The Great Tribulation

[Bible2]

sonshine234 said in post 20:

Many do not understand when Christ said "this generation" he meant just that not 21st century America

Just as some camps of partial preterism admit that Jesus skips thousands of years in Matthew 24:30, so such camps should be able to admit that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) "immediately after" the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

~

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

 

[Interplanner]

B2,
Do you really think God would restore an unfruitful tree as an "exciting fulfillment of prophecy"! Sheesh! Your theology is like a cartoon. Joel 2 as seen in Acts 2 is what happens when God restores. Stop now or start over. It hurts my brain to see people trying to say things like you just did.

What kind of moral warp are you in, that the generation that was crushed for not producing gets restored to that unproductive status 1900 years later as the 'biggest miracle of the 20th century'?

 

[iamlamad]

It is the time of the little season of the 5th seal.
The stars fall in the time of the 6th seal.

Jesus placed the stars falling as after the tribulation of those days.

DId you forget Jesus words (or just ignore them)? He said THEN shall be great tribulation....

WHEN was His THEN? It was immediately after the abomination of desolation that will come. WHERE will it come? It will come in Rev. chapter 11. Jesus said, WHEN they see this abomination they are to flee. WHERE are they fleeing in Rev? In chapter 12.

WHERE in Rev. Does John speak of the BEAST that CAUSES those days of Great tribulation? Not until chapter 13!

You are ALL WET! That means WRONG; MISTAKEN! Your theory is MYTH - far removed from the intent of the Author. The 5th seal is the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE...people are being added to that group DAILY these days. It is indeed tribulation today. But it is NOT "those days" of "Great Tribulation" that Jesus spoke of.

GET THIS STRAIGHT and KEEP IT STRAIGHT! The days of Great Tribulation Jesus spoke of will be happening from chapter 13 on through to chapter 16. The vials of God's wrath will SHORTEN those days. It is the BEAST that will cause those days! It will be the enforcement of the MARK and the enforcement of worshiping the image that CAUSED those days of GT.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Nero = 666

Two Witnesses = Peter & Paul believed to have died during the reign of Nero, James the lesser did in 63 AD.

Simeon led Jewish Christians out of flight from Jerusalem heeding Jesus prophecies.

1260 days = 42 months = 66 AD to 70 AD the temple has been given to the nations and they will tread under foot the holy city for 42 months.

Etc, etc!

WRONG! Still future.

 

[iamlamad]

Babylon is Jerusalem

Rev. 11:8
Rev. 17:9, 18
Rev. 18:24 see Matt. 23:29-35, 37-38 Luke 11:47-51, 13:31-35

You SELDOM write something that is truth - but this is truth - IF you are speaking of the "Great Wh**re Babylon in Revelation.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

B2,
Do you really think God would restore an unfruitful tree as an "exciting fulfillment of prophecy"! Sheesh! Your theology is like a cartoon. Joel 2 as seen in Acts 2 is what happens when God restores. Stop now or start over. It hurts my brain to see people trying to say things like you just did.

What kind of moral warp are you in, that the generation that was crushed for not producing gets restored to that unproductive status 1900 years later as the 'biggest miracle of the 20th century'?

Did you EVER read Ezekiel 37 - the valley of dry bones? Did it ever occur to you that what happened with Israel has NEVER HAPPENED to any other nation in the history of this planet? The truth is, GOD MADE PROMISES to Israel and will fulfill them. Perhaps you should read the book of Zephaniah.

LAMAD

 

[Biblewriter]

Babylon is Jerusalem

Rev. 11:8
Rev. 17:9, 18
Rev. 18:24 see Matt. 23:29-35, 37-38 Luke 11:47-51, 13:31-35

The very scriptures you are citing say the very opposite of what you are claiming.

Revelation 11:8 very clearly says that the "great city" "where also out Lord was crucified," "spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt." Neither Sodom nor Egypt is Babylon.

But Revelation 17 9 and 18 very clearly identify the city identified in verse 5 as "Babylon the great," as a woman that sits on "seven hills," and as "that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth." Both of these are unquestionable references to Rome, which was at that time, and is still, called "the city of seven hills;" and which was unquestionably the city which was at that time reigning over the whole known earth.

So the very scriptures you cited very plainly say that Babylon means Rome, and give Jerusalem the spiritual names of Sodom and Egypt.

And The fact that Revelation 18:24 says that Rome is guilty of the blood of prophets and saints, and the other references say that Jerusalem is also guilty of such blood, does not eve imply that they are the same city.

 

[iamlamad]

The very scriptures you are citing say the very opposite of what you are claiming.

Revelation 11:8 very clearly says that the "great city" "where also out Lord was crucified," "spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt." Neither Sodom nor Egypt is Babylon.

But Revelation 17 9 and 18 very clearly identify the city identified in verse 5 as "Babylon the great," as a woman that sits on "seven hills," and as "that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth." Bith of these are unquestionable references to Rome, which was at that time, and is still, called "the city of seven hills;" and which was unquestionably the city which was at that time reigning over the whole known earth.

So the very scriptures you cited very plainly say that Babylon means Rome, and give Jerusalem the spiritual names of Sodom and Egypt.

