The Great Tribulation

[iamlamad]

I, too, am absolutely certain that the eastern nations of this area will play a great part in the end times. But not as part of the kingdom of "the beast," but as part of the kingdom of "the Assyrian," "the king of the north."

In Daniel 11:40 "the king of the south" and "the king of the north" attack "the king" at the same time. This parallels Isaiah 7, where we read:

"'The LORD will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father's house--days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.' And it shall come to pass in that day That the LORD will whistle for the fly That is in the farthest part of the rivers of Egypt, And for the bee that is in the land of Assyria. They will come, and all of them will rest In the desolate valleys and in the clefts of the rocks, And on all thorns and in all pastures. In the same day the Lord will shave with a hired razor, With those from beyond the River, with the king of Assyria, The head and the hair of the legs, And will also remove the beard." (Isaiah 7:17-20)

Here we see two things, first a coming attack by "the Assyrian," and second, the armies of Egypt and Assyria typified as swarms of insects, coming upon the king of Judah at the same time.


In ancient times, both Egypt and Assyria invaded Judea, but never at the same time. This is one of the reasons I conclude that "the king of the north" and "the Assyrian" represent the same end time individual. Another reason can be seen in this map, which compares the the area ruled by the ancient Selucid Empire (the king of the north) with area ruled by the more ancient Assyrian Empire. As you examome it,otice that, aside from a few sparsely inhabited areas around the edges, these two ancient empires covered the same area.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

WHO is the "him?" The entire chapter is "the King of the North" versus the "King of the South." So the Him, starting in verse 36, is the latest "King of the North," but Daniel jumped many centuries from 35 to 36. So the "Him" in verse 40 is the King of the North. The King of the South pushes at him, the King of the North, but this makes the King of the North very angry and he retaliates.

I think this author did the best job with this verse:

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]New Living Translation[/FONT]​

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Then at the time of the end, the king of the south will attack the king of the north. The king of the north will storm out with chariots, charioteers, and a vast navy. He will invade various lands and sweep through them like a flood.

I believe the "King of the North," "the Assyrian," the "man of sin," and the first Beast of Rev. 13 are all the same entity.

LAMAD
[/FONT]

 

[random person]

Too bad I can't edit the choices:


I would have loved to change it to:

Jerusalem 66AD To Masada 73AD

FUTURISTS, please note the 7 years of Jacob's Trouble above.

 

[iamlamad]

Too bad I can't edit the choices:


I would have loved to change it to:

Jerusalem 66AD To Masada 73AD

FUTURISTS, please note the 7 years of Jacob's Trouble above.

Go ahead and bury your head in the sand. You will JERK IT OUT when you wake one morning and find you are LEFT BEHIND. Then, you will see:

The sun turning Dark and the Moon into blood.
All the green grass burned up, and 1/3 of the trees.
Salt water turning to blood.
Fresh water turning to blood
Little beasties from hell that STING like scorpions and BITE like lions
1/3 of earth's population killed in a SHORT period of time

These are just for starters. YOU will be hunted down, CAUGHT (God has already given the Beast authority to overcome you) and forced to take the mark, or lose your head. WHICH will you choose?

LAMAD

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 86:

Go ahead and bury your head in the sand. You will JERK IT OUT when you wake one morning and find you are LEFT BEHIND.

Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it's pre-tribulation? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That's why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

iamlamad said in post 86:

YOU will be hunted down, CAUGHT (God has already given the Beast authority to overcome you) and forced to take the mark, or lose your head.

Revelation 13:7-10 refers to the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), being allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13). There are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6,14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[random person]

Go ahead and bury your head in the sand. You will JERK IT OUT when you wake one morning and find you are LEFT BEHIND. Then, you will see:

The sun turning Dark and the Moon into blood.
All the green grass burned up, and 1/3 of the trees.
Salt water turning to blood.
Fresh water turning to blood
Little beasties from hell that STING like scorpions and BITE like lions
1/3 of earth's population killed in a SHORT period of time

These are just for starters. YOU will be hunted down, CAUGHT (God has already given the Beast authority to overcome you) and forced to take the mark, or lose your head. WHICH will you choose?

LAMAD

Nero Caesar Neron Kesar - Sixth Emperor of Rome (Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberias, Caius "Caligula", Claudius) called himself God, erected images of himself, beheaded Christians including Paul, and drove a dagger into his own throat on June 8th 68AD amidst Jacob's Trouble aka the 7 year Jewish-Roman War 66AD-73AD.

