The Great Tribulation

[visionary]

Measure those outside in the outer courtyard.. Rev 11 starts the 42 months of tribulation

 

[Zadok7000]

You then assert that the 6th Seal and 7th vial are the same event by citing two verses which are NOT the same:

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains
vs
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.


6th seal = the great day of His wrath is come
7th trumpet = thy wrath is come
7th vial = fierceness of His wrath

His Wrath = His Return
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war...And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[NJBeliever]

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains
vs
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.


6th seal = the great day of His wrath is come
7th trumpet = thy wrath is come
7th vial = fierceness of His wrath

His Wrath = His Return
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war...And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

OK so in other words, you're just going to ignore the Scriptural argument I make showing that it's obviously not the same event. Why do we always have to do this? The dialogue is not productive if you're not going to address the specific point I make. just something to consider.

 

[zeke37]

You have also painted yourself into a corner because you are standing on the idea that the Second Coming is unexpected when it's clearly not. It is expected and known by believer and heathen alike.

the 2nd Coming is unexpected...the elect shall be aware that it is coming...they shall know that they are in the hour...
because they are watching...

but the exact timing is unexpected

the only time that the world will expect It,
is when they actually see Him Coming...
and defeating the evil here with the brightness of His Coming.

 

[B1inHim]

the 2nd Coming is unexpected...the elect shall be aware that it is coming...they shall know that they are in the hour...
because they are watching...

but the exact timing is unexpected

the only time that the world will expect It,
is when they actually see Him Coming...
and defeating the evil here with the brightness of His Coming.

Question... do you believe that the resurrection and Second coming are the same event?

 

[zeke37]

I believe that the Resurrection happens at His Coming

 

[B1inHim]

Either God is confused and doesn’t know the difference between Mount of Olives and Mount Zion, or someones interpretation of the two events is confused.

In Rev 14 Lord Jesus is standing on Mt Zion and he is becoming intimately affectionate between Himself and the 144,000 first fruits of His work.

BTW, these people KNOW who they are; they are being kept for GOD as chaste, virgins, holy people for His glory.

In Zechariah 14 it is Mount of Olives that Lord Jesus is standing on…

TWO separate Mountains geographically separated by 25-30 miles in distance.

The TWO scriptures are not the same place, thus the returns are different and then we have the in the clouds return…

Rev. 14:14-16 (KJV)
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. [15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. [16] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Now this is in complete harmony with;
1 Thes. 4:16-17 (KJV)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Unless we change words around and mix the mountains together then we would have one single solitary coming of the Lord

Yet, looking at this with the eyes of Truth, we see that Lord Jesus does in fact show up in the sky among the clouds and harvests the redeemed of Himself and then at an entirely different time and space He returns to the planet itself for a Second Coming and delivers the judgment of wrath on the ones who would not listen to even the message of hope and salvation given by the angels in verses 6 thru 13.

And those who die in the second coming are dead, stay dead and do not come back till the 1,000 years is finished;
Rev. 20:5 (KJV)
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished…

This is not opinion intermingled with the Word to attain a goal, it is the Word of GOD unblemished to attain its goal.​

Heaven for the saved and hell for the lost…​

And then a war, a Millennial Sabbath and eternity with God for the saved and eternal torment for the unsaved…​

Love,​

[FONT=&quot]Brother Jerry[/FONT]

 

[zeke37]

to armageddon and then to Zion....same day...same Coming...

 

[NJBeliever]

the 2nd Coming is unexpected...the elect shall be aware that it is coming...they shall know that they are in the hour...
because they are watching...

but the exact timing is unexpected

the only time that the world will expect It,
is when they actually see Him Coming...
and defeating the evil here with the brightness of His Coming.

You say the timing is unexpected but then finish by describing the Lord Jesus defeating evil with the brightness of His Coming. Where is "evil" when He arrives? They are ALL in the valley of Meggido, waiting for Him. because they know He's coming.

1) And that's point 1. The heathen nations, lead by the beast and false prophet travel from all over the world to go to Megiddo to battle Jesus Christ. The beast, false prophet and satan even release demonic spirits who go to all of the leaders of the world to promote the battle, get them to join in and travel to the specified location.

2) The Euphrates river dries up just so certain armies can make it to the battle.

3) Any believer seeing or hearing of this mass military movement to Israel after all the great and dreadful punishments being poured out, would know clearly that Christ is about to come.

