanh. 109b; Ḳid. 81a; Ned. 39b; B. M. 19a. ​

On the other hand, there are merits that preserve man from going to hell; e.g., philanthropy, fasting, visiting the sick, reading the Shema' and Hallel, and eating the three meals on the Sabbath (Giṭ. 7a; B. B. 10a; B. M. 85a; Ned. 40a; Ber. 15b; Pes. 118a; Shab. 118a). Israelites in general are less endangered (Ber. 10a) than heretics, or, according to B. B. 10a, than the heathen. Scholars (Ḥag. 27a; comp. Men. 99b and Yoma 87a), the poor, and the pious (Yeb. 102b) are especially protected. Three classes of men do not see the face of hell: those that live in penury, those suffering with intestinal catarrh, and those that are pressed by their creditors ('Er. 41b). It would seem that the expressions "doomed to hell" and "to be saved from hell" must be interpreted hyperbolically. A bad woman is compared to Gehenna in Yeb. 63b. On the names of Gehenna see 'Er. 19a; B. B. 79a; Sanh. 111b; et al. ​

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

​