Gematria

N=50
R=200
W=6
N=50
Q=100
S=60
R=200

 

[iamlamad]

Nero Caesar Neron Kesar - Sixth Emperor of Rome (Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberias, Caius "Caligula", Claudius) called himself God, erected images of himself, beheaded Christians including Paul, and drove a dagger into his own throat on June 8th 68AD amidst Jacob's Trouble aka the 7 year Jewish-Roman War 66AD-73AD.

Gematria

N=50
R=200
W=6
N=50
Q=100
S=60
R=200

Your head is still buried: NO trumpet judgments have been sounded. No vials of God's wrath have been poured out. Did you FORGET how God destroyed the world with water? Could anyone have MISSED that event? No, they all died - save 8 people. The Day of the Lord will be God destroying the world again. TRust me, and trust John, NO ONE WILL MISS IT when it happens. WAKE UP! Understand that Revelation is for the time of the END. Not even the first trumpet has sounded yet. NO event has burning up all the grass and 1/3 of the trees. I believe this is speaking of nuclear war. It has not happened yet. The cattle are not "perplexed" because there is no grass. When this happens, it will be the beginning of the destruction of the planet, and the sinners on the planet.

By the way, the first trumpet CANNOT SOUND until all seven seals are broken. We are still waiting on the 6th seal, because the final church age martyr is still yet to be murdered. Why? Because the pretrib rapture has not yet happened to END the church age.

LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

Lamad,
they thought the end of the world was due, so the images of the Rev were about the DofJ years going right into the end of the world. There was an allowance that the world might not end, but the DofJ was due. As we now know, the world did not end, which always was the Father's call. As it is to this day.

You might be interested to know that the language of Dan 9 did use the flood analogy. But it meant the sweep of Judea by Roman forces to put down the 'rebellion that desolates' of 8:13.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad,
they thought the end of the world was due, so the images of the Rev were about the DofJ years going right into the end of the world. There was an allowance that the world might not end, but the DofJ was due. As we now know, the world did not end, which always was the Father's call. As it is to this day.

You might be interested to know that the language of Dan 9 did use the flood analogy. But it meant the sweep of Judea by Roman forces to put down the 'rebellion that desolates' of 8:13.

Sorry, you are a few generations off: Daniel 8:13 is speaking of the days of Antiochus Epiphanes when he sacrificed a pig on the altar and then set up an image of Zeus. Once Antiochus was defeated, they had to cleanse the temple. If you will notice carefully, verse 23, it says in the latter time of THEIR Kingdom, which must refer back to the previous verse speaking of the four generals that took over after Alexander the Great died. This chapter, then, is referring to the end of the GRECIAN kingdom, when Mark Antony and Cleopatra were made famous in their final defeat. However, chapter 8 ends with Antiochus. We know Rome finally conquered the last traces of the Grecian Empire. It is possible there is a double reference in verses 24-26 making reference to the Beast of Rev. 13. It is possible, but I doubt it.

LAMAD

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 88:

Nero Caesar Neron Kesar - Sixth Emperor of Rome (Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberias, Caius "Caligula", Claudius) called himself God, erected images of himself, beheaded Christians including Paul, and drove a dagger into his own throat on June 8th 68AD amidst Jacob's Trouble aka the 7 year Jewish-Roman War 66AD-73AD.

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

random person said in post 88:

Gematria

N=50
R=200
W=6
N=50
Q=100
S=60
R=200

Regarding the claim that Nero's name in Hebrew added up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18), is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling? For example, why was an "n" added after "Nero", to make "Neron"; and why was the "ae" of "Caesar" skipped to make "Csar", when, for example, the "ae" in "Israel" gets at least an "aleph" in Hebrew? Could "Neron Csar" in fact be an intentionally-altered, never-actually-used spelling that adds up to 666, just as people today could intentionally mistransliterate into Hebrew the name of someone living today so that the mistransliterated name adds up to 666 in Hebrew gematria? Also, just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. So even if it could be proven that the usual Hebrew spelling of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666, or that the usual spelling of the name of someone living today adds up to 666, this doesn't require that that person is the Antichrist.

