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the ground zero mosque

S

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I suspect that a mosque at ground zero would be used by Muslims world-wide to commemorate a heinous event that they view as having been a great victory of Islam over Christianity.

Since it would become a symbol of hatred and violence overcoming the forces of good in the world, should we not do everything we legally can to ensure that this structure is not built?

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So what should be the limits on issues to do with freedom of speech and the expression of religious freedom end? Every democracy has restrictions on what can be done and said in this regard.

The central issue in New York is the construction of a mosque close to Ground 0. If this was a neutral place of worship, and its construction met the zoning bylaws, I think most people wouldn't be all that concerned.

But what if it was named the Mohammed Atta Memorial Mosque? What if was dedicated to honouring the "martyrdom" of the 9/11 hijackers? What if it became the new "Mecca" for those dedicated to the violent overthrow of Christianity and "decadent" western societies?

I suspect that it is the possibility that this mosque could become more than just a peaceful place of worship that has people so concerned.

Ultimately, in a democracy, the will of the people must prevail. So why not have a referendum- a nation-wide vote on whether to allow the construction of the mosque to go ahead or not.

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Harry3142

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Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written, "It is mine to avenge, I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary:

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:17-21,NIV)

As active members of the State we who are Christians answer to the State, even as all others must (Romans 13:1-5). But as individuals our own actions are to be governed by our teaching, found in Holy Writ. The State may use the means at its diposal in order to eliminate a threat posed to its people; that is not only its right, but also its responsibility. But those individuals who are Christians, but who are not active participants in the military, law enforcement, judicial system, or political leadership are not to usurp the responsibilities and powers which rightfully belong to these groups of people, and then use what they have usurped for vendetta.

And how does this translate into the 'ground-zero mosque'? It means that as Christians not only are we not to interfere with its planning and construction, but we are also to offer welcome and aid to those who are endeavoring to open it. It is our actions as Christians, rather than our words, that legitimize the teachings of Christ as truly spiritual and of benefit to any and all societies where Christianity is practised. It is by following the Christians' code of conduct (Galatians 5:16-26) that we give credence to its teaching.
 
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But in a democracy, all people, including Christians, have a right- even a duty- to vote; to be active participants in that democracy.

Also, the political leadership in a democracy is elected by the people- they therefore represent us and need to listen to our opinions so that, ideally, the will of the people prevails.

So given that the U.S. is a democracy, the people ultimately have a right to decide whether or not they wish to allow this mosque to be built- I don't believe there is anything un-Christian about this.

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razeontherock

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I suspect that a mosque at ground zero would be used by Muslims world-wide to commemorate a heinous event that they view as having been a great victory of Islam over Christianity.

Since it would become a symbol of hatred and violence overcoming the forces of good in the world, should we not do everything we legally can to ensure that this structure is not built?

The problem with your first statement is it conflates US UN involvement w/ Christianity.

To your second statement, what can we legally do?
 
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Harry3142

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In the USA we have a written constitution. That constitution contains amendments. Included in those amendments as of primary importance are the first 10, called collectively The Bill of Rights. Amendment #1 specifically states that there will be an unhindered right to worship as we choose. So long as this amendment is in place, muslims have the right to worship without fear of retaliation or interference.

What we here in the USA must note is that the first amendment protects more than just religious observance. The same amendment protects freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and freedom of the press. The website we're on now is protected by the first amendment. We can state our beliefs without fear of reprisal because of the first amendment. We can even debate each other without having to worry that someone on this website has a powerful friend who can, and will, arrest us for nothing more than having a different viewpoint.

This amendment, as well as the other nine amendments included in the original Bill of Rights, was written by men who had personally witnessed what happens to a society that does not have these rights 'set in stone'. They had known men who considered it their duty to deprive others of these rights. They had stood in the presence of men who considered themselves as the elite caste and all others as their servants. They had seen these same men gradually become ever more tyrannical. These amendments were the product of having seen that tyranny go berserk. And then that tyranny had come for the colonials.

There are those in the USA today who are trying to say that the U. S. Constitution is antiquated, and needs to be replaced by a more modern plan of government. They say that the constitution was written by landed gentry in the 18th century who had no concept of how far this country would go in its industrialization and scientific discoveries. It is to be seen as the product of an age-gone-by, and relegated to a niche in a museum alongside other documents that are no longer of any importance except as historical curiosities. They would replace it with a document that is more in tune with modern-day scientific knowledge, industrialization, and power structure. They would give the rank-and-file americans the 'order' and 'security' that they need.

Now, is anyone so naive that they honestly trust any present-day group of people, especially if those people have political aspirations, to write a document that does not transfer all power to that specific group? The original authors of our constitution knew that all too well. They had just fought a war as a direct result of a certain group entertaining the notion that all must obey them in abject subservience. And with that war still fresh in their minds, they wrote a constitution which would guarantee that there would never be another group of men with that much power again. No group could ever say that because another group had a different way of living than their own, they had the right to crush that group.