And The fact that Revelation 18:24 says that Rome is guilty of the blood of prophets and saints, and the other references say that Jerusalem is also guilty of such blood, does not eve imply that they are the same city.

All you have to do is read the last verse of chapter 17.

If you think this is Rome, you are sadly mistaken! John has already told you what the great city is. He did not change his mind between chapters,

LAMAD

 

[coraline]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y37rCFAUoMU

Yes.

And Daniel 12 predicts the great tribulation & the end of the days.

Daniel would rise from the dead (Sheol) to his inheritance (in heaven)

 

[Interplanner]

BW you know perfectly well that Jerusalem is called the harlot, which was a significant OT prophet declaration. And the Rev uses many of those, which is why it is natural to contrast the two women (harlot and bride) which are two Jerusalems like we already have in Gal 4. At least try to put themes and images together as the NT does instead of tearing apart for one distinction.

He was using the end of Lk 13 about the justification of punishing jerusalem for the killing of past prophets and believers. That implies a huge similarity.

Hello? When did Rome kill prophets? That was always Jerusalem and Israel. There is no declaration about Rome killing prophets by Jesus that has the stature of Mt 23 and the Rev. Huge mistake.

 

[Biblewriter]

All you have to do is read the last verse of chapter 17.

If you think this is Rome, you are sadly mistaken! John has already told you what the great city is. He did not change his mind between chapters,

LAMAD

There can be zero question that the great city which ruled over the kings of the earth at that time was Rome. What are you saying?

 

[Biblewriter]

BW you know perfectly well that Jerusalem is called the harlot, which was a significant OT prophet declaration. And the Rev uses many of those, which is why it is natural to contrast the two women (harlot and bride) which are two Jerusalems like we already have in Gal 4. At least try to put themes and images together as the NT does instead of tearing apart for one distinction.

No Jerusalem was not called "the" harlot. She was called "a" harlot.

In Isaiah 23:15, Tyre was also called a harlot.

In Jeremiah 3:6, Ezekiel 23:5, and Hosea 4:15 Israel (as opposed to Judah) was called a harlot.

In Micah 1:7 Samaria was called a harlot.

And in Nahum 3:4 Nineveh was called a Harlot.

So just because a city was called a harlot does not even imply that it meant Jerusalem.

He was using the end of Lk 13 about the justification of punishing jerusalem for the killing of past prophets and believers. That implies a huge similarity.

Hello? When did Rome kill prophets? That was always Jerusalem and Israel. There is no declaration about Rome killing prophets by Jesus that has the stature of Mt 23 and the Rev. Huge mistake.

Rome systematically persecuted Christians. And the church included many prophets, both John and Paul, who died in Rome, as well as many others who are called prophets in Acts 21:10, in 1 Corinthians 12:28-29 and 14:29, 32, and in Ephesians 2:20, 3:5, and 4:11.

 

[spiritandtruth2]

No Jerusalem was not called "the" harlot. She was called "a" harlot.

In Isaiah 23:15, Tyre was also called a harlot.

In Jeremiah 3:6, Ezekiel 23:5, and Hosea 4:15 Israel (as opposed to Judah) was called a harlot.

In Micah 1:7 Samaria was called a harlot.

And in Nahum 3:4 Nineveh was called a Harlot.

So just because a city was called a harlot does not even imply that it meant Jerusalem.

Rome systematically persecuted Christians. And the church included many prophets, both John and Paul, who died in Rome, as well as many others who are called prophets in Acts 21:10, in 1 Corinthians 12:28-29 and 14:29, 32, and in Ephesians 2:20, 3:5, and 4:11.

Why is it urgent to get out of Babylon the Great without delay?

Rev. 18:4: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.”

Rev. 18:21: “A strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: ‘Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again.’”

It cannot be Rome that's where the Pope resides.

 

[iamlamad]

There can be zero question that the great city which ruled over the kings of the earth at that time was Rome. What are you saying?

You are confusing "at that time" with the time in question - which is the 70th week still in our future. John plainly told us the "great city" in HIS MIND was Jerusalem.

Rev 11
Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Do you need to question where this clearly is? Jesus was crucified there. It is JERUSALEM, and John has called it "the great city."

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Why do you question what is so plainly written? This "woman" is to represent the great WH**EDOM which will take place when the Beast and False Prophet begin their reign of DECEPTION, fooling the WHOLE WORLD from where? From the city of Jerusalem.

LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

As I reread this today, I have to agree with BW if he says there's no necessary connection between the expression "the great city" and Jerusalem per se. But it does keep lurking in the background. And "Babylon" is referred to several verses before being explained.

But also, while there is some focus on "Babylon" in 17, the beast she is riding on is what BW was describing. They are partners for a season. But they have their own identity, and she is despised eventually. V7 goes right on about the beast without us knowing there was a beast in the picturer of ch 17. The despising is why some of us think Israel collaborated in control of its country for a while, but then the rebellion gained too much strength, and Rome blamed Jewish leaders for failing to control things (cp Caiaphas' fear of the rebels), and to control Christians or Rome blamed Christians for revolt.