Also, should we even assume that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Hebrew for it to add up to 666? For Revelation was originally addressed to Greek-speaking Gentile churches in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey), not to Hebrew-speaking Jewish churches in Judaea. And John the apostle used 3 letters from the Greek alphabet to express the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), not any letters from the Hebrew alphabet. (But this doesn't require that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Greek in order for it to add up to 666, for John used the Greek alphabet only because it was the most common one used by the believers he was addressing at the time that Revelation was written.) Also, even when "Nero Caesar" (instead of "Neron Csar") is transliterated into Hebrew, it doesn't have to result in the name adding up to 666:

N - Nun = 50 (cf. the "Ne" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3: Nun for the "N" and nothing for the "e")
E /
R - Reysh = 200
O - Vav = 6 (cf. the "o" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3 being the letter Vav)

C - Qowph = 100 (cf. "Kareah" in the Hebrew of Jer. 40:8, & "Caesar" being "Kaisar" in the Greek of Mt. 22:17)
A - Aleph = 1 (cf. the "ae" in "Israel" in the Hebrew of Gen. 32:28: Aleph for the "a" and nothing for the "e")
E /
S - Samek = 60 (cf. the "sar" in "Ellasar" in the Hebrew of Gen. 14:1: Samek for the "s" & nothing for the "a")
A /
R - Reysh = 200

Total = 617

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 89:

No vials of God's wrath have been poured out.

That's right.

The world won't experience the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the last stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the first vial, an awful sore will appear on only those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH God (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they have gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that is why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

iamlamad said in post 89:

The Day of the Lord will be God destroying the world again.

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 89:

We are still waiting on the 6th seal, because the final church age martyr is still yet to be murdered. Why? Because the pretrib rapture has not yet happened to END the church age.

Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

iamlamad said in post 89:

We are still waiting on the 6th seal, because the final church age martyr is still yet to be murdered. Why? Because the pretrib rapture has not yet happened to END the church age.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[random person]

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.



Regarding the claim that Nero's name in Hebrew added up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18), is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling? For example, why was an "n" added after "Nero", to make "Neron"; and why was the "ae" of "Caesar" skipped to make "Csar", when, for example, the "ae" in "Israel" gets at least an "aleph" in Hebrew? Could "Neron Csar" in fact be an intentionally-altered, never-actually-used spelling that adds up to 666, just as people today could intentionally mistransliterate into Hebrew the name of someone living today so that the mistransliterated name adds up to 666 in Hebrew gematria? Also, just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. So even if it could be proven that the usual Hebrew spelling of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666, or that the usual spelling of the name of someone living today adds up to 666, this doesn't require that that person is the Antichrist.

Also, should we even assume that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Hebrew for it to add up to 666? For Revelation was originally addressed to Greek-speaking Gentile churches in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey), not to Hebrew-speaking Jewish churches in Judaea. And John the apostle used 3 letters from the Greek alphabet to express the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), not any letters from the Hebrew alphabet. (But this doesn't require that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Greek in order for it to add up to 666, for John used the Greek alphabet only because it was the most common one used by the believers he was addressing at the time that Revelation was written.) Also, even when "Nero Caesar" (instead of "Neron Csar") is transliterated into Hebrew, it doesn't have to result in the name adding up to 666:

N - Nun = 50 (cf. the "Ne" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3: Nun for the "N" and nothing for the "e")
E /
R - Reysh = 200
O - Vav = 6 (cf. the "o" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3 being the letter Vav)

C - Qowph = 100 (cf. "Kareah" in the Hebrew of Jer. 40:8, & "Caesar" being "Kaisar" in the Greek of Mt. 22:17)
A - Aleph = 1 (cf. the "ae" in "Israel" in the Hebrew of Gen. 32:28: Aleph for the "a" and nothing for the "e")
E /
S - Samek = 60 (cf. the "sar" in "Ellasar" in the Hebrew of Gen. 14:1: Samek for the "s" & nothing for the "a")
A /
R - Reysh = 200

Total = 617

Preterists believe this refers to Nero Caesar, whose name in Hebrew characters equals six hundred sixty-six . Preterists take Nero's name, Nero Cæsar, and transliterate the Latin into Hebrew. An "n" is added to conform with the Hebrew spelling and usage of Nero's name, in a manner similar to the Greek adding an "s" (i.e., Jeremias, Jonas, etc.). Other names in scripture where the adding of an "n" may be seen are Abaddon, Apollyon, and Armageddon. Once Hebraicized, the Latin Nero Caesar becomes "nrwn qsr." Then using the numeric equivalent of the letters, it adds up to 666 as follows:

