The Headship Principle - Ordained positions ...

[ConcernedChristian]

Over the last few months our church has undergone a few changes. One of the things that I have successfully gotten people to accept is that women can be used in the role of deaconness - With that in mind, we are proceeding along the lines of re-defining the roles of elder and deacon.

Does anyone have ideas/opinions/advice on things such as:
The Headship principle - I think the Bible is clear that only males can serve in this function but ... What are your thoughts?
Ordination - Can women be ordained as deaconesses? From my reading, the Bible indicates no but ... What are your thoughts?

 

[thereselittleflower]

I have to agree with you . . the leadership roles in the Church are reserved for me . . starting with the 12 Apostles . .

Of course, the Catholic Church is very much authority conscious . . and if you want to look at the reasonings to support your position, I think if you came to One Bread One Body and asked for a thorough explanation of why the Catholic Church holds to these views, it will help you understand a solid basis for yours . .

Peace in Him!

 

[Momzilla]

Historically, there has been no such thing as a "deaconess". The office did exist for a while in the early church (before Orthodox and Catholics split), when it would have been unseemly for a male priest to go alone to visit a single woman. I don't believe there is any scriptural support for it, however.

 

[Philip]

I don't believe there is any scriptural support for it, however.

Is there Scriptural support for women helping in the Church? Absolutely.
Is there Scriptural support for women being ordained? No.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Is there Scriptural support for women helping in the Church? Absolutely.
Is there Scriptural support for women being ordained? No.

There isn't any scriptural support for groups of people splintering off and establishing their own authorities. Been happening all the time since the days of the Reformation. Seems to be some hypocritical things.

JMW

 

[Cordy]

. . the leadership roles in the Church are reserved for me . .

tee hee. That little typo gave me a chuckle, thereselittleflower. All church positions are reserved for you...

For those who are interested in this topic, I suggest "why not women" by Loren Cunningham and David. Joal Hamilton

 

[mindfull]

Why would anyone ordain someone who is APPLYING for the office ?
We could avoid lots of trouble if we didnt do that.
We could observe persons from birth , and be on the lookout for persons who would make good clergy, and encourage them in that direction.
Instead, here are the stats we are facing:
50 % of seminarians were sexually molested as children.
90 % of child molestors were sexually abused as children.
----mindfull june 10 20004 448 pm edt

 

[Crazy Liz]

Over the last few months our church has undergone a few changes. One of the things that I have successfully gotten people to accept is that women can be used in the role of deaconness - With that in mind, we are proceeding along the lines of re-defining the roles of elder and deacon.

Does anyone have ideas/opinions/advice on things such as:
The Headship principle - I think the Bible is clear that only males can serve in this function but ... What are your thoughts?
Ordination - Can women be ordained as deaconesses? From my reading, the Bible indicates no but ... What are your thoughts?

Does the Bible speak of ordination at all?

The Bible tells us that deacons were both men and women. It does not tell us the procedures used to install them. If different procedures were required for the installation of male and female deacons, I would expect to see that in scripture. I don't think your church would be violating scripture by using the same procedure to recognize and install deacons of either gender.

 

[Nickolai]

There was a thing called a deconess. But it's questionable whether it was a clergy position or more of just a Title for a person who helped the Priest in a situation where a Deacon shouldn't go.

 

[Nickolai]

50 % of seminarians were sexually molested as children.
90 % of child molestors were sexually abused as children.

Ok, Could you please post where these stats are from? And would you also try and find the percentage of Overall persons in the US that were sexually abused. It makes sense to me that this might follow the same ratio.

 

[Koey]

...women can be used in the role of deaconness ...re-defining the roles of elder and deacon.... What are your thoughts?

I find it interesting how Catholics say a pastor can only be chosen from among the celibates, which contradicts Paul, who allowed married overseers of the churches. Protestants in more recent history want to ordain women as elders, which also contradicts Paul. So who's right and who's wrong here?

Let's be honest here folks, we have all strayed from some biblical specifics. What does God really want? Or, perhaps He thinks we are all just too picky and isn't even worried about it.

