The Great Tribulation

[random person]

What is your opinion?

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[random person]

Nero = 666

Two Witnesses = Peter & Paul believed to have died during the reign of Nero, James the lesser did in 63 AD.

Simeon led Jewish Christians out of flight from Jerusalem heeding Jesus prophecies.

1260 days = 42 months = 66 AD to 70 AD the temple has been given to the nations and they will tread under foot the holy city for 42 months.

Etc, etc!

 

[Douggg]

Nero = 666

Two Witnesses = Peter & Paul believed to have died during the reign of Nero, James the lesser did in 63 AD.

Simeon led Jewish Christians out of flight from Jerusalem heeding Jesus prophecies.

1260 days = 42 months = 66 AD to 70 AD the temple has been given to the nations and they will tread under foot the holy city for 42 months.

Etc, etc!

Who had nero's name written on their right hand or forehead? Was Nero cast alive into the lake of fire? Who was the false prophet at the time of Nero? Did Nero have the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus?

Nero was not the beast.

 

[interpreter]

It is a faulty poll. It did not include my view that the great tribulation was WW II.

 

[spiritandtruth2]

It is a faulty poll. It did not include my view that the great tribulation was WW II.

It's not, it's faulty reasoning on your part.

(Matthew 24:21-22) 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.

You need to rethink what the Bible is saying.

 

[Bible2]

Douggg said in post 4:

Nero was not the beast.

That's right.

Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

Regarding the claim (made by some) that Nero's name in Hebrew added up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18), is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling? For example, why was an "n" added after "Nero", to make "Neron"; and why was the "ae" of "Caesar" skipped to make "Csar", when, for example, the "ae" in "Israel" gets at least an "aleph" in Hebrew? Could "Neron Csar" in fact be an intentionally-altered, never-actually-used spelling that adds up to 666, just as people today could intentionally mistransliterate into Hebrew the name of someone living today so that the mistransliterated name adds up to 666 in Hebrew gematria? Also, just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. So even if it could be proven that the usual Hebrew spelling of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666, or that the usual spelling of the name of someone living today adds up to 666, this doesn't require that that person is the Antichrist.

Also, should we even assume that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Hebrew for it to add up to 666? For Revelation was originally addressed to Greek-speaking Gentile churches in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now western Turkey), not to Hebrew-speaking Jewish churches in Judaea. And John the apostle used 3 letters from the Greek alphabet to express the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), not any letters from the Hebrew alphabet. (But this doesn't require that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Greek in order for it to add up to 666, for John used the Greek alphabet only because it was the most common one used by the believers he was addressing at the time that Revelation was written.) Also, even when "Nero Caesar" (instead of "Neron Csar") is transliterated into Hebrew, it doesn't have to result in the name adding up to 666:

N - Nun = 50 (cf. the "Ne" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3: Nun for the "N" and nothing for the "e")
E /
R - Reysh = 200
O - Vav = 6 (cf. the "o" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3 being the letter Vav)

C - Qowph = 100 (cf. "Kareah" in the Hebrew of Jer. 40:8, & "Caesar" being "Kaisar" in the Greek of Mt. 22:17)
A - Aleph = 1 (cf. the "ae" in "Israel" in the Hebrew of Gen. 32:28: Aleph for the "a" and nothing for the "e")
E /
S - Samek = 60 (cf. the "sar" in "Ellasar" in the Hebrew of Gen. 14:1: Samek for the "s" & nothing for the "a")
A /
R - Reysh = 200

Total = 617

 

[Douggg]

What is your opinion?

In true eschatology, it should not even be a question.

 

[random person]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y37rCFAUoMU

 

[Interplanner]

Nice try Doug, but you'll have to work for it! (true in "true eschatology") Mt 24A was about an "end." About things that took place in the mid 1st century. We know this from the extensive overlaps with the mission of Mt 10 and that language. End = eschaton, hence, eschatology. He didn't say what was ending that clear. You know the options I'm sure; they remain on the table.

