"The Greatest Conceivable Being"

[Archaeopteryx]

But it's not about physics, it's about cause and effect, which are philosophical concepts, derived from logic and reason.
Like math perhaps.

Of course it's about physics. There's a whole field dedicated to it - cosmology. I'd be more inclined to look to cosmology for answers regarding the origin of the universe than theology.

 

[Hieronymus]

Of course it's about physics.

No, it's about the cause of physics.
You do see things can not cause themselves, don't you?

Maybe we can boil it down to:
Why is there anything at all?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, it's about the cause of physics.
You do see things can not cause themselves, don't you?

Maybe we can boil it down to:
Why is there anything at all?

The cause of physics? I don't even see that as an intelligible question as such. You might need to reword it.

 

[Hieronymus]

The cause of physics? I don't even see that as an intelligible question as such. You might need to reword it.

Well, since physics is a part of the universe, and the universe is submitted to (laws of) physics....etcetera...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Well, since physics is a part of the universe, and the universe is submitted to (laws of) physics....etcetera...

Perhaps now you are beginning to see the extent of the mystery.

 

[Hieronymus]

Perhaps now you are beginning to see the extent of the mystery.

Sure it's a mystery.
But that doesn't mean the universe has no cause, or that anything has no cause.
(o,wait, iḿcontradicting myself, because the original cause can not be caused (by definition)....)
Why is there anything in stead of nothing (not anything)?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Sure it's a mystery.
But that doesn't mean the universe has no cause, or that anything has no cause.
Why is there anything in stead of nothing (not anything)?

We don't know.

 

[Hieronymus]

We don't know.

Allright, but things exist, at least our perception of our common reality exists.
Things can not cause themselves, or they would have existed without existing.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Allright, but things exist, at least our perception of our common reality exists.
Things can not cause themselves, or they would have existed without existing.

What does that have to do with our ignorance on the question of the universe's origins?

 

[The Cadet]

So your bicycle has always existed before it existed?

The atoms that make up my bicycle existed long before my bicycle was assembled. We never observe matter being created.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The origins of the universe are not physical.

Says who?

At T=0 physics come into play,

Including causality, being a phenomena of physics and all...

so apparently the cause of it is not physical.

Chicken and egg problem, right there.

You could say "Occams razor" and most will understand.

I don't think it means what you think it means...
Occams razor is about going for the simplest explanation.

Inventing and unevidenced supreme and extremely complex being to fill a gap in our knowledge is the very opposite of the "simplest explanation".

 

[DogmaHunter]

Maybe we can boil it down to:
Why is there anything at all?

Only if "nothing" existing was ever even an option.

 

[Hieronymus]

Says who?

Logic and reason do.
Things can not cause themselves.

Occams razor is about going for the simplest explanation.

Not necessarily the simplest, but the most obvious.

 

[Hieronymus]

The atoms that make up my bicycle existed long before my bicycle was assembled. We never observe matter being created.

Do you make an effort to not understand things?
Great job in that case.

 

[The Cadet]

Do you make an effort to not understand things?
Great job in that case.

It's a valid complaint. We "create" things from other things all the time. We never create things out of nothing.

 

[Hieronymus]

...and because we can't it is impossible?
Then how did everything get here?
And what for?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Logic and reason do.
Things can not cause themselves.

Unless they are gods?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

...and because we can't it is impossible?
Then how did everything get here?
And what for?

Again, we don't know.

 

[The Cadet]

...and because we can't it is impossible?

I didn't say that. I merely pointed out that we have never observed anything being created. We don't know if it's possible.

Then how did everything get here?

I don't know. Do you? Can you provide a well-reasoned argument and evidence to back it up? If not, we're in the same boat; I'm just more honest about it.

And what for?

I'm not sure there is a reason. If there is, I'm not aware of it. Do you know? Do you have evidence?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

...and because we can't it is impossible?

He didn't say that it was impossible. He merely pointed out that "the rules" we are familiar with have not been tested in the unfamiliar terrain that is creatio ex nihilo. More to the point, we aren't sure whether there is any such terrain to navigate in the first place.