All through Acts you do find Jewish people in key administrative positions throughout the Roman empire. They are often more hostile to the Christians than are the officials of the host country. A person could build a case for influence over the kings of the earth from that.

 

[random person]

The Woman is called "Sodom" and "Egypt" and "Babylon" (Revelation 11:8; 17:5, 14:8, 18:10, 21).

The Woman is located where Jesus was crucified (Revelation 11:8).

The Woman's dwelling place becomes a River of Blood (Revelation 14:20).

The Woman is Split into 3 Divisions (Revelation 16:19).

The Woman "sits on many waters" (Revelation 17:1) and these "waters" are diverse peoples (Revelation 17:15).

The Woman has fornicated with the Heathen World against God (Revelation 17:2, 18:3, 18:9).

The Woman is born along on a Beast (Revelation 17:3).

The Woman is the Mother of all harlots and Abominable Atrocities (Revelation 17:5).

The Woman is Drunk on the Blood of O.T. & N.T. Saints (Revelation 17:6, 18:24, 18:20).

The Woman is responsible for the death of the Prophets and Apostles (Revelation 17:6, 18:20, 18:24).

The Woman sits on 7 Mountains (Revelation 17:9).

The Woman is a dwelling place of devils (Revelation 18:2).

The Woman is a Prison for Evil Spirits (Revelation 18:2).

The Woman is a Cage, full of Dirty Birds (Revelation 18:2).

The Woman has a Full Cup of Iniquities (Revelation 18:5).

The Woman is Doubly Judged (Revelation 18:6).

The Woman considers herself a Queen (Revelation 18:7).

The Woman still considers herself Married (Revelation 18:7)
.
The Woman was Rich and Mourned when Judged (Revelation 18:10, 16-19).

The Woman merchandised the Souls of Men (Revelation 18:13).

The Woman is pronounced Desolate (Revelation 18:19).

The Woman's sound of Joy is taken away (Revelation 18:22).

The Woman's position of Creativity is taken away (Revelation 18:22).

The Woman's authority as someone equipped to Judge is removed (Revelation 18:22).

The Woman's Light-Bearing ability is snuffed out (Revelation 18:23).

The Woman's Bridegroom has Divorced Her (Revelation 18:23).

The Woman's Engagement/Marriage has been annulled/abrogated (Rev 18:23).

The Woman is called "This/That Great City" (Revelation 11:8, 14:8, 16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21, 21:10).

The harlot of Babylon

 

[Biblewriter]

The Woman is called "Sodom" and "Egypt" and "Babylon" (Revelation 11:8; 17:5, 14:8, 18:10, 21).

The Woman is located where Jesus was crucified (Revelation 11:8).

The Woman's dwelling place becomes a River of Blood (Revelation 14:20).

The Woman is Split into 3 Divisions (Revelation 16:19).

The Woman "sits on many waters" (Revelation 17:1) and these "waters" are diverse peoples (Revelation 17:15).

The Woman has fornicated with the Heathen World against God (Revelation 17:2, 18:3, 18:9).

The Woman is born along on a Beast (Revelation 17:3).

The Woman is the Mother of all harlots and Abominable Atrocities (Revelation 17:5).

The Woman is Drunk on the Blood of O.T. & N.T. Saints (Revelation 17:6, 18:24, 18:20).

The Woman is responsible for the death of the Prophets and Apostles (Revelation 17:6, 18:20, 18:24).

The Woman sits on 7 Mountains (Revelation 17:9).

The Woman is a dwelling place of devils (Revelation 18:2).

The Woman is a Prison for Evil Spirits (Revelation 18:2).

The Woman is a Cage, full of Dirty Birds (Revelation 18:2).

The Woman has a Full Cup of Iniquities (Revelation 18:5).

The Woman is Doubly Judged (Revelation 18:6).

The Woman considers herself a Queen (Revelation 18:7).

The Woman still considers herself Married (Revelation 18:7)
.
The Woman was Rich and Mourned when Judged (Revelation 18:10, 16-19).

The Woman merchandised the Souls of Men (Revelation 18:13).

The Woman is pronounced Desolate (Revelation 18:19).

The Woman's sound of Joy is taken away (Revelation 18:22).

The Woman's position of Creativity is taken away (Revelation 18:22).

The Woman's authority as someone equipped to Judge is removed (Revelation 18:22).

The Woman's Light-Bearing ability is snuffed out (Revelation 18:23).

The Woman's Bridegroom has Divorced Her (Revelation 18:23).

The Woman's Engagement/Marriage has been annulled/abrogated (Rev 18:23).

The Woman is called "This/That Great City" (Revelation 11:8, 14:8, 16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21, 21:10).

The harlot of Babylon

You are citing scriptures about different things as if they spoke of the same thing. Some of these scriptures plainly speak of Jerusalem, and others just as plainly speak of Rome. But you continue to ignore the details in these prophecies that clearly show this.

But pretending a problem does not exist does not get rid of it.

 

[Interplanner]

yet there is no clear distinction between the woman and the beast she's riding, even though ch 17 does not mention a beast until there she is riding it, and they are treated as one.