 

[random person]

Are Millions Being Misled, Again?

Armageddon is coming April 8th! According to proponents, that’s the publicized date when it will be “unleashing everywhere” and “no one will escape!” The only question now being asked by a multi-media promotional campaign is, “Are you prepared for Armageddon?”

Fortunately, this alarming announcement is not about a future USA vs. Iraqi conflict or for the real so-called final “battle of Armageddon” at the supposed end of the world. I am speaking of Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins’ tenth and latest blockbuster title in their wildly popular Left Behind series. It is provocatively titled Armageddon.

Even though this is another work of fiction, LaHaye contends that his works of fiction are conduits of “God’s end-times truths.” There is no question that he is seriously committed to equipping “Christians with the prophetic knowledge that God expects His children to have.”1 The Left Behind series has proven to be the best vehicle to achieve his goal. Its 50,000,000 books sold-to-date are designed to reach people in a way his “non-fiction” books can not. And, they are doing just that—literally influencing and convincing multiple millions toward his view.

Unfortunately, his books are based upon an eschatological view that is not held by many Christians, and for good reasons. A case in point is this latest book. Below are ten biblical reasons why the theology behind Armageddon’s story line is biblically flawed.

1. The name of the battle is NOT “Armageddon” or “the battle of Armageddon.” It’s “the battle on the great day of God Almighty” (Rev. 16:14). Armageddon is the location of this battle. Big difference!

2. The location is NOT in Israel’s largest valley, 50 miles north of Jerusalem, as is commonly thought. Yet this 20-mile long and 14-mile wide valley (presently known as the Valley of Jezreel or the Plain of Megiddo) remains one of the popular stops on most tours of Israel. According to Scripture, the location of this battle “in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon/Megiddo” (Rev. 16:16). But “har” is the Hebrew word for mountain. A mountain is the exact opposite in meaning from a valley.2Since in Hebrew the ‘h’ is silent, the Greek rending became “Armageddon.”

3. This battle is part of the whole prophecy of the book of Revelation. According to Revelation itself, its whole prophecy were things that “would shortly take place” (Rev. 1:1; 22:6), were “at hand” (Rev. 1:3; 22:10), and were obeyable, heedable, keepable (Rev. 1:3; 22:7) in the lives of this book’s original recipients in that 1st Century time frame.

4. Likewise, the whole of this prophecy was not to be sealed up (Rev. 22:10). But LaHaye and Jenkins have, in essence, sealed it up for over nineteen centuries and counting via their postponement interpretation. Now, however, they want to unseal it by claiming that these events will finally and soon occur in our day and time.

5. A strong case can be made that the book of Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70.3

6. Har-Magedon/Megiddo, where this great end-time battle takes place, is a composite name and, most likely, symbolic. It is contained in a book filled with signs and symbols. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to conclude that it, too, is symbolic of a real battle. BAGD rightly recognizes that “Armageddon is a mystic place-name” and “has been identified with Megiddo and Jerusalem.” Yet they lament that “its interpretation is beset with difficulties that have not yet been surmounted.” 4 Or, have they? Read on.

7. The most likely case is that Revelation’s “Har” is Jerusalem. Geographically, Jerusalem sits on top of a mountain. To get there from any direction one must go “up to Jerusalem” (2 Sam. 19:34; 1 Ki. 12:28; 2 Ki. 18:17; 2 Chron. 2:16; Ezra 1:3; 7:7; Zech. 14:17; Matt. 20:17, 18; Mark 10:32, 33; Luke 18:31; 19:28; John 2:13; 5:1; Acts 11:2; 15:2; 21:12, 15; 24:11; 25:9; Gal. 1:17, 18). Jerusalem is also called God’s “holy mountain” (Psa. 43:3) and the “chief among the mountains” (Isa. 2:2-3; also 14:13; Exod. 15:17; Joel 2:32; 3:16-17).

