The Greatest Command Proves Jesus is not God

[nothead]

Shema and the Trinity: The Oneness of God in Deut.6:4; Mk.12 in no way conflicts with the Trinity of God since it is the Oneness of being and not of Persons. The one God has revealed himself as three Persons of course.

Just ol' old Jack trying not to take this 'personal,' or shoiuld I?

Shturt, nobody says shturt. It ain't american.

Anyway 'person' and 'being' are synonyms. Only when you delegate your own meanings and make them distinct from each other can you make God three 'persons' and one 'being.' See the tendency toward convolution from the git-go?

What makes the Council of 381 authoritative anyway? They were special?

 

[Der Alte]

Shturt, nobody says shturt. It ain't american.

Anyway 'person' and 'being' are synonyms. Only when you delegate your own meanings and make them distinct from each other can you make God three 'persons' and one 'being.' See the tendency toward convolution from the git-go?

What makes the Council of 381 authoritative anyway? They were special?

Person and being are not synonyms. Animals are beings but they are not persons.

 

[ORWildcat]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He [Jesus, the Word] was with God in the beginning. ... The Word became flesh and lived for a while among us. We have seen his [Jesus, the Word’s] glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1:1,2,14).

 

[nothead]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He [Jesus, the Word] was with God in the beginning. ... The Word became flesh and lived for a while among us. We have seen his [Jesus, the Word’s] glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1:1,2,14).

There is an additional verse in John 1 which proves John was entirely monotheist, believing in One God the Father, and also indicating he cannot mean the Word is what you think:

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man hath seen God, then who is the Jesus they hath seen?

 

[nothead]

Person and being are not synonyms. Animals are beings but they are not persons.

Don't tell me the Google defn is not a real reference, Der. I will ask if you are an atheist again. They don't consider ANYTHING real evidence. Or reference to accurate fact.

Google defn Person:

1.
a human being regarded as an individual.
"the porter was the last person to see her"
synonyms: human being, individual, man/woman, child, human, being, (living) soul, mortal, creature; More

Person of your learning beaned by nothead once more? What creds do I have?

Um, I don't say stuff just off the wall?

 

[Near]

Don't tell me the Google defn is not a real reference, Der. I will ask if you are an atheist again. They don't consider ANYTHING real evidence. Or reference to accurate fact.

Google defn Person:

1.
a human being regarded as an individual.
"the porter was the last person to see her"
synonyms: human being, individual, man/woman, child, human, being, (living) soul, mortal, creature; More

Person of your learning beaned by nothead once more? What creds do I have?

Um, I don't say stuff just off the wall?

The distinction is "what you are" vs "who you are".
Christ is God. "What"
Who is God, "the Father, the Word, and the Spirit" and elohim, is one in "what" being, God.

 

[Near]

There is an additional verse in John 1 which proves John was entirely monotheist, believing in One God the Father, and also indicating he cannot mean the Word is what you think:

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man hath seen God, then who is the Jesus they hath seen?

John was a monotheist, and believed Christ as God.
Trinitarians are monotheists, to argue otherwise is futile.

 

[nothead]

John was a monotheist, and believed Christ as God.
Trinitarians are monotheists, to argue otherwise is futile.

But every man then knew what John meant when he said this statement: "No man hath seen God at any time." IF this is true then WHO and WHAT is the Christ they did see?

You are not addressing the problem with your view. Scripture must correlate. I have ALTERNATE terps for ALL of your verse-proofs. But this is not reciprocal, because I've done my homework, you haven't done yours.

Secondly trinitarians are NOT monotheist according to the ancient Jewish view. John could not be monotheist and see Jesus and God BOTH as God.

 

[nothead]

The distinction is "what you are" vs "who you are".
Christ is God. "What"
Who is God, "the Father, the Word, and the Spirit" and elohim, is one in "what" being, God.

The Jews made THIS distinction: God is only One Elohim, YHWH Elohim.

WHO: YHWH
WHAT: Elohim

Jesus is WHO: Jesus
Jesus is WHAT: elohim

Jesus is intermediate deity, as the angels are, but over the angels.
Jesus is not the One True God. If he was he would have SAID he was. Selah.

 

[Near]

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man hath seen God, then who is the Jesus they hath seen?

