The Hebrew word Et

[Heber]

Do you not agree that this is nonsense? The fact that the poster put it on two different forums indicates that he's more interested in propagating his opinions than in hearing the truth about the issues. I have indeed laid these things out quite plainly in the past. I don't feel like opening up the issues again, and I don't think he's prepared to receive the rebuttal to the argument, since he obviously doesn't know Hebrew --- nor do I think he's interested in hearing out the issues. He's just interested in the convenience of easy teaching. I believe the NT called this "itching ears", people who want to hear things that make them feel good more than the truth of the matters.

Do we really have to deal with these things again and again? Can't someone do a little investigation on their own without having to be rebuked for ignorance and simply not knowing what they're talking about? It's disheartening to have to do this time and again. I just wish people would read the text of the Bible for what it says (whether they're Christian or Jewish) and just take it on its own words! I don't ask for anything more than that. Either be honest with the text or find something else to read.

I agree with the sentiment, just not the way you dealt with it . But as I said, maybe it is just the teacher / pastor in me that sees these things and is concerned to see people put down, regardless of who they are or whether they have made errors before. Not everyone is a linguist, as you clearly are, and so mistakes must abound in some posts, especially if they have copied the information from what was, to them, a reliable source. You do not, of course, have to post anything... unless you choose to.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I agree with the sentiment, just not the way you dealt with it . But as I said, maybe it is just the teacher / pastor in me that sees these things and is concerned to see people put down, regardless of who they are or whether they have made errors before. Not everyone is a linguist, as you clearly are, and so mistakes must abound in some posts, especially if they have copied the information from what was, to them, a reliable source. You do not, of course, have to post anything... unless you choose to.

I will agree that language teachers (which is what I am) tend to over-adjust in terms of how pedantic we get. We insist on accuracy in interpretations, not necessarily of EXACT understanding but at least in regards to how one uses the LANGUAGE to prove their point. I wouldn't mind if someone claimed that Jesus was the Aleph and the Tav (as in the Alpha and Omega), but it's another thing entirely to abuse the Hebrew language. It offends my senses, and as someone who is not a pastor in a church (or anything comparable), I just wish that it wasn't repeated over and over when the truth should be rather obvious.

No intention to argue with you.

 

[ContraMundum]

I think I have to agree with YM and ChavaK on this.

 

[Heber]

I will agree that language teachers (which is what I am) tend to over-adjust in terms of how pedantic we get. We insist on accuracy in interpretations, not necessarily of EXACT understanding but at least in regards to how one uses the LANGUAGE to prove their point. I wouldn't mind if someone claimed that Jesus was the Aleph and the Tav (as in the Alpha and Omega), but it's another thing entirely to abuse the Hebrew language. It offends my senses, and as someone who is not a pastor in a church (or anything comparable), I just wish that it wasn't repeated over and over when the truth should be rather obvious.

No intention to argue with you.

Nor me with you

 

[Yitzchak]

As far as I'm concerned, I think I've demonstrated my ability to be honest with the text. I don't mind if the Bible disagrees with me. I can understand the biblical positions and still hold my own (open-minded, liberal, accepting) opinions of the issues of pluralism and tolerance. As long as I understand where the writers were coming from, I believe I have the right to say NO. I just disagree with dogmatism and those who base their positions in outlandish argumentation. This is the most outlandish of arguments I've ever heard, and my only response is to say that anyone who would repeat this nonsense is completely illiterate in Hebrew and obviously disinterested in hearing from people who actually know better.

Your post is rude.

 

[Yitzchak]

Do you not agree that this is nonsense? The fact that the poster put it on two different forums indicates that he's more interested in propagating his opinions than in hearing the truth about the issues.

Here is my response to why I posted it in two different forums. This was posted earlier in this thread.

" I do. I figured it would have a different audience and different responses in this forum. Feel free to respond in both and be part of both discussions. "

 

[Yitzchak]

This could only come from someone who doesn't know Hebrew or Aramaic. In Aramaic, the same grammatical marker is written with yod-tav. I don't know what could possess to make an argument like this. It's just absurd.

I am not sure what Aramaic has to do with it since I referenced the ancient Hebrew as the basis for my conclusions. The ancient Hebrew came first and the Aramaic came much later. I am open to discussion about Aramaic if it has some relevance.



Obviously you have some history of some tired argument with someone else over a similar topic. I am not that person.

 

[Yitzchak]

Is this why post numbers have dropped?

I have not posted in this forum other than a few times many months ago or is it over a year ago now. Anyway , I thought it would be interesting to get a messianic perspective. Am I receiving that ? Because it is difficult to tell with the last post.

Anyway , whatever history of debates that this sub forum has, I am not a part of that history.

I am open to learning new things and even adjusting my thinking when cause is shown to do so. Random insults do not make a strong case.

 

[Yitzchak]

I was thinking of YM's immediate put down. It would have been more helpful to gently explain why the OP was in error and take the trouble to deal with it rather than insult their intelligence at the outset in a rather arrogant way.