8. Based on other Scriptures, one can also make a case for “Magedon/Megiddo” pointing to Jerusalem. During the time of Jesus and Revelation’s subsequent writing, large crowds of devout Jews would gather three times a year to celebrate their religious feasts in this central city. Other related Hebrew terms support this identification:

Har Mo’edh, the mount of assembly

Ar himdah, God’s city of desire

Har migdo, His fruitful mountain (Mount Zion)

megiddow, rendezvous – from gadad, to crowd, assemble, gather.

9. “Magedon/Megiddo” may also be comparative imagery. A great slaughter once took place in the valley of Megiddo (2 Ki. 9:27; Zech. 12:11). Throughout ancient history, this valley was also a favorite corridor for invading armies and the scene of numerous famous battles (Jud. 4-7; 1 Sam. 29-31; 2 Sam. 4; 1 Ki. 9:15; 2 Ki. 9-10; 22; 2 Chron. 35). So much blood was shed in this valley of Jezreel or Megiddo that it became a synonym for slaughter, violence, bloodshed, and battlefield, as well as a symbol for God’s judgment (Hos. 1:4-5). In our day, Armageddon has also become synonymous with and a symbol for the ultimate in warfare and conflict.

In a similar fashion, the word “Waterloo” has garnered a symbolic use. Back in 1815, this town in Belgium was the battleground and scene of Napoleon’s final defeat. Today, we have a saying that some one or some thing has met their “Waterloo.” We don’t mean they have met that city in Europe. We mean, by way of comparative imagery, that they have met a decisive or crushing defeat, or their demise. I suggest Revelation employs the word Magedon/Megiddo in this same manner.

10. History records that a great slaughter took place on a mountain in Palestine within the lifetime of the original recipients of the book of Revelation. In A.D. 70 the Roman armies of Titus totally destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. According to Eusebius, 1.1million Jews were killed. Even more perished in the Galilean fighting, died of starvation or disease, and/or were taken into captivity.

This event was certainly a judgment of God. I submit that it was more than that. First, it was a day of the Lord judgment of God and in keeping with Jehovah God’s many comings “on the clouds” in day-of-the-Lord judgments in Old Testament times:

Isaiah 13:10, 13—judgment of Babylon (539 B.C.)

Isaiah 34:4—judgment of Edom (late 6th century B.C.)

Ezekiel 32:7—judgment of Egypt (568 B.C.)

Nahum 1:5—judgment of Nineveh (612 B.C.)

Joel 2:10—judgment of Judah (586 B.C.)

Amos 8:9---judgment of the northern kingdom (722 B.C.)

Secondly, since the New Testament states that all judgment has been given by the Father to the Son (John 5:22), I submit that this A.D. 70 coming in judgment, was the coming of Jesus “on the clouds” (Matt. 24:30; 26:64; Rev. 1:7) and “in the Father’s glory” (Matt. 16:27; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26), as Jehovah God had come many times before (see above bullets).

Consequently, in speaking of his coming again, Jesus used exactly the same language of the Prophets (cosmic-darkening and collapsing, earth-shaking), described it exactly the same way (“on the clouds”), for exactly the same purpose (judgment), to accomplish exactly the same thing (destruction of a nation), and employed exactly the same instrumentality (foreign armies).

[bless and do not curse]

In sum, this decisive battle of the “last days” period in which they were living back then and there (Heb. 1:2) was totally relevant to, took place during, and was fulfilled within the lifetime of Revelation’s original readers. Hence, Revelation’s “Armageddon” took place in Jerusalem. Historically, its fulfillment is behind us, and not ahead of us. It is past, and not future.5

A strong case also can be made that all of the literal and symbolic end-time details portrayed in the book of Revelation were precisely fulfilled during these same events and in keeping with the time-restricted context this last book of the Bible imposed upon itself.

Of course, there is more, much more. But the biblical facts seem to indicate that LaHaye and Jenkins are over nineteen centuries off in their timing and topologically (valley vs. mountain) far afield in their location of this “battle on the great day of God Almighty.” They, and others, have erroneously termed it “the battle of Armageddon.”