Nun = 50

Resh = 200

Waw = 6

Nun = 50

Qoph = 100

Samech = 60

Resh = 200
_______________
Total 666

 

[random person]

Your head is still buried: NO trumpet judgments have been sounded. No vials of God's wrath have been poured out. Did you FORGET how God destroyed the world with water? Could anyone have MISSED that event? No, they all died - save 8 people. The Day of the Lord will be God destroying the world again. TRust me, and trust John, NO ONE WILL MISS IT when it happens. WAKE UP! Understand that Revelation is for the time of the END. Not even the first trumpet has sounded yet. NO event has burning up all the grass and 1/3 of the trees. I believe this is speaking of nuclear war. It has not happened yet. The cattle are not "perplexed" because there is no grass. When this happens, it will be the beginning of the destruction of the planet, and the sinners on the planet.

By the way, the first trumpet CANNOT SOUND until all seven seals are broken. We are still waiting on the 6th seal, because the final church age martyr is still yet to be murdered. Why? Because the pretrib rapture has not yet happened to END the church age.

LAMAD

Revelation wasn't a sealed prophecy and its intended audience was the seven churches of Asia in the 1st Century.

You have mistaken the Day of the Lord for a pre-Trib rapture.

 

[twob4me]

~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT ON!!~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just a note that a few posts were removed in a thread clean up. Please remember the following rule listed in the Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose(SoP)

IIII. Additional Rules

• Full preterism is not allowed.
• Date setting or date speculation is not allowed.
• No Personal Prophecy (prophetic utterance) allowed.
• Do not refer to specific religious leaders (alive or deceased) as the antichrist, the beast, or the false prophet.

Please no date setting or speculation. Documentation of Mod Hat and thread clean is HERE for staff only.


~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT OFF!!~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[random person]

Futurists always overlook Matthew 24:21

For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world UNTIL NOW, nor ever shall.

And Matthew 24:34

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until ALL these things take place.

And given the fact Nero stabbed himself in the throat with a sword but Rome survived wars and disasters to rise again with Emperor Vespasian. Rev.13:3.

Nero was the fifth or sixth King of Rome depending whether or not one includes Julius Caesar. (Augustus, Tiberias, Caius Caligula, Claudius). Or Vespasian is the Sixth King. Rev. 17:10

 

[shturt678s]

Rev.7:14, "out of the tribulation, the great one," It's all Greek to me, however the adjective is added by a second article and thus emphatic, that is, it's like an apposition and a climax. "The Great Tribulation" via the English way of thinking makes this refer to a terrible time to come, for example, noting Matt.24:21-28 which refers to the destruction of Jerusalem. Here all the tribulations are combined throughout the whole New Testament in a compressed vision which is quite common in the ancient Greek. :o

btw the Antichrist is a man and has since been revealed, that is, not in some future era out of touch with us today, eg, the antichristian power and propaganda is even in the Protestant churches big time, unknowingly of course. Secondly, we are about at the end of this Tribulation, the great one where most looking for some terrible time to come? The best commentary of the "tribulation" in IIThess.2:11, 12 is Rev.9:1-21 unveiled of course. :o Have this one undressed and one can remain in during this spiritually deceptive time even in the Churches. Definitely won't hold my breath on this one.

Old Jack

 

[parousia70]

I have had experience with such lists before, and when I began to check in detail, found that the majority of those on the list did not even teach the alleged doctrine.

But to prove such a thing in this case would require me to waste much time over nothing.

How Convenient for you.....

Ok, forget my list, it's moot anyway... you are the one that made the claim, you ought to be the one to back it up with evidence.

Go ahead Show us your list proving what you said:

"almost every historian who is not a Preterist agrees that the Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian"

Who are these Historians?

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 94:

Futurists always overlook Matthew 24:21

For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world UNTIL NOW, nor ever shall.

Note the "nor ever shall". World War II was worse than 70 AD, even just for the Jews (i.e. the Holocaust). And not even World War II fulfilled the detailed tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which will occur in our future.

random person said in post 94:

And Matthew 24:34

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until ALL these things take place.