I actually have a bigger problem with a tone that seems to lack a love of Torah study. I have no problem with being corrected by someone who knows something that I do not.

I love to study Hebrew and to study Torah. The response makes me wonder if that love of Hebrew and Torah is shared by the poster. I have come across many of the marvels of the Hebrew language and marveled. I am willing to risk getting some wrong ideas at times. That is a part of the learning process.

But the insulting response is not only rude , it lacks wisdom and patience.

Pro 18:12 Before destruction the heart of a man is haughty, and before honour goeth humility.
Pro 18:13 He that giveth answer before he heareth, it is folly and confusion unto him.

Those who are regulars on this sub forum need to decide how this community will entertain strangers/newcomers. But I would rather leave that to another discussion and stick to the one at hand.

Am I to understand that the view of this sub forum concerning my thread is it is wrong because they say so ? It is too much trouble to even get into it ?


I have to admit , I expected better. I at least expected to have an intelligent discussion with other believers who have at least an intermediate knowledge of Hebrew and an interest in such things.

 

[Yitzchak]

G-d was not nailed to a cross.

Yeshua is G-d.

 

[Yitzchak]

I agree. Yeshua died a very human death on the Cross - G_d didn't die. If G_d died who raised Yeshua from the dead?

G-d died a human death and not a complete death. G-d is Spirit. Yeshua is G-d and Yeshua was nailed to the cross.

 

[Yitzchak]

Be careful here. I can think of a few Christological heresies that could easily be crossed into on this topic.

Not my main focus here. Feel free to deal with them if they arise.

 

[Yitzchak]

How about something like this:

I think you will find that, in fact, in Aramaic, the same grammatical marker is written with yod-tav.

and then leave it for the original poster to further comment (I've known YM to be wrong on occasions). That way a channel is opened. To start and end with a direct put-down only breeds antagonism, words fly and people don't bother to post against such attitude problems.

Of course YM may not use my exact terminology but it is the intention behind it that counts - to point out an error, give the person a chance to defend what they have said and then explain in detail why it cannot be so.

I guess it's about being a teacher / pastor that means I see relational things rather differently

I have not studied Aramaic. I do know this much though. Aramaic came after Hebrew.Aramaic would be a secondary source. What the Hebrew says is the deciding issue as far as I am concerned. I would prefer to discuss the Hebrew. Espeacially the ancient Hebrew.

 

[Yitzchak]

I will agree that language teachers (which is what I am) tend to over-adjust in terms of how pedantic we get. We insist on accuracy in interpretations, not necessarily of EXACT understanding but at least in regards to how one uses the LANGUAGE to prove their point. I wouldn't mind if someone claimed that Jesus was the Aleph and the Tav (as in the Alpha and Omega), but it's another thing entirely to abuse the Hebrew language. It offends my senses, and as someone who is not a pastor in a church (or anything comparable), I just wish that it wasn't repeated over and over when the truth should be rather obvious.

No intention to argue with you.

You might want to change your mood indicator from mellow to whatever would more accurately describe your current mood. Mellow does not really fit your tone.

As for abusing the Hebrew language. A little more respect of the Hebrew from your end would be appreciated by me. I love the Hebrew language. Your tone in your posts cheapens it into something less than the sacred language that it is.

If you disagree with my conclusions , then a short response saying exactly why would be a good start. You have made several posts and still have not gotten around to making your point.

If your side of the argument is so self evident , then it should not be all that difficult for you to state it in a brief summary.

 

[Heber]

Yitzchak,

I remember you from way back (I've been on this forum for some years but under a different name for a large part of that time).

Whilst I may not agree with all that is in the OP, I have sought to support you against the strong views on your OP, as you will see in my posts, but I have no wish to argue with individual posters on that point because it will simply further derail the thread and cause more problems.

I am not at all sure that the vast majority of people on this forum would take issue with your right to share with us something you have found. Whether it is word perfect or not, whether in English, Hebrew or Aramaic is something that can be debated as people feel it necessary to comment, hopefully in a constructive way so that we can all learn more.

I see nothing in what has been posted thus far that should make you feel that you should leave the forum or CF - we all get into rough water at times because that is part and parcel of the way all fora work. Do not be discouraged by one sharp reaction.

 

[Yitzchak]

Yitzchak,

I remember you from way back (I've been on this forum for some years but under a different name for a large part of that time).

Whilst I may not agree with all that is in the OP, I have sought to support you against the strong views on your OP, as you will see in my posts, but I have no wish to argue with individual posters on that point because it will simply further derail the thread and cause more problems.

I am not at all sure that the vast majority of people on this forum would take issue with your right to share with us something you have found. Whether it is word perfect or not, whether in English, Hebrew or Aramaic is something that can be debated as people feel it necessary to comment, hopefully in a constructive way so that we can all learn more.

I see nothing in what has been posted thus far that should make you feel that you should leave the forum or CF - we all get into rough water at times because that is part and parcel of the way all fora work. Do not be discouraged by one sharp reaction.

Thank you. I plan to continue. If I need to learn something about the subject of the opening post , I am open to that.

 

[Yitzchak]

So back to the subject of the opening post...