I further suggest that it is time for God’s people to “wake up, O sleeper . . .” (Eph. 5:14) —i.e., those who love biblical truth, and not fiction or fantasy. We must stop abdicating this area of our faith to the likes of LaHaye and Jenkins. Everyday, millions are being adversely affected and many more deeply entrenched by their biblically flawed view. But as Jesus said, “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free” (John 8:32). First, truth must get a hearing. If it doesn’t, it can get left behind.

Will you be an ambassador for this truth at this critical time (2 Cor. 5:20)? If so, please discuss this short article with others, and pass it along.

Armageddon: Past or Future?   | John Noe    |  Preterist Archive

 

[Biblewriter]

5. A strong case can be made that the book of Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70.3

If that were true, then it would not be true (which it is) that almost every historian who is not a Preterist agrees that the Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian, with most selecting A.D. 94 as the most likely date.

Why do they say this? because, without even one exception, every historical witness that can be proved to be earlier than the sixth century, that is considered reliable, and that made an unequivocal statement about its date, put it at that time. This includes four witness that made statements that conclusively prove that they were depending on sources that none of the others used.

Will you be an ambassador for this truth at this critical time (2 Cor. 5:20)? If so, please discuss this short article with others, and pass it along.

I am a committed ambassador for proving the falsehood of Preterism.

 

[sonshine234]

Voted option 1, happened way back when.

 

[riverrat]

Biblewriter wrote:

I am a committed ambassador for proving the falsehood of Preterism.

 

[Bible2]

random person quoted a website in post 11:

This battle is part of the whole prophecy of the book of Revelation.

That's right.

The battle of Revelation 16:14b and Revelation 19:19 is best understood within the context of Revelation chapters 6 to 19, and especially within the context of Revelation 16:

The world won't experience the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the last stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the first vial, an awful sore will appear on only those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH God (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they have gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that is why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

random person quoted a website in post 11:

According to Revelation itself, its whole prophecy were things that “would shortly take place” (Rev. 1:1; 22:6), were “at hand” (Rev. 1:3; 22:10), and were obeyable, heedable, keepable (Rev. 1:3; 22:7) in the lives of this book’s original recipients in that 1st Century time frame.

In Revelation 1:1,3 and Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

random person quoted a website in post 11:

According to Revelation itself, its whole prophecy were things that “would shortly take place” (Rev. 1:1; 22:6), were “at hand” (Rev. 1:3; 22:10), and were obeyable, heedable, keepable (Rev. 1:3; 22:7) in the lives of this book’s original recipients in that 1st Century time frame.

Regarding "and were obeyable", the original Greek word ("tereo", G5083) translated as "keep" in Revelation 1:3 can be used in the sense of obeying commandments (John 14:15). But almost all of Revelation doesn't consist of commandments, but of prophecies of future events (Revelation 1:1,3, Revelation 22:7) which aren't things to be obeyed. For example, how would believers obey the prophecy regarding the weird locust-like beings (Revelation 9:3-11)? Instead, "tereo"/"keep" in Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:7 is used in the sense of holding onto something precious (John 12:7, John 2:10b, John 17:11,12,15, Ephesians 4:3) instead of casting it away as worthless. Believers are to "keep"/hold onto all of Revelation as being the precious truth, from Jesus to the church (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), just as believers are to "keep"/hold onto Christian faith itself (2 Timothy 4:7b), even during the worst time for the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

random person quoted a website in post 11:

According to Revelation itself, its whole prophecy were things that “would shortly take place” (Rev. 1:1; 22:6), were “at hand” (Rev. 1:3; 22:10), and were obeyable, heedable, keepable (Rev. 1:3; 22:7) in the lives of this book’s original recipients in that 1st Century time frame.

Regarding "this book’s original recipients", just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians (for all scripture is profitable: 2 Timothy 3:16) despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians, despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

Also, Christians don't have to experience every literal event in scripture, whether past literal events (e.g. Genesis chapters 1-11) or future literal events (e.g. Revelation chapters 6 to 18) for every scripture to be profitable to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16).

random person quoted a website in post 11:

Likewise, the whole of this prophecy was not to be sealed up (Rev. 22:10).