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.” Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. (John 14:7-11 NKJV)

Interesting how you should mention that no one "had" seen God, ho theos, a title that can be used for the Father, however, God is also Lord, Jesus is Lord, Jesus is God.
Nt writers did this in order to assign both deity to The Father and the Son, but not to confuse people as to say the Son is the Father in personage, in addition to being. Hence Jesus is called "Lord", and Thomas also calls him, "God".

As for no man having seen ho theos, that refers to no man having seen God, the Father in the Past, not that they never saw God, the Son.

My next point is critical, and you ought to address it:

People, while not seeing ho theos, as to say The Father, they did see God.

Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank. (Exodus 24:9-11 NKJV)

Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.” But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!” So He said to him, “What is your name?” He said, “Jacob.” And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.” And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:24-30 NKJV)

And the Angel of the Lord said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man’s hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” (Genesis 16:11-13 NKJV)

Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?” And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?” So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” But his wife said to him, “If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.” (Judges 13:17-23 NKJV)

The God of the Old Testament, is Jesus, the Commander of the Armies of the Lord.

 

[Near]

The Jews made THIS distinction: God is only One Elohim, YHWH Elohim.

WHO: YHWH
WHAT: Elohim

Jesus is WHO: Jesus
Jesus is WHAT: elohim

Jesus is intermediate deity, as the angels are, but over the angels.
Jesus is not the One True God. If he was he would have SAID he was. Selah.

Jesus is YHWH.

 

[apocolypticremedy999]

Jesus Christ is basically ELOHIM, he is the glory and image of God manifest, meaning that he's basically like a representation of the one true God and yet is truly God. God is a trinity. There are three in the "Godhead"; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and they all three make up God. They are three persons and each of them are God and each of them make up God, or the Godhead. Just like the word God is one word yet is made up of three letters, it's the same concept.

The Father set enmity between himself and man because of their sins and had set eternal damnation as a penalty for them. The Father wanted nothing to do with man as a result of their sin, but nevertheless had offered his Son as a way of reconciliation that if man in sin could put their faith on his Son, and love him with all their heart, mind, and soul, that the barrier of enmity separating man and God could be broken and man could thus be reconciled unto God the Father through his Son and could thus be forgiven of their sins.

This is why Jesus called himself; the "Way." For no one can come to the Father but through him, just as he said. It's God's deal with man, basically saying, "I don't necessarily love you, and indeed not as I love my Son, for you are wretched and godless and I'm set against you to destroy you in damnation, however it is not necessarily in my will that it should be so and you may not know what you do, therefore I'll give you a second chance, but you must love my Son also in order to be redeemed, or you will surely perish."

Also Jesus said;

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. -John 14:8-11


So Jesus is basically the image and glory of the Father.

 

[Near]

There is an additional verse in John 1 which proves John was entirely monotheist, believing in One God the Father, and also indicating he cannot mean the Word is what you think:

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no man hath seen God, then who is the Jesus they hath seen?

Btw, you used a bad translation, here's a better one... With greek,

John 1:18 Lexicon: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Nasb

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

God was begotten.

Jesus is God.

The Commander of the Armies of the Lord is God, he is Christ, and he is the great "I AM".

Now it's time to stop playing games and confess Jesus as thy "Lord and God". Who was, and is, and is to come, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega.

 

[shturt678]

Shturt, nobody says shturt. It ain't american.

Anyway 'person' and 'being' are synonyms. Only when you delegate your own meanings and make them distinct from each other can you make God three 'persons' and one 'being.' See the tendency toward convolution from the git-go?

What makes the Council of 381 authoritative anyway? They were special?

Shturt = 'truthS' spelled backwards so that I can lol at myself as I don't have the Truth, however hopefully have the truthful direction, and 'bugs' others as most could careless and are 'bugless.' Thank you again.

Let's eyeball Deut.6:4 again using the 'contextual' authority + the 'grammar.' Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." This does not mean Jehovah is one God, Jehovah alone for in that case YHWH lebadvo would be used instead of YHWH echad.

The idea is not, Jehovah our God is one (the only) God, but "one (or the only) Jehovah.

Thus what is predicated here of Jehovah (Jehovah one) does not relate to the unity of God, but simply states that it is to Him alone that the name Jehovah rightfully belongs, that He is the one absolute God, to whom no other Elohim can be compared.

Just ol' old Jack

 

[ChetSinger]

...and the great famous and unencroachable unitarian verse, Jn 17

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I don't think that undoes the trinity, because Jesus himself said "I and the Father are one".

