The Hebrew word Et

[Yitzchak]

For goodness sake - both of you read Philippians!

o.k. I will do it. Be right back.

 

[Yitzchak]

Php 2:6 Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God.
Php 2:7 Instead he gave up everything and became a slave, when he became like one of us.
Php 2:8 Christ was humble. He obeyed God and even died on a cross.
Php 2:9 Then God gave Christ the highest place and honored his name above all others.
Php 2:10 So at the name of Jesus everyone will bow down, those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.
Php 2:11 And to the glory of God the Father everyone will openly agree, "Jesus Christ is Lord!"

Thank you Heber.

 

[Lulav]

Lulav, read on to Philippians...

I can't believe I just spent a half hour on a post and it disappeared! Ok, the condensed version..........

Ok, again, are you speaking of this portion?

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation , and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Form = MORPH - an alternative shape or form

this word is only found one other place in the NT, in Mark 16

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked , and went into the country.

'Another' = Heteros - [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva] one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Which was clearly after the resurrection.

So, basically what Paul is saying here actually is a good example of what the writer of 2 John was warning about, that CM quoted:

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[Lulav]

In that vein, Paul told those at Corinth the first time he wrote them this:

For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Then when he wrote them again he told them this:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And those at Collasia he told:

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God

And we find that word translated Image is 'ikon'as b. Let's go to the same source as before to see how it's used, we will go to Mark since that is where I found the word 'Morph' used.

bring me a penny, that I may see it. 16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

'ikone' = image Also used in Revelation, In direct regard to the 'beast',

Revelation 13:14-15; Revelation 14:9; Revelation 14:11; Revelation 15:2; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:4

IN the beginning G-d said that he would create man in his image, not create himself in man's image.

 

[Lulav]

Surely the term 'Jewish Church' is an oxymoron?

How so?

Not sure how you are taking this, I was speaking of the Jerusalem sect of Yeshua's talmidim.

 

[Lulav]

So to clarify. You are saying G-d was not nailed to the cross? You are saying that the son of G-d was nailed to the cross ?

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying.

G-d WAS NOT NAILED TO ANY CROSS OR ANYTHING ELSE

Do you believe in the Trinity ? The Deity of Yeshua ?

I answered you in post 57.

 

[Heber]

How so?

Not sure how you are taking this, I was speaking of the Jerusalem sect of Yeshua's talmidim.

If you cannot work it out you astound me! I take it that you know what an oxymoron is?

 

[yonah_mishael]

CM & Heber,

If you'll remember, we had a discussion about Paul's views of the Torah some time back, and I remarked there that it stuns me that Messianics are not classed among the cults because of the high number of heretical arguments that make their way into their system. The denial of the Trinity (a fundamental doctrine of Christian faith) is common to many cults (Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, etc.). These groups have been labeled heretical because of their rejection of established Christian teachings. What's putting the Church off from labeling the Messianics among them? These are obviously not Christians. So, why are the mainstream Evangelicals funneling money into their organizations today?

Of course, Jews for Jesus is different, since it isn't truly part of the "Messianic" movement and is actually directed by an Evangelical group. This keeps their teachings strictly Christian with only a veneer of Jewish polish. There's certainly no need to apply the label of "heretic" to them, but why not give it to those who openly reject what the Church teaches? Is this, perhaps, the Apostasy that Paul thought of in 2 Thess 2? (Not seriously asking, since I don't believe that Paul was really prophesying anything there... as a non-Messianic Jew.)

Regards,
Yonah

 

[ContraMundum]

Heresy is a controversial or novel change to a system of beliefs, especially a religion, that conflicts with established dogma, and since the dogma wasn't established until Nicaea, then your rebuttal doesn't hold.

The church did not establish the dogma- Christ did. The church merely affirmed it when confronted with error. This is of course one of the church's jobs.

The gentile 'church' did, but not the Jewish church.

A division that I don't think it warranted.

That is your choice to believe that, I don't, there is too much historical evidence that wasn't totally surpressed.

There is no evidence of some conspiracy that suppressed "Jewish" understandings of the NT.

Taught in the 'NT'.
Believed by all Christians? I guess that depends on how you define 'all' and 'Christians'.

The first point we can prove- but you actually have to believe in the NT before it is worth engaging in discussion for proof of the deity of Jesus. I am reading that you no longer believe in the NT, so why discuss it at all?

Who's Arius?