Revelation is almost entirely literal because it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

random person quoted a website in post 11:

Now, however, they want to unseal it by claiming that these events will finally and soon occur in our day and time.

Futurism considers today's headlines regarding such things as geopolitics and technology in order to help believers consider different ways for how exactly the never-fulfilled, yet still understandable, and almost entirely literal, highly detailed prophecies in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 might be fulfilled in our future. For example, Christians at any time in the past could understand that Revelation 6:4-8 refers to a horrible, literal war which will start the tribulation, and which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world. They could understand this without having to know, for example, what nation will start the war, or what weapons will be employed in the war. All futurism does is consider these things.

For another example, Christians at any time in the past could understand that Revelation 13:14-15 refers to a literal image (Greek: "eikon", something made in the likeness) of the Antichrist, which will appear to be alive, which will speak, and which people will have to worship or be killed. Christians in the past could understand this without having to know, for example, whether the image will be two-dimensional or three-dimensional (or both), or what it will be made of, or how it will be made to speak and appear to be alive. All futurism does is consider these things.

random person quoted a website in post 11:

Historically, its fulfillment is behind us, and not ahead of us. It is past, and not future.

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD. Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2]

random person quoted a website in post 11:

Isaiah 13:10, 13—judgment of Babylon (539 B.C.)

To properly understand the timing of Isaiah 13:10, it must be read in its context (Isaiah 13:1-22).

In Isaiah 13:1, "Babylon" isn't the ancient city of Babylon, but the present-day city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

For the 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

--

In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the armies of the world at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

Isaiah 13:10 refers to the same future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31.

Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East that in ancient times was called "Media" and is now part of Iraq.

In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes that conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.

random person quoted a website in post 11:

Isaiah 34:4—judgment of Edom (late 6th century B.C.)

To properly understand Isaiah 34:4, it should be read in its context (Isaiah 34:1-17).

Isaiah 34:4 refers to a future event which will affect "all nations" (Isaiah 34:2), the whole world (Isaiah 34:1).

In Isaiah 34:5, "Idumea" (Edom) isn't the ancient nation of Edom (present-day southern Jordan), but represents all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as Paul the apostle employs a reference to the man "Esau" (also called Edom: Genesis 25:30, Genesis 36:1) to represent all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world (Romans 9:11-22). And in Isaiah 34:6, "Bozrah" isn't the ancient city of Bozrah, but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world, just as the "Babylon" which will be destroyed in our future in Revelation chapters 17-18 isn't the literal ancient city of Babylon (nor the present-day one, in Iraq), but represents the corrupt civilizations of the nonelect people of all times throughout the world.

Isaiah 34 doesn't refer to the destruction of the ancient city of Bozrah. For its territory is in present-day Jordan, and it's still inhabited (it could be the city of Busaira). It's not an eternally-burning land of fire and brimstone which no living person ever passes through and won't ever pass through for all eternity (Isaiah 34:9-10).

Isaiah 34 won't be fulfilled until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), when the present surface of the earth and its atmosphere (the first heaven) will pass away (Revelation 20:11). And all the nonelect people of all times throughout the world will be judged and cast into the eternal lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15,10, Revelation 21:8, Revelation 14:10-11).

random person quoted a website in post 11:

Ezekiel 32:7—judgment of Egypt (568 B.C.)

Ezekiel 32:7 refers to a literal cloud covering the sun as part of God "setting darkness upon thy land" (Ezekiel 32:8) as a punishment, just as the literal darkness in Exodus 10:22-23 was a punishment.

random person quoted a website in post 11:

Secondly, since the New Testament states that all judgment has been given by the Father to the Son (John 5:22), I submit that this A.D. 70 coming in judgment, was the coming of Jesus “on the clouds” (Matt. 24:30; 26:64; Rev. 1:7) and “in the Father’s glory” (Matt. 16:27; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26), as Jehovah God had come many times before (see above bullets).

