I have no idea of what you were trying to say here. None. You can try again if you want or we can just agree to disagree, even though I don't even know what I'm disagreeing with since I can't understand what you're trying to say. It's probably best to just let this one go.In Luke 20. This is where the discussion began, remember? You used the example of Jesus saying that those who partake in the resurrection do not marry. This was in response to the Sadducees asking "whose wife will she be" if all seven brothers had married her before the resurrection.
You said we are not in the next age yet because we still marry. I'm saying, your example does not prove your point because Jesus is not saying that those in the next age do not marry. Rather he's saying those who are resurrected in the next age do not marry again after being resurrected.
Luke 20
Then some of the Sadducees, who deny that there is a resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 28 saying: “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, having a wife, and he dies without children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. And the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her as wife, and he died childless. 31 Then the third took her, and in like manner the seven also; and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife.”
34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
I'm sorry, where exactly in your post did you prove that angels have spiritual bodies? I must have missed that. When Paul talked about flesh and blood not entering the kingdom of heaven, he was referring to mortal human beings there, not angels. So, you proved nothing regarding angels by referencing 1 Corinthians 15.Yes, spiritual bodies are still bodies. Absolutely. Paul calls them "heavenly bodies" in 1 Corinthians 15 but that's clearly the same thing. There are bodies which can only live on earth (flesh and blood), and then there are bodies that are able to enter into heaven, heavenly bodies. When our flesh and blood bodies die, we are given spiritual bodies, so that we can enter into heaven.
Since Paul said flesh and blood can not enter into the kingdom of heaven, obviously angels must have spiritual bodies. Assuming there are only two kinds of bodies of course.
No. It will be given to the dead in Christ and the living in Christ when Jesus comes again...on the last day.
God has fixed a day in the future when the door to salvation will be shut...this is the last day.
1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Jn 6
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
Jn 12
47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Act 17
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
Yeah, I've gathered that from what you've said. But, scripture says that all the dead in Christ will be resurrected when Christ returns at the last trumpet. Your view contradicts that. I think we've already covered this enough, so it's time to agree to disagree.I disagree. I think millions (billions?) have been resurrected already.
That's the only logical conclusion if you want to contradict the scriptures which say that the resurrection of the dead will occur when Christ returns at the last trumpet.There's no direct scripture that says "millions were resurrected", granted, but there is direct scripture that says "the resurrection is coming soon" (and that was 2000 years ago) and there's also direct scripture that says "you will never taste death". If you put those two facts together, then the only logical conclusion is that the resurrection has already happened.
What now? That isn't how I picture the resurrection. I'm sure you've read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17? Whether people can be seen coming out of their graves or not, we all (the dead in Christ and those who are alive at the time) will be changed in an instant (1 Cor 15:50-54) and caught up to meet Christ in the air. Whether people on earth will see us up there "in the air", I don't know. But, you have clearly misunderstood my belief about what will happen. Hopefully, you understand it better now.Of course, I can understand that you would find this notion incredulous if you imagine the resurrection to be people stepping out of their graves the way Jesus did, because then surely there would be a record of this as people would have noticed, but I believe the resurrection takes place in a different dimension, so there are no earthly witnesses.
Read what he said again. I'll quote it here:The fact you mentioned a fixed day when salvation shall be shut, this was being discussed in another thread just today. This discussion had to do with the little season after the thousand years. Assuming that is meaning in this age, do you think salvation shall be shut during the little season, or do you think it remains open during the little season?
The reason why this might matter, if the first resurrection is tied to salvation, the text in Revelation 20 indicates that everyone that has part in the first resurrection, they shall reign with Christ a thousand years. If someone is saved during the little season, they obviously can't at that time also reign with Christ a thousand years if the thousand years are already in the past when they are initially saved.
I happen to know what Jeff believes (same as me), but I don't think you need to know that in order to discern what he was saying. First, he said that Jesus comes again on the last day. Then he said that God fixed a day in the future when the door to salvation will be shut, which will be on the last day. That means he was saying that the day God has fixed in the future when the door to salvation will be shut is the last day when Christ returns.jeffweedaman said:No. It will be given to the dead in Christ and the living in Christ when Jesus comes again...on the last day.
God has fixed a day in the future when the door to salvation will be shut...this is the last day.
It looks like you are the one that hasn't put any thought into it since you had to ask if the soul and spirit are two different things. Of course they are.You say your "spirit" goes to be with the Lord, but you say your "soul" goes also. These are two different things? Clearly you haven't put a lot of thought into what soul and spirit are. I think this is where you need to begin. Clarify what these things are, before you can even begin to understand the resurrection.
Is that a serious question? Have you not been reading my posts? If you don't know the answer already from my other posts, then I can only conclude that you are either not reading my posts carefully, or have already forgotten what I've said before.Why do you think Christ's second coming is still in our future?
You're not going to use spiritual discernment anymore and instead are just going to interpret things in a wooden literal fashion? It certainly makes no sense to think He was saying that we would never die in any way, shape or form since believers clearly do die physically/bodily. So, interpreting it literally the way you want to do makes no sense.See, what you're doing right here, I've done this myself many times before. I think we're all guilty of it. We come across a quote that doesn't really seem to make sense, so we make it make sense. We say, "well, what he meant was...".
I'm not doing that anymore.
Read what he said again. I'll quote it here:
I happen to know what Jeff believes (same as me), but I don't think you need to know that in order to discern what he was saying. First, he said that Jesus comes again on the last day. Then he said that God fixed a day in the future when the door to salvation will be shut, which will be on the last day. That means he was saying that the day God has fixed in the future when the door to salvation will be shut is the last day when Christ returns.