 

[shturt678]

I don't think that undoes the trinity, because Jesus himself said "I and the Father are one".

Just ol' old ducking Jack

 

[Phantasman]

I don't think that undoes the trinity, because Jesus himself said "I and the Father are one".

He also said he and the disciples were one. You have to understand what "one" means.

 

[ChetSinger]

He also said he and the disciples were one. You have to understand what "one" means.

I think there must be two different contexts at work, because in John 10 his listeners understood it as a divine claim. In the very next verse they prepare to stone him for blasphemy: "you, being a man, make yourself God".

 

[nothead]

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

YHWH Elohim has said, "No man can see me and live." This comes from Ex 33:20.

So then John says it four times, twice referring to God, and twice referring to God the Father. (Back then Beta, God was ONLY God the Father; there were no add-ons in the monotheistic Judaic POV).

1 Jn 4

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Jn 1:18

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jn 5

37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jn 6

(John 6:46) - "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”

Parallel:

(1 Tim. 6:15-16) – “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.”

So you say God the Father ONLY cannot be seen, but this is not the traditonal understanding. This is TRIN understanding after the fact, and it completely ignores historical context i.e. what John meant.

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. (John 14:7-11 NKJV)

A totally PENTECOSTAL statement, all pentecostals knowing the key words, DWELLING and 'in me' and me IN him being the reciprocal relationship of the Holy Spirit to our spirit, and our spirit to God's spirit. God cannot be IN us in fact otherwise, neither the Christ.

Interesting how you should mention that no one "had" seen God, ho theos, a title that can be used for the Father, however, God is also Lord, Jesus is Lord, Jesus is God.

So too Abraham is 'lord' to Sarah, David is 'lord' to his army and strangers are 'lord' to Abraham. So...? I see you have trin-colored rosy shades on, making everything God-rosy regarding Jesus. But LORD means 'one with authority over another' for the most part. ADONAI came to replace the name of YHWH Elohim out of respect for the sacred name. However, the usage thereof does not abrogate OTHER uses of 'lord' in different contexts.

Nt writers did this in order to assign both deity to The Father and the Son, but not to confuse people as to say the Son is the Father in personage, in addition to being. Hence Jesus is called "Lord", and Thomas also calls him, "God".

Nice hedge since you know Jesus was only called 'God' one time ever.

As for no man having seen ho theos, that refers to no man having seen God, the Father in the Past, not that they never saw God, the Son.

Again this is not in the spirit of Ex 33. This distinction is a RATIONALE. Not true as God the Father is the ONLY God for the Jews.

My next point is critical, and you ought to address it:

People, while not seeing ho theos, as to say The Father, they did see God.

Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank. (Exodus 24:9-11 NKJV)

Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.” But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!” So He said to him, “What is your name?” He said, “Jacob.” And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.” And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:24-30 NKJV)

And the Angel of the Lord said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man’s hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” (Genesis 16:11-13 NKJV)

Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?” And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?” So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” But his wife said to him, “If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time.” (Judges 13:17-23 NKJV)

Like Moses who saw his hinder part, they did not see God in his full glory. In fact, GLORY veils God even in Stephen's vision, who saw Jesus at the right hand of 'glory.' He saw not the One True God in all of his splendor, he saw a bright radiance veiling the One True God.

I don't believe Jacob wrestled with God. HE thought he did, but all the Massoretic Text says is 'a man.' So then if a MAN touches your hip, and you cannot walk, and then names you another name, what would you say?

You saw God face-to-face as no other men did and lived? But is this correct or not? Even rabbinical commentary calls the man, 'an angel of the Lord.'

Let's put it this way. You think you can wrestle with God? Who would win, who is stronger, who would you bet on? And would it take all night? Obviously even from your POV, God is holding back. I say he holds back all right. HIS ANGEL was wrestling with Jacob, and whether HE held back or not is speculative.

The God of the Old Testament, is Jesus, the Commander of the Armies of the Lord.

Once Jesus is made God, he is all over the OT here and there, just like Waldo - let's find Waldo.

However, ALL context of the OT has only the One True God interacting with men. NO OTHER not even Baal who may have been a Canaanite God roughly of equal status to YHWH Elohim before Abraham knew Him as 'El Shaddai.'

 

[Dusky Mouse]

There is a very common theme in the posts and thread nothead makes. That of contradicting scripture. Anyone else noticed that?

Scriptures: Jesus Was God

John 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 10:30 I and the Father are one



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