The Harvest At The End Of The Age

[Freedm]

Dear SongOnTheWind,
I used to teach End-time prophecy in my last church. That all ended in October, 2005 when the Lord suddenly came to me as a thief in the night and healed my spiritual blindness. That was when I received the Latter Rain of the Spirit. I knew nothing about it from scripture until after it occurred to me. It was totally unexpected.

...

If you have any questions, please ask. One never knows when Christ might "suddenly" appear.

Joe

So, I just read all of that and surprisingly I find this all very interesting. I'm with you on some of this stuff, but some of the other stuff doesn't really make sense to me. The beasts in Daniel are four kingdoms, yet you're proposing that we are the fourth beast?

 

[Freedm]

Hi Freedm,

I can understand why you think that, and I agree that in the Body there is no Jew nor gentile etc. However God has NOT cast off Israel and also has purposes for the nations.

Note WE are NOT the center of God`s word, it is for us to read and learn but it is NOT all about us. The center is Christ, His character and His purposes.

Of course it's all about Christ, but when it comes to Jews and Gentiles Christ has made us one in him. Don't you know that Christ is Israel and Israel is Christ? And if Christ is in us then Israel is in us. Israel is literally the kingdom of God and we were all grafted into the same tree which is Israel. God has not cast off Israel because WE ARE ISRAEL.

 

[Marilyn C]

Of course it's all about Christ, but when it comes to Jews and Gentiles Christ has made us one in him. Don't you know that Christ is Israel and Israel is Christ? And if Christ is in us then Israel is in us. Israel is literally the kingdom of God and we were all grafted into the same tree which is Israel. God has not cast off Israel because WE ARE ISRAEL.

We are grated in to the ROOT, which is HOLY and NOURISHES us. Israel can NEVER do that. (Rom. 11: 16 & 17)

 

[FaithWillDo]

So, I just read all of that and surprisingly I find this all very interesting. I'm with you on some of this stuff, but some of the other stuff doesn't really make sense to me. The beasts in Daniel are four kingdoms, yet you're proposing that we are the fourth beast?

Dear Freedm,

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking.

Mankind is represented by all four beasts throughout the ages. The fourth beast came on the earth near the start of this present age and has grown in power. The "little horn" represents the "Man of Sin" who Paul wrote about in 2Thess chapter 2. I described who the "Man of Sin" is in my last post. He is not an individual person but represents all "fallen away" Christians who have become "worse than before" (Mat 12:43-45) under Satan's influence.

The Seven Headed beast in Revelation 13 represents "completed" mankind has we have grown to become throughout history. The four beasts in Daniel are contained within this Seven Headed beast, though more details of the individual beasts are given by Daniel.

When scripture says:
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Mankind's number is "six". The Seven Headed beast, in its completed form, the number becomes "666"(6 repeated 3 times). In Christ's spiritual language, the number "three" represents a complete spiritual process and that is why the number 6 for man changes to 666 as it relates to the Seven Headed beast. The Seven Headed beast represents the spiritually completed form of mankind which took until this present age to complete.

Let me ask you this: Does it not seem strange to you that large portions of scripture, which we call End-time prophecy, haven't applied to anyone in the past 2000 years?

As I previously pointed out, scripture says that the time is "at hand" and that the book of Revelation is not sealed. But yet, most End-time teachers say the events are just now unfolding. And they have been saying that for centuries but yet the end never comes. During my days of studying prophecy, before I was given "eyes that can see", I believed much like everyone else. I understood the teachings to be fulfilled "outwardly". But that is incorrect. The New Covenant is spiritual and is fulfilled "within" mankind. That is the only way we can be saved.

When mankind tried to be saved "outwardly" by their own "works" under the Old Covenant, we failed. Our failure leads us to Christ, who will do ALL the work of changing us "inwardly". This "change" is called conversion.

God has a detailed plan for our conversion. It has many steps to it. It involves traveling the wide path that leads to the destruction of our original spiritual condition. We start traveling the wide path after we receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. This is the time when we are "called out". We complete the wide path when Christ comes to us a second time with the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain destroys the Man of Sin whom we have become under Satan's influence but it also gives us a new birth. It is that new spiritual birth when we are considered "born again" as a babe in Christ. The old vessel is destroyed and the new vessel is created. The babe in Christ then starts traveling the narrow path and as he travels it, Christ matures him into a fully mature son of God who never sins.

End-time prophecy presents the details of the two paths that we must travel. The events happen "within" us because that is where Christ is doing His work to save us.

Joe

 

[jeffweedaman]

It has happened. It clearly has not happened the way you imagine it, but you're imagining it wrong.

jeffweedaman said: ↑
If that was the case then we righteous ones should have inherited Glorification in the Kingdom that was prepared from the foundation of the world....Clearly has not happened yet.]