So, the answer to your question of whether he thinks salvation shall be shut during the little season is no because he clearly said that he believes it will be shut on the last day, which he clearly indicated is the day Jesus comes again.
I don't normally try to speak for other people, but I couldn't help it in this case.
I addressed this already in another post where you brought this up. The problem with what you're saying is that you seem to think that Christ is no longer reigning when the thousand years are over. Is that what you believe? Because what you're saying could only be true if that was the case. If it isn't (it's not - Isaiah 9:7) then you need to rethink what you're saying here.Since I apparently overlooked that fact, in regards to the last day, it simply means his interpretation is contradicting what the first resurrection is involving. Anyone saved after the thousand years couldn't possibly also have part in the first resurrection, since everyone having part in the first resurrection, they all, without exception, reign with Christ a thousand years. How some of you can reason some of these things and seeing it still making sense, is probably something I'll never understand in this lifetime. Either the first resurrection is tied to salvation or it isn't. Can't have it both ways.
I'm asking because I want to establish a base line from which we can debate. Obviously I know that you believe Christ's coming is still future. I'm asking you to explain on what you base that belief, so that we can go from there.Is that a serious question? Have you not been reading my posts? If you don't know the answer already from my other posts, then I can only conclude that you are either not reading my posts carefully, or have already forgotten what I've said before.
Also, do you believe in a future coming of Christ? If so, do you consider that to be His third coming?
No, no. You're not understanding. I wasn't "asking" if a soul and spirit are the same thing. I know they're not. I was asking you to explain your statement where you said "my soul and spirit go to be with the Lord in heaven". You're talking about two different things here, so please explain to me how you think a soul and spirit are different, and how do these two different things both go to be the Lord?It looks like you are the one that hasn't put any thought into it since you had to ask if the soul and spirit are two different things. Of course they are.
1 Thess 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
My view does not contradict this at all. How can you still think my view contradicts scripture when I've explained it to you so many times already?Yeah, I've gathered that from what you've said. But, scripture says that all the dead in Christ will be resurrected when Christ returns at the last trumpet. Your view contradicts that. I think we've already covered this enough, so it's time to agree to disagree.
Why are you asking me to prove that angels have spiritual bodies? I'm assuming they do because they are spirits. Don't you believe that? But what does any of this have to do with our discussion?I'm sorry, where exactly in your post did you prove that angels have spiritual bodies? I must have missed that. When Paul talked about flesh and blood not entering the kingdom of heaven, he was referring to mortal human beings there, not angels. So, you proved nothing regarding angels by referencing 1 Corinthians 15.
I've already explained that in other posts. That's why I said you either aren't reading my posts carefully or you've already forgotten what I've said. I've said to you several times now that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time at Christ's coming at the last trumpet. So, I obviously believe that His coming is yet future because I believe that the last trumpet has not yet sounded and not all of the dead in Christ have been resurrected yet. How would you not already know this unless you either didn't pay close attention to what I've said before or forgot what I said before (and not long ago) already?I'm asking because I want to establish a base line from which we can debate. Obviously I know that you believe Christ's coming is still future. I'm asking you to explain on what you base that belief, so that we can go from there.
Why do you not believe that passages like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 are referring to His future return?And yes, I also believe Christ will return in our future because the angels said that he would return the same way they saw him leave, so that hasn't happened yet.
o.k. then, so we agree that the resurrection, whether it's past or future, would be invisible to those who are still in their physical bodies. So how then can you claim with absolute certainty that it hasn't happened yet?What now? That isn't how I picture the resurrection. I'm sure you've read 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17? Whether people can be seen coming out of their graves or not, we all (the dead in Christ and those who are alive at the time) will be changed in an instant (1 Cor 15:50-54) and caught up to meet Christ in the air. Whether people on earth will see us up there "in the air", I don't know. But, you have clearly misunderstood my belief about what will happen. Hopefully, you understand it better now.
I'm trying to find the answer to my question in here and as far as I can gather your belief is based on the following two things:I've already explained that in other posts. That's why I said you either aren't reading my posts carefully or you've already forgotten what I've said. I've said to you several times now that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time at Christ's coming at the last trumpet. So, I obviously believe that His coming is yet future because I believe that the last trumpet has not yet sounded and not all of the dead in Christ have been resurrected yet. How would you not already know this unless you either didn't pay close attention to what I've said before or forgot what I said before (and not long ago) already?
The short answer is because Jesus very clearly stated in the first century that he would return before that generation passed away. He also stated in the book of Revelation that his return (among other events) would "soon take place".Why do you not believe that passages like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 are referring to His future return?
Because I've thought your view contradicts scripture all along. No matter how many times you explain it, I will continue to believe it contradicts scripture.My view does not contradict this at all. How can you still think my view contradicts scripture when I've explained it to you so many times already?
No, scripture does not indicate that the trumpet would be blown before the end of the age when Christ returns, which has not yet happened.Let me repeat: I believe the trumpet has already blown and at that time everybody who was in the grave was resurrected. That is literally what scripture says and that is literally what I believe.
You are contradicting scripture because Paul indicates that ALL of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-17). That can't possibly have happened in 70 AD because there have been plenty in Christ who have died since then and it wouldn't be possible for them to be resurrected at Christ's coming at the last trumpet if it already sounded.The only difference between us is that you think it's future, and I think it's past, but please don't tell me that I'm contradicting scripture because I'm not.
Yet, you do believe in His future return, so how do you determine that those passages I referenced are speaking of a past coming of Christ instead of the future coming of Christ?The short answer is because Jesus very clearly stated in the first century that he would return before that generation passed away. He also stated in the book of Revelation that his return (among other events) would "soon take place".
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?