Also, we need to take a long,hard look at what is really being targetted by some who would have us alter, or even repeal, certain parts of the constitution, and especially those who would 'scrap' it altogether. The ultimate outcome of this, including the formation of a new governmental foundation, would of course be decided by the political leadership in the house of representatives, The senate, and the executive branch. And what would they want to have absolute control over?

No, it's not firearms. Nor is it religion or the right of an accused person not to incriminate himself. These may be used as diversionary targets in order to rally popular opinion and support for their wanting to replace the constitution. But they are not the target that many politicians want to destroy. The target they are really going after is Freedom of the Press.

And how could they accomplish this? It's actually very easy. Attorneys appear in federal court to argue against a certain part of the constitution. It could be gun rights, or the right of criminals not to reveal essentail information conerning their activities, or certain groups who may be controversial being permitted to assemble. But the common thread will be that the part of the constitution under attack will be in that part of the constitution written by the founding fathers personally.

But the argument as presented in court will not be against that part of the constitution that they claim to disagree with. It will target the men who wrote that part, who would just happen to be the founding fathers who wrote freedom of the press as part of the first amendment. After they have finished arguing that the founding fathers were out-of-touch with today's reality; that they were landed gentry living on estates, with some even owning slaves; that they could not have foreseen the massive strides we have made in science, technology, and industrialization in the 200 years following their time; that they originally adopted a policy of isolationism, a policy which in and of itself is now null and void due to modern travel; after arguing their case in this way, then they will call for a decision from the court.

But that decision will not be on the particular part of the constitution which they claim to be arguing against; that is merely a 'plug-in', which can be taken out and replaced by any other part of the constitution that was written by the founding fathers. It will be a decision as to whether any and all works written by those founding fathers should be seen as still viable, or instead should be seen as the work of men declared incompetent to decide the structure of our society in the modern world. If the court rules in favor of the argument as it has been presented to them, they have automatically 'pulled the plug' on freedom of the press without ever once mentioning that they were even after it.

When we start trying to get around the U. S. Constitution in order to satisfy grievances that we have, we run the very real risk of opening a 'Pandora's Box' which is better left closed. There are those who would like nothing better than to have an excuse to attempt to undermine our constitution. On 9-11 there were muslims running for safety alongside those of other religions in New York. They also had to flee as the Towers fell. They were running right beside christians and jews as they hurried to get to safety. They had to endure the suffering that was common on that day. If they now want to have a center nearby, that is their right. I wouldn't be surprised if many of them go there to thank God that he permitted them to survive the horror of 9-11.
 
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aiki

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And how does this translate into the 'ground-zero mosque'? It means that as Christians not only are we not to interfere with its planning and construction, but we are also to offer welcome and aid to those who are endeavoring to open it.
I couldn't disagree more! Inasmuch as Islam promotes falsehood and violence, it is the duty of Christians to whom God has given His holy truth to object to and resist its spread. Remember the quotation about evil and good men doing nothing? Embracing those who would disseminate a religious view that damns people to hell and which cultivates terrorism and violence is to become complicit in the evil Islam purveys.

It is our actions as Christians, rather than our words, that legitimize the teachings of Christ as truly spiritual and of benefit to any and all societies where Christianity is practised. It is by following the Christians' code of conduct (Galatians 5:16-26) that we give credence to its teaching.
We are to love - but in truth (1 Jn. 3:18). This means we do nothing in our attempts to demonstrate love to others that undermines God's truth. Any "love" that divorces itself from a strict adherence to God's truth is not really godly love at all.

We are to "come out from among them and be separate" (2 Cor. 6:17) and we are to "...have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Eph. 5:11) King David wrote, "...I kept silence; you thought that I was altogether such an one as yourself: but I will reprove you..." (Ps. 50:21) Clearly, Christians are not to align themselves in any way with a false religion such as Islam, or make any accommodation for it.

It is precisely the "throw wide your arms and love on Muslims" attitude that they are depending on in attempting their cultural jihad in North America.

Selah.
 
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i came here because i enjoy hearing other viewpoints, same reason i am a member of some political forums even though im mostly libertarian and dont agree with many people.

also there are things that i am for legally that i am against personally (abortion is a good example for me personally).

i was all for the quaran burning. burning symbols is an age old way of voicing disagreement, and i dont think crazy radicals will be more or less determined to kill america and what it stands for. i am also for bible burning or burning Darwin's Origin of Species.

last thing (at least for now), we do not live in a democracy. we live in a republic. in a republic, the rights of the people can not be hindered by the will of the people. if popular opinion ruled the land then we wouldnt have integrated schools when we did, or recently end the ban on federal gay marriage.
 
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