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the never-fulfilled Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

Matthew 24:29 can refer to literal clouds blocking the literal light from the literal sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars", i.e. meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and will be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the first heaven, i.e. the sky/atmosphere. And "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal fallen-angelic "powers" that currently rule the world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming, he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at his 2nd coming, he will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or physically changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[random person]

Babylon is Jerusalem

Rev. 11:8
Rev. 17:9, 18
Rev. 18:24 see Matt. 23:29-35, 37-38 Luke 11:47-51, 13:31-35

 

[Bible2]

random person said in post 17:

Babylon is Jerusalem

While the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem (and of other cities) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem. For Jerusalem just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is Jerusalem the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem, to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

random person said in post 17:

Rev. 11:8
Rev. 17:9, 18

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it is destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

random person said in post 17:

Rev. 18:24 see Matt. 23:34-35, 37-38

Regarding the symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18, Matthew 23:35 would mean that at the time Jesus spoke Matthew 23:35, in God's eyes Jerusalem was, as it were, the "crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt religions, one leg of the corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24). Today, in God's eyes Jerusalem may again be the "crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, as it is held sacred by 3 different religions (Islam, Judaism, and Christianity), two of which religions are the largest in the world (Christianity and Islam) in terms of the number of people who claim to adhere to them.

Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, another leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, yet another leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). Ultimately, all 3 legs of Revelation's "Babylon" will become headquartered in the literal rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), will make the capital of the world, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the future destruction of Washington DC and New York City by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what is sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7). And two nuclear bombs (developed in the "Manhattan" Project) were sown by the U.S. against two major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. in the future reap two terrorist nuclear bombs against two of its own major cities (including Manhattan)? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking him and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder 3,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children in New York City's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the two cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

Also, a "restrainer" must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come into worldwide power (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, Revelation 13:4-18). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). It could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure that it supports Israel. Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough to allow the Antichrist to come into worldwide power, could be God removing Michael's protection of the U.S. just enough to allow Washington DC and New York City to be nuked by terrorists. This could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its political and economic capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering it close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge debt, economy, and military. Its days as a superpower (but not as a nation) will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist to come into worldwide power (Revelation 13:4-18).

If Washington DC and New York City are attacked with nuclear bombs, will this really be the work of terrorists, such as Islamic jihadis? Or could it be a "false flag" operation, one presented to the world as an Islamic-jihadi attack, when in fact it will have been carefully stage-managed from behind the scenes by a powerful cabal, a worldwide secret society of Gnostic Luciferians, as part of their careful, step-by-step plan to prepare the way for the Antichrist (who is a Gnostic Luciferian: 1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4) to take over the world? And besides nuking Washington DC and New York City, could the cabal also nuke Los Angeles, destroying the major west coast port of the U.S.? And could the "Islamic terrorists" claim that they nuked Los Angeles because it contains Hollywood, and contains the San Fernando Valley, a center for pornographic video production, so that Los Angeles has contributed greatly to the corrupt entertainment culture that dominates the world today, even in Islamic countries behind closed doors?

Regarding Jerusalem getting destroyed, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will attack and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including a 3rd Jewish temple (which will be built) and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) being completely broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another throughout the city (Luke 19:44). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem in righteousness and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4), during his literal, 1,000-year physical reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

 

[Interplanner]

B2, you realize of course that your material always sounds like the Rev was written for a prophecy conference in Cleveland circa 2000? It was not. It comes from a completely different milieu and meant vital, pastoral things to its readers.

 

[sonshine234]

B2, you realize of course that your material always sounds like the Rev was written for a prophecy conference in Cleveland circa 2000? It was not. It comes from a completely different milieu and meant vital, pastoral things to its readers.

Precisely. Many want to make it a modern American book, but it was not written to America it was written to the First century Christians who were going through the great tribulation with the anti Christ. Many do not understand when Christ said "this generation" he meant just that not 21st century America