It has not happened yet. You imagine it wrong.
If I /we have already inherited the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world, then why is my body dying and my hair going grey , and my eyes and ears are losing there ability.?
Get real

 

[SongOnTheWind]

Yes I am so glad you see the Holy Spirit as important in being led in His word. Then we must remember that we are not perfect in hearing the Holy Spirit, and that what is written in God`s word is above what we think we may have heard from the Holy Spirit. It could be our own imaginings, or an error in our theology, or some other `spirit` trying to deceive us. Thus God`s word is paramount.

Yes, none of us are perfect, and only the Holy Spirit can lead us into all truth. Not another person's arrogance or self-confidence. Not even our own

I'm glad you also agree on this

 

[SongOnTheWind]

Of course it's all about Christ, but when it comes to Jews and Gentiles Christ has made us one in him. Don't you know that Christ is Israel and Israel is Christ? And if Christ is in us then Israel is in us. Israel is literally the kingdom of God and we were all grafted into the same tree which is Israel. God has not cast off Israel because WE ARE ISRAEL.

Agreed!!!

John 17:20-21:
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

This includes Messianic believers too. We are one in Him, the Bride, the Body, without denomination or division. Why some continue to seek division is a real question for me.

 

[Freedm]

We are grated in to the ROOT, which is HOLY and NOURISHES us. Israel can NEVER do that. (Rom. 11: 16 & 17)

Look at the following scriptures that make it clear, Jesus is Israel.

Exodus 4:22
Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord, Israel is my firstborn son..

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

Matthew 2:15
where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Those three verses together make the connection between Israel and Jesus.

 

[Freedm]

jeffweedaman said: ↑
If that was the case then we righteous ones should have inherited Glorification in the Kingdom that was prepared from the foundation of the world....Clearly has not happened yet.]


It has not happened yet. You imagine it wrong.
If I /we have already inherited the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world, then why is my body dying and my hair going grey , and my eyes and ears are losing there ability.?
Get real

Don't you believe that you'll live in an incorruptible body the moment you pass from this life? You may not be in that body now, but it's already been granted to you.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When you say "bodily resurrection", what do you mean exactly? Do you not believe that after the resurrection we will have spiritual bodies?

Yes, of course. Spiritual bodies are still bodies, right?

Like the angels? Or do you believe there's a difference between a spirit and a spiritual body?

I think there probably is a difference, but I don't know if it can be proven from scripture. Where is your evidence to show that angels/spirits have spiritual bodies?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Let me try again. Jesus wasn't talking simply about those of us living in this age, but he was talking specifically about those who've been resurrected in this age. Remember, the Sadducees were asking about those who are resurrected, so Jesus' answer was about those who are resurrected.

I truly have no idea of what you're talking about. When did the Sadducees say anything about people "who are resurrected"? Where are you getting the idea that anyone except Christ has been resurrected with a spiritual, immortal, glorified body yet?

So, yes although you are living in this age you marry and die, but those who've been resurrected in this age do not marry or die. This is what Jesus was talking about, and therefore, your example does not contradict my position.

No one except Christ has been resurrected in this age. Where are you even getting that from? It will happen at His second coming at the last trumpet in the future.

Don't you believe that you'll live in an incorruptible body the moment you pass from this life? You may not be in that body now, but it's already been granted to you.

Paul said that we will all (the dead in Christ plus those who are alive at the time) be changed and have incorruptible bodies at Christ's second coming at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:22-23,50-54). Why is that so hard for you to understand? It's never taught anywhere that we will have incorruptible bodies immediately after we die.

What I'm saying is you seem to be under the impression that this grand resurrection will be visible to all of us alive on earth and would be visible on CNN. I'm saying the resurrection happens in the spiritual realm which we do not see. So the simple fact that you haven't witnessed it, nor read about it in the history books, does not mean it didn't happen. It just means it wasn't witnessed.

It has nothing to do with everyone seeing it or anything like that. It has to do with the fact that it will happen at Christ's future second coming at the last trumpet. All of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time! Scripture is very clear about that. But, you think it happens for each person upon each person's death. Scripture does not teach that. That's why John said he saw souls in heaven instead of people with their incorruptible bodies.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Granted, there's no clear scripture that says "everyone will be immediately resurrected upon death", but as I pointed out before, I believe that's exactly what Jesus was telling us in all those other examples.

There is clear scripture saying that all the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time. You seem to just completely disregard those scriptures.

He didn't use the word "resurrection" but he did say we would not taste death. The only way that makes sense, is if we live in our new heavenly bodies as soon as these earthly bodies die. There can be no time in between, otherwise we would taste death and Jesus said we wouldn't. It's simple logic really.

That's the only way it makes sense to you, but what makes sense to you contradicts scripture. We all physically die, so He was not saying we won't taste death in any sense. He's talking about the fact that believers won't experience the second death like unbelievers will (Rev 20:14-15).

All your examples show all the dead believers being resurrected at the same time, and yes that is exactly what happened in 70 AD.

That is complete nonsense. No resurrection of the dead took place in 70 AD. That claim is laughable, at best.