4) Any believer who is into their word can count 7 prophetic years from the time of a confirming of a covenant between the antichrist and Israel until the Second Coming as it would be the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy.

5) ANYONE reading a Bible and just turning to Revelation could read the the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and know the exact order that everything is going to happen right up until the time Christ comes.

Their is marketing, planning, preparation and execution of the battle plan against Christ. The unbelieving peoples of the world will even know He's coming. A river supernaturally dries up just to get people there on time. And of course any believer or anyone with some sense who is leading through their Bible can see all of the incredible supernatural judgments taking place (an army riding supernatural horses, the waters turning to blood, giant hailstones falling, wormwood, etc..) and know the EXACT order of events leading up to the Second Coming. That's why we have the book of Revelation! So we can know these things.

It's obvious that believer and unbeliever alike can and will know when Christ is coming again (once the 70th week has commenced). Meanwhile, the Day of The Lord clearly begins at the 6th Seal, 13 chapters earlier. That is the thief in the night event. When Christ comes back to Earth, those who are still here (which in my view would not include the people in this thread) should know.

Psalm 2 1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed...

Luke 19: 41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.



Jesus our Lord says this just after entering Jerusalem on a donkey on the precise day prophesied by Daniel chapter 9. He wept because people did not know the specific time He was presenting Himself as Messiah. We're supposed to know when He is Coming to Earth again, since it is also prophesied by Daniel in the same prophecy (in addition to the other points listed). Just consider these reasons. God bless.

 

[marklbernard]

Can I just say that circular arguments regarding eschatology are not fruitful at all. There are many positions, and each one is adamant that they can prove their position. To even try to disprove or prove one position over another is a waste of time. This is my theology on the end times, Jesus is coming, it's going to get worst, hang on tight, Christ will overcome, we will all go to heaven (if we trust in Christ) as for pre or post, pray for pre and prepare for post. I think that our emphasis should on 1) bringing others to Christ 2) maturing them in Christ through discipleship. most of the people I see here debating on this forum have enough knowledge in Christ, my question for you to ask yourself is "what am I doing with what I have?"

Now I am not saying there is no place for legitimate debate, however over 20 years in God of every area of debate in theology that is the nastiest, and ends in the most ungodliness is the argument over the end times.

Just my 2 cents worth

 

[NJBeliever]

Can I just say that circular arguments regarding eschatology are not fruitful at all. There are many positions, and each one is adamant that they can prove their position. To even try to disprove or prove one position over another is a waste of time. This is my theology on the end times, Jesus is coming, it's going to get worst, hang on tight, Christ will overcome, we will all go to heaven (if we trust in Christ) as for pre or post, pray for pre and prepare for post. I think that our emphasis should on 1) bringing others to Christ 2) maturing them in Christ through discipleship. most of the people I see here debating on this forum have enough knowledge in Christ, my question for you to ask yourself is "what am I doing with what I have?"

Now I am not saying there is no place for legitimate debate, however over 20 years in God of every area of debate in theology that is the nastiest, and ends in the most ungodliness is the argument over the end times.

Just my 2 cents worth

I respectfully disagree. I don't find the debates in here to be nasty or disrespectful for the overwhelming majority of the discussions in here (and I've been in many debates). I seriously think it's good for those who want to study scriptures on eschatology to push each other's thinking and challenge positions in order to try and get better understanding of the scriptures.

I am not going to get into what I do for the Kingdom because I have no interest in boasting. But please know that I take my responsibility as an ambassador of Christ and messenger of the Gospel very seriously and I am very committed to spreading it and working in my local church.

So while I think it's of FIRST importance to be delivering the Gospel to the lost, there's nothing wrong with having some discussion on different Biblical issues. Especially when there are people out there who are doing things that are much, much more unfruitful, like watching television. lol.

God bless.

 

[Zadok7000]

OK so in other words, you're just going to ignore the Scriptural argument I make showing that it's obviously not the same event. Why do we always have to do this? The dialogue is not productive if you're not going to address the specific point I make. just something to consider.

Why are people hiding from His Wrath in the 6th Seal if His Return is so far off?

 

[NJBeliever]

Why are people hiding from His Wrath in the 6th Seal if His Return is so far off?