The arch heretic who denied the deity of Jesus.

I believe the first century teachings of Messiah.

I'm not sure where you get your beliefs- but I sure can't find it in church history in the 1stC.

Why are you quoting this? that doesn't describe what I believe, are you accusing me of this?

I believe your sources need to be peer-reviewed, and John's warning still holds true today. I not accusing you of anything- but I'd like to check on your teachers.

 

[ContraMundum]

CM & Heber,

If you'll remember, we had a discussion about Paul's views of the Torah some time back, and I remarked there that it stuns me that Messianics are not classed among the cults because of the high number of heretical arguments that make their way into their system. The denial of the Trinity (a fundamental doctrine of Christian faith) is common to many cults (Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, etc.). These groups have been labeled heretical because of their rejection of established Christian teachings. What's putting the Church off from labeling the Messianics among them? These are obviously not Christians. So, why are the mainstream Evangelicals funneling money into their organizations today?

I'm not sure it is that easy, as many Messianic groups hold to evangelical theology (which is within orthodoxy) while others are a doctrinal train-wreck.

But, you're making a very valid point.

For years some Messianics have been calling orthodox Christians heretics, but the churches don't seem to want to respond because those same sects have a shelf life as long as the earthly life of their leaders. When the leadership dies or gets caught out doing some sin, the followers tend to leave and look for another sect and the cult dissolves. In other words, they are not worth the trouble and no one notices them anyway.

However, now some heretical sects are becoming established, and in due course I'm sure someone will point out the heresy to the public, but I'm hoping it is another Messianic group who does it.

One thing is certain. All the Christological heresies have been thought of already, and have been condemned. The framework is there, all we need to do is name the new followers of the old heresies.

Of course, Jews for Jesus is different, since it isn't truly part of the "Messianic" movement and is actually directed by an Evangelical group. This keeps their teachings strictly Christian with only a veneer of Jewish polish. There's certainly no need to apply the label of "heretic" to them, but why not give it to those who openly reject what the Church teaches? Is this, perhaps, the Apostasy that Paul thought of in 2 Thess 2? (Not seriously asking, since I don't believe that Paul was really prophesying anything there... as a non-Messianic Jew.)

Regards,
Yonah

I think the channeling of money to evangelists who target Jews is basically based on some ideas about eschatology that teach that Jesus won't return until the Jews are converted. I think poverty is a better candidate for my money and efforts.

 

[Heber]

I can't believe I just spent a half hour on a post and it disappeared! Ok, the condensed version..........

Ok, again, are you speaking of this portion?



Form = MORPH - an alternative shape or form

this word is only found one other place in the NT, in Mark 16




'Another' = Heteros - [FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different [/FONT]

[/FONT][/FONT]
Which was clearly after the resurrection.

So, basically what Paul is saying here actually is a good example of what the writer of 2 John was warning about, that CM quoted:

Lulav,

At least try to understand the Christian faith (YM does and makes lots of right contextual connections, even if we do not agree with him at times) if you are intent on disproving it! Your very selective and sometimes out of context quotes do nothing to support your argument.

 

[Heber]

YM Given that there is, at this point in time, no systematic theology or statement of belief for Messianics it is clear to see why there are so many heresies. A number of academics are working on this but it will be a few years yet, I suppose. Read Dr R Harvey's survey of Messianic theologies - details are listed on the first 'sticky' in my list of books about the subject and you wil see my point.

Lots of Christians see the movement as a 'cult' or 'sect' and its teachings as heresies, but that because many denominations, at least in the UK, are institutionally anti Israel or anti Semitic and these views colour their thinking towards us. Most Christians I address on the subject are then hungry for more (and often ask why their own leader doesn't tell them these things) but that is probably because I, like CM and others, have sensible, balanced views wherein people can be shown in their Bibles that what we teach is correct.

 

[Lulav]

Lulav,

At least try to understand the Christian faith (YM does and makes lots of right contextual connections, even if we do not agree with him at times) if you are intent on disproving it! Your very selective and sometimes out of context quotes do nothing to support your argument.

Heber, I am disappointed, I didn't think you'd sink this low. If you don't want to answer me, then just don't but to use the comparison you did, that is beneath you.

Not that it matters, but I have over 40 years of Christian study. I was raised in a church, my father was an ordained minister, Grandmother, Sunday School teacher (she was a Jewish believer), my step father was an assistant pastor in a very large church for many years. Not to mention my time in a private Christian school (nonCatholic).
I myself have studied at Yeshiva and theological institutions and even have a ordination for whatever that's worth. I have spent countless hours studying the Bible and the majority of my large library contains books related , mostly Christian, some Jewish.

To insinuate, no, declare that I don't know what I am speaking of is uncalled for and really leaves me shaking my head.

This coupled with your other post to me shows me that I am wasting my time trying to converse with you when all you offer is put downs and flames.

You made it a point to chastise others in how they treat 'visitors' to this forum, you should take that same advise for yourself as to how you treat a fellow sister.

Good Day.

 

[Yitzchak]

Heber, I am disappointed, I didn't think you'd sink this low. If you don't want to answer me, then just don't but to use the comparison you did, that is beneath you.

Not that it matters, but I have over 40 years of Christian study. I was raised in a church, my father was an ordained minister, Grandmother, Sunday School teacher (she was a Jewish believer), my step father was an assistant pastor in a very large church for many years. Not to mention my time in a private Christian school (nonCatholic).
I myself have studied at Yeshiva and theological institutions and even have a ordination for whatever that's worth. I have spent countless hours studying the Bible and the majority of my large library contains books related , mostly Christian, some Jewish.

To insinuate, no, declare that I don't know what I am speaking of is uncalled for and really leaves me shaking my head.

This coupled with your other post to me shows me that I am wasting my time trying to converse with you when all you offer is put downs and flames.

You made it a point to chastise others in how they treat 'visitors' to this forum, you should take that same advise for yourself as to how you treat a fellow sister.

Good Day.

You sound like an interesting person. I hope that I did not say anything to give the impression that I was disrespecting you.

 

[Heber]

Heber, I am disappointed, I didn't think you'd sink this low. If you don't want to answer me, then just don't but to use the comparison you did, that is beneath you.

Not that it matters, but I have over 40 years of Christian study. I was raised in a church, my father was an ordained minister, Grandmother, Sunday School teacher (she was a Jewish believer), my step father was an assistant pastor in a very large church for many years. Not to mention my time in a private Christian school (nonCatholic).
I myself have studied at Yeshiva and theological institutions and even have a ordination for whatever that's worth. I have spent countless hours studying the Bible and the majority of my large library contains books related , mostly Christian, some Jewish.

To insinuate, no, declare that I don't know what I am speaking of is uncalled for and really leaves me shaking my head.

This coupled with your other post to me shows me that I am wasting my time trying to converse with you when all you offer is put downs and flames.

You made it a point to chastise others in how they treat 'visitors' to this forum, you should take that same advise for yourself as to how you treat a fellow sister.

Good Day.

A Jamaican minister I used to know, with a very strong accent, once made a memorable opening to a key note speech by saying that he didn't have an accent - it was the ears of his hearers that had the accent.

You seem to ask some very odd questions and, as in the posts about Gentiles not belonging, some out of context questions and make some odd statements. You had difficulty in understanding the concept of Epiphany or that G_d works first with Jews and then with Gentiles throughout Scripture and counter my comments by speaking of something else etc and wonder why people get frustrated in having to explain basic things before going further. You sometimes give the impression that your knowledge is limited but you want to disprove all sorts of things. My plea was that you do some groundwork and then post. You are speedy to jump when others get something wrong about Judaism!

PS I don't think Yitzchak is a visitor! If you feel that I am flaming my signature asks that you report me.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Heber,

... all you offer is put downs and flames.

And here I thought this claim was to be laid only at my feet!

 

[Heber]

And here I thought this claim was to be laid only at my feet!

It seems that in my frustration I have joined the Club

 

[yonah_mishael]

It seems that in my frustration I have joined the Club

Frustration can get even the best of us (or the worst of us, in my case). Don't let it get you down. Accept the rebuke and move on.

 

[Heber]

Frustration can get even the best of us (or the worst of us, in my case). Don't let it get you down. Accept the rebuke and move on.

True. I'm not worried about it, but I have said to Lulav that if she feels I am flaming she should report me, as my signature suggests.

 

[ContraMundum]

A Jamaican minister I used to know, with a very strong accent, once made a memorable opening to a key note speech by saying that he didn't have an accent - it was the ears of his hearers that had the accent.

It should be noted that you can tell where a person is from or where they have spent long periods of time by their accents. The same rule applies to education. You can tell where a person is from or where they have been feeding by their academic "accent" too.