I don't dispute any of that. Maybe you're still not understanding what I'm saying; imagine this scenario:

1. The day before the resurrection in 70 AD, there are millions of dead people sleeping in the dust.
2. On the day of the resurrection, all those dead people are resurrected. So there are no more dead people.
3. Today, there are still no dead people because as soon as you "die", you live.

Let me ask you this; what do you think happens to you the moment that you die?

My body is dead at that point and my soul and spirit go to be with the Lord in heaven. As Paul said in 2 Cor 5:6-8, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Also, John said he saw the souls of dead believers in heaven in Rev 6 and 20. Why would he saw he saw the souls of dead believers if they had bodies?

 

[Freedm]

I truly have no idea of what you're talking about. When did the Sadducees say anything about people "who are resurrected"? Where are you getting the idea that anyone except Christ has been resurrected with a spiritual, immortal, glorified body yet?

In Luke 20. This is where the discussion began, remember? You used the example of Jesus saying that those who partake in the resurrection do not marry. This was in response to the Sadducees asking "whose wife will she be" if all seven brothers had married her before the resurrection.

You said we are not in the next age yet because we still marry. I'm saying, your example does not prove your point because Jesus is not saying that those in the next age do not marry. Rather he's saying those who are resurrected in the next age do not marry again after being resurrected.

Luke 20
Then some of the Sadducees, who deny that there is a resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 28 saying: “Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man’s brother dies, having a wife, and he dies without children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. And the first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second took her as wife, and he died childless. 31 Then the third took her, and in like manner the seven also; and they left no children, and died. 32 Last of all the woman died also. 33 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife.”

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

 

[Freedm]

No one except Christ has been resurrected in this age. Where are you even getting that from? It will happen at His second coming at the last trumpet in the future.

I disagree. I think millions (billions?) have been resurrected already.

There's no direct scripture that says "millions were resurrected", granted, but there is direct scripture that says "the resurrection is coming soon" (and that was 2000 years ago) and there's also direct scripture that says "you will never taste death". If you put those two facts together, then the only logical conclusion is that the resurrection has already happened.

Of course, I can understand that you would find this notion incredulous if you imagine the resurrection to be people stepping out of their graves the way Jesus did, because then surely there would be a record of this as people would have noticed, but I believe the resurrection takes place in a different dimension, so there are no earthly witnesses.

 

[Freedm]

Paul said that we will all (the dead in Christ plus those who are alive at the time) be changed and have incorruptible bodies at Christ's second coming at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:22-23,50-54). Why is that so hard for you to understand?

It's not hard for me to understand at all.

It's never taught anywhere that we will have incorruptible bodies immediately after we die.

Or is it? Do you not believe that you will live as a spirit immediately after you die? Is a spiritual body not an incorruptible body?

 

[Freedm]

It has nothing to do with everyone seeing it or anything like that. It has to do with the fact that it will happen at Christ's future second coming at the last trumpet. All of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time! Scripture is very clear about that. But, you think it happens for each person upon each person's death. Scripture does not teach that. That's why John said he saw souls in heaven instead of people with their incorruptible bodies.

Why do you think Christ's second coming is still in our future?

 

[Freedm]

We all physically die, so He was not saying we won't taste death in any sense. He's talking about the fact that believers won't experience the second death like unbelievers will (Rev 20:14-15).

See, what you're doing right here, I've done this myself many times before. I think we're all guilty of it. We come across a quote that doesn't really seem to make sense, so we make it make sense. We say, "well, what he meant was...".

I'm not doing that anymore.

 

[Freedm]

My body is dead at that point and my soul and spirit go to be with the Lord in heaven. As Paul said in 2 Cor 5:6-8, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Also, John said he saw the souls of dead believers in heaven in Rev 6 and 20. Why would he saw he saw the souls of dead believers if they had bodies?

You say your "spirit" goes to be with the Lord, but you say your "soul" goes also. These are two different things? Clearly you haven't put a lot of thought into what soul and spirit are. I think this is where you need to begin. Clarify what these things are, before you can even begin to understand the resurrection.

 

[Freedm]

Yes, of course. Spiritual bodies are still bodies, right?

I think there probably is a difference, but I don't know if it can be proven from scripture. Where is your evidence to show that angels/spirits have spiritual bodies?

Yes, spiritual bodies are still bodies. Absolutely. Paul calls them "heavenly bodies" in 1 Corinthians 15 but that's clearly the same thing. There are bodies which can only live on earth (flesh and blood), and then there are bodies that are able to enter into heaven, heavenly bodies. When our flesh and blood bodies die, we are given spiritual bodies, so that we can enter into heaven.

Since Paul said flesh and blood can not enter into the kingdom of heaven, obviously angels must have spiritual bodies. Assuming there are only two kinds of bodies of course.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Don't you believe that you'll live in an incorruptible body the moment you pass from this life?

No. It will be given to the dead in Christ and the living in Christ when Jesus comes again...on the last day.
God has fixed a day in the future when the door to salvation will be shut...this is the last day.

1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Jn 6
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Jn 12
47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.



Act 17
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”