Because they know God is in Heaven pouring out his punishment on them. The Old Testament verses about the Day of The Lord never mention the arrival of God the Father or Christ on Earth. It's all about catastrophes, global earthquakes and the shaking of stars. But it's on such a scale that people of the world know this is no normal disaster but God Himself rising to punish the world. God The Father acts first and then the Son comes at the end. The Lord is avenging the blood of his saints and punishing the heathen. Christ's Second Coming is to install Him in His proper place as ruler of the Earth. The actual "battle" of Armagedon lasts one verse! Jesus shows up and it's over. Period. He locks away satan, throws the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire the wicked are sent to wait for the second death and Jesus now rules.

Again, I think I have shown that the 6th seal and 7th vial are not the same event. And given very reasonable and logical reasons why anyone can know when Christ is coming once the 70th week commences. Believe me, being on this site, The Lord has shown me that this is the key issue that is causing such division on the rapture. That's why I focus on it rather than rapture proof-texts. If we can just look at this one question logically, a lot of other Scripture then falls into place.

 

[Znex]

Either God is confused and doesn’t know the difference between Mount of Olives and Mount Zion, or someones interpretation of the two events is confused.

In Rev 14 Lord Jesus is standing on Mt Zion and he is becoming intimately affectionate between Himself and the 144,000 first fruits of His work.

BTW, these people KNOW who they are; they are being kept for GOD as chaste, virgins, holy people for His glory.

In Zechariah 14 it is Mount of Olives that Lord Jesus is standing on…

TWO separate Mountains geographically separated by 25-30 miles in distance.

You forget that The Lord is so great that even the heavens cannot contain him; is it so impossible therefore for Jesus to stand on Mount Zion and the Mount of Olives at the same time?

 

[zeke37]

Olives for the battle, and then victorious, on to Zion

but only one more Coming.

 

[Zadok7000]

Because they know God is in Heaven pouring out his punishment on them.

When does the Wrath of God occur?

 

[SoundCard]

When does the Wrath of God occur?

Isn't it during the final 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation during the Great Tribulation?

 

[B1inHim]

Isn't it during the final 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation during the Great Tribulation?

EXACTLY

 

[Douggg]

You then assert that the 6th Seal and 7th vial are the same event by citing two verses which are NOT the same:

Revelation 16: 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Revelation 6: 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

On its face it's obvious these cannot be the two same events. At the 6th seal, the mountains are moved out of their place but they still exist. The rich and powerful seek refuge in them and cry out to them.

At the 7th vial the mountains are gone. They cannot be found. Your interpretation is clearly incorrect.
You have also painted yourself into a corner because you are standing on the idea that the Second Coming is unexpected when it's clearly not. It is expected and known by believer and heathen alike.

Hi NJ, I am going to agree with you that the Second Coming will impossible to miss, once the re-movement of the heavenly bodies take place and the cosmos parts, and the peoples of the earth see Jesus before the throne of God in heaven (the sixth seal).

However, the 7 vial could take place during the 45 days timeframe from when the cosmos parts (6th seal)... until when Jesus and his armies descend from heaven to destroy those gathered at Armageddon to fight him.

Here is the sequence.

1. The sixth vial is poured out and the kings of the east march toward the mideast. The Antichrist is engaged in the Daniel 11:40-45 battles. News from the east alarms him.

2. The sixth seal takes place and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God in heaven. And the evil men of the earth desire that the mountains fall on them.

3. As the cosmos parts and seeing Jesus before the throne of God, which causes panic among the kings of the earth enough to want the mountains to fall on them, it takes the AC, Satan, and the FP to convince them to band together (their armies are already in the middle east due to the battles described in Daniel 11:40-45) at Armageddon to stop Jesus from returning. The three seducing spirits is the second part of the sixth vial.

4. The armies prepare for 45 days. During that 45 days the 7th vial is poured out and the great earthquake takes place and the hail coming directly from the heaven where God dwells and all the mountains flatten and islands disappear.

5. At the end of the 45 days, Jesus and his armies descend from heaven, Revelation 19. Jesus then destroys the armies gathered against him and throws the AC and FP into the lake of fire.

From the time that the world sees Jesus in heaven before the throne of God, they have a 45 day period - so it is beyond any doubt that His Second Coming is totally expected - within those parameters.

However, an argument could be made that the shaking of the powers of the universe and departure of the cosmos - would be something totally unexpected to the unGodly at the time who are busy fighting each other in the middleeast. In that respect, the Second Coming could be like a thief.

I am not saying the rapture takes place then (I am pretrib and the rapture has other qualifications that can't be met during the end of the Great Triblation), but the Godly will want to