Just as some camps of partial preterism admit that Jesus skips thousands of years in Matthew 24:30, so such camps should be able to admit that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

--

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

random person said in post 94:

And given the fact Nero stabbed himself in the throat with a sword but Rome survived wars and disasters to rise again with Emperor Vespasian. Rev.13:3.

Nero was the fifth or sixth King of Rome depending whether or not one includes Julius Caesar. (Augustus, Tiberias, Caius Caligula, Claudius). Or Vespasian is the Sixth King. Rev. 17:10

Revelation 13:3 could have a dual meaning. It could refer to the revival of a dead, past empire, i.e. one of the 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1). And at the same time it could apply, along with Revelation 13:14b, to the revival of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) after he dies from a head wound (probably in an assassination attempt).

Regarding the revival of a dead, past empire, the 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

--

Regarding the revival of an assassinated Antichrist, the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) could be an android image of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could cause to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.

Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, that appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think that the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.

In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma, G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of supercomputers running advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of neural networks imprinted with the Antichrist's brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether it has consciousness or not, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's, for it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear to be omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world that it is not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: he could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his machine body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically-everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could just be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And in order to make it easy for everyone in the world to be able to see the image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, television, computer, GPS navigation system, and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a computer generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives, for it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic, and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.

And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times every day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged in order to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone and know exactly where everyone is.

Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly in order to see and hear what is going on around the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand that the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect that individual's noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of that individual's exact location, and order the officers to arrest that individual for blasphemy and treason. The offending individual could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (i.e. in a brainwashing camp, or through physical torture, if necessary), but if he proves recalcitrant, he will be executed (Revelation 13:15) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

 

[parousia70]

Note the "nor ever shall". World War II was worse than 70 AD, even just for the Jews (i.e. the Holocaust).

By what measure? Body Count, or actual "tribulation"?

If 20 people are killed instantly in an explosion and 5 people are slowly tortured to death over a period of weeks, which group suffered greater tribulation?

Body count is no way to measure the level of tribulation.

Jewish Women Killed and ate their own babies to save them from the tribulation suffered in the Roman Jewish War of AD 66-70.

Never heard one story of a Jewish woman killing and eating her own baby in WWII.

The fact is, there is no equal to the level of devastation experienced by millions of messiah rejecting jews as they were violently ex-communicated out of covenant with God in Israel's Great Tribulation of AD 66-70

Do to the covenental significance of that event, it can never be repeated, equaled or surpassed. Hense the "nor ever shall be"...

Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation

Is immediately to God the same thing as immediately to Human beings?

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean...
Matthew 24:34 could also include.......
The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to.....
Revelation 13:3 could have.......
The Antichrist may claim to be......
the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15) could be...... .
It could be like that.....
But the android's "consciousness" could appear....
it could have access ....
In this way, it could convince the world.....
he could be extremely strong.....
And he could boast of the "immortality"....
which could be made of titanium.....,
People could just be completely awestruck..........
They could consider him......
The Antichrist's image could be placed.....
it could appear on every smartphone, television, computer,...
it could appear as a computer generated image.....
And it could discuss with them....
the Antichrist's image could seem....
And the worship of the image could be connected....
For the image's supercomputers could make....
the image's supercomputers could open.....
and the image could then demand.....

And Pigs Could Fly someday
and Cows could give orange juice instead of milk
and the sky could turn yellow
the sun might become blue
and up may very well be down
and black could possibly be white

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Nero = 666

Two Witnesses = Peter & Paul believed to have died during the reign of Nero, James the lesser did in 63 AD.

Simeon led Jewish Christians out of flight from Jerusalem heeding Jesus prophecies.

1260 days = 42 months = 66 AD to 70 AD the temple has been given to the nations and they will tread under foot the holy city for 42 months.

Etc, etc!

That is my view also....

Luke 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice], outsideof the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring,
that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be treading/pathsousin <3961> (5692) forty two months.


https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
==============================
WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS 1ST CENTURY ISRAEL, JUDEA AND JERUSALEM

Matthew 24:
6 “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled;
for all these things must come to pass, but the end<5056> is not yet.
Mark 13:
7 “But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled;
for such things must happen, but the end<5056> is not yet.
Luke 21:
9 “But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified;
for these things must come to pass first, but the end<5056> is not immediate.”