 

[mindfull]

One of the best points of catholicism is that they can make changes.
---mindfull

 

[Nickolai]

I find it interesting how Catholics say a pastor can only be chosen from among the celibates, which contradicts Paul, who allowed married overseers of the churches. Protestants in more recent history want to ordain women as elders, which also contradicts Paul. So who's right and who's wrong here?

Let's be honest here folks, we have all strayed from some biblical specifics. What does God really want? Or, perhaps He thinks we are all just too picky and isn't even worried about it.

The Orthodox allow married priests and don't allow woman priests. We contradict in neither case you mentioned.

 

[katherine2001]

As Nikolai just pointed out, the Orthodox do allow priests to be married (as long as they are married before their ordination to the diaconate and then to the priesthood).

As far as deaconesses, I'm not sure the Church needs them. The main reason that they had them in the early church is that people were baptized in the nude. The deaconess did the triple immersion in the water and most of the annointing of the body with Chrism (the oil that is used only for annointing the body after Baptism). The deaconess did all but the different annointings on the head, which were done by the bishop or priest. Of course, by this time, the woman was wearing robes. I believe they may have also served the widows and virgins of the parish.

 

[Koey]

The Orthodox allow married priests and don't allow woman priests. We contradict in neither case you mentioned.

Please get it completely right! The Orthodox forbid married Bishops. Paul never did.

Jesus criticised those who wear flowing robes, love to take the high seats in the congregation and love grandious titles. This too seems to be completely ignored.

 

[Peter]

Orthodox Bishops can be married. However, they cannot be tonsured as a Bishop if their wife is still breathing oxygen. (This is a critcal point, as we Orthodox do not see death as an end to marriage. For this reason, widowers who remarry are not allowed to hold office as they would then be the husband of more than one wife.)

Peace.

Peter

 

[Rev. Smith]

With full awareness of Paul's stand on women. It is well known that women were Prophets (how could they prophesy if they couldn't speak? Maybe the wrote it down..).

2nd John is addressed to "The Lady", as well as:

Phoebe Rom 16:1 minister/President chruch Cenchrea

Priscilla Rom 16:3 Teacher/chruch leader

Mary Rom 16:6 church worker

Persis Rom 16:6 church worker

Junia Rom 16:7 Apostle

Tryphosa Rom 16:12 church worker

Julia Rom 16:15 saint

Euodia Philipians 4 co-worker of Paul

Syntyche Philipians 4 co-worker of Paul

Apphia Philemon 2 house chruch leader

Lydia of Thyatira Acts 16:15 house chruch leader

Nympha of Laodicea Colossians 4:15 house chruch leader

Four Daughers Philip Acts 21:8-9 Prophetesses, teachers, historians


With that many women leading the early church, our church figures its safe to thank Paul for his advise, and then follow the early church - we joyfully ordain women.

 

[Nickolai]

However the Church who can acctually trace it's roots and former bishops to the early Church doesn't. What makes your interpretation of Pauls words better than the True Early Church's?

 

[Rev. Smith]

However the Church who can acctually trace it's roots and former bishops to the early Church doesn't. What makes your interpretation of Pauls words better than the True Early Church's?

I simply point out that Jesus blessed women, appearing first to Mary of Magdala at his ressurection - and the earliest churches seemed to have no problem with women as leaders. So must we assume that everyone but Paul had it wrong? Or should we rather assume that Paul was writing to address a specific problem, or writing in his own voice, as he did on celebacy? Both testaments are filled with women as heros of the faith, leaders and teachers - their voice is not a voice I would like to lose.

I do not propose that your church change its views, our Bishops (who also trace their lines back to the earliest days) see women as proper ministers for the Church.

 

[Erik3]

Phoebe Rom 16:1 minister/President chruch Cenchrea

Priscilla Rom 16:3 Teacher/chruch leader

Junia Rom 16:7 Apostle

Four Daughers Philip Acts 21:8-9 Prophetesses, teachers, historians

While I don't necessarily oppose women being ordained, I think you've misrepresented these verses. I could be wrong. What translation are you using?

ESV:
Rom 16:1: I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church at Cenchreae

Rom 16:3: Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus

Rom 16:7: Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me

Acts 21:8-9: On the next day we departed and came to Caesarea, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. 9He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied
(no mention of them being teachers or historians?)