My level of Hebrew is not fluent. I do not live in Israel and I do not speak Hebrew everyday. But I am not a complete novice either. I have been studying Hebrew for several years now.

Some of the basic concepts in my opening post though are not my original ideas. They come from Hebrew teachers who are fluent and have been teaching Hebrew for many years. Although I have added some of my own conclusions and observations to those ideas.

First , let's start with the distinction between Modern Hebrew and Ancient Hebrew. That is not my idea but comes from several learned sources. The Modern Hebrew letters are not the same as the ancient Hebrew letters. The ancient Hebrew letters were pictographs. Aleph was a picture of an ox head and Tav the picture of a marker which was the shape of a cross. These are not my ideas and can be researched by any who cares to do so.

Second , the ancient pictographs relate to the meaning of the words although it some cases it is not immediately obvious what the connection is and in others it is more obvious. The example of the word ben illustrates this.

Third, The Hebrew word Et is comprised of the two letters Aleph and Tav. It is a direct object marker.

Fourth, Et is the root word of OHT ( aleph , vav , tav ) which means marker in Hebrew.

Fifth , the fact that Aleph is the first letter of the alephbet and tav is the last letter is another idea that is well established. if the New Testament were written in Hebrew the passage that says Jesus is the Alpha and Omega would read Yeshua is the Aleph and the Tav. It is no crazy stretch to say yeshua is the Aleph and the Tav.


These are not my original ideas. These are taught by Hebrew scholars and are not really difficult concepts to understand.


I will stop with that for now and give people a chance to respond. I am interested to know whether there is disagreement about any of these since I consider them all to be obvious facts. I understand that almost everything is debated by some. But I am still curious to see where the strong disagreement is coming from on this subject.

 

[Yitzchak]

Another thing. I would assume that most , if not all , of the regular posters in this sub forum would be familiar with different methods of biblical exegesis if not by name , at least by practice.

Pardes , the Hebrew word for orchard is often used as an acronym for the four methods of interpretation. Peshat , drash , remez and sod. Again , not my original ideas here.

For example , in one of my other threads I asked if anyone had any insight into the different spellings of the word toledot as it appears in different verses. An example of remez. Big letters , small letters , missing letters , extra letters . Hints at deeper meanings within the Hebrew text.

There are deeper meanings to be found within the text and even within the Hebrew letters themselves. It is hardly original for me to attempt to find deeper meaning within the Hebrew words and letters of the biblical text.

If some have a bias against the very idea of attempting anything beyond the Peshat or obvious plain meaning of a text , the my post will not make any sense to them. For them , the word Et is just a word. Just a direct object marker and nothing more.

I understand that some may not agree with my conclusions. But I wonder if some disagree with even trying to interpret anything beyond the plain meaning of the text. I find that in the Charismatic forum with people asking why even care about the Hebrew. They say that if we have an English translation , we don't really need to look at the Hebrew.

Did I assume too much about this forum ? My expectation was that you would at least respect my attempt to delve into deeper levels of meaning in the Hebrew text even if you did not agree with all of my conclusions.

 

[Yitzchak]

So let me ask this question. Those who disagree with my conclusions about the Hebrew word Et. What meaning do you find in the word ET ?

 

[Heber]

Another thing. I would assume that most , if not all , of the regular posters in this sub forum would be familiar with different methods of biblical exegesis if not by name , at least by practice.

Pardes , the Hebrew word for orchard is often used as an acronym for the four methods of interpretation. Peshat , drash , remez and sod. Again , not my original ideas here.

For example , in one of my other threads I asked if anyone had any insight into the different spellings of the word toledot as it appears in different verses. An example of remez. Big letters , small letters , missing letters , extra letters . Hints at deeper meanings within the Hebrew text.

There are deeper meanings to be found within the text and even within the Hebrew letters themselves. It is hardly original for me to attempt to find deeper meaning within the Hebrew words and letters of the biblical text.

If some have a bias against the very idea of attempting anything beyond the Peshat or obvious plain meaning of a text , the my post will not make any sense to them. For them , the word Et is just a word. Just a direct object marker and nothing more.

I understand that some may not agree with my conclusions. But I wonder if some disagree with even trying to interpret anything beyond the plain meaning of the text. I find that in the Charismatic forum with people asking why even care about the Hebrew. They say that if we have an English translation , we don't really need to look at the Hebrew.

Did I assume too much about this forum ? My expectation was that you would at least respect my attempt to delve into deeper levels of meaning in the Hebrew text even if you did not agree with all of my conclusions.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that everyone on these fora think the same. We do not! May I suggest to you that as this thread has been totally derailed you re-start with a new thread with an identical OP (though a different title, to avoid confusion) and see how that works? As you have seen, Lulav and I have already raised a question about it that may be worth debate, at least Maybe YM or another will help with the Hebrew/Aramaic question now the fuss has died down.

PS It is always worth looking at the Hebrew and not just trusting the translator! Did you really expect the non-Messianic fora to agree with that (except, maybe, some who understand true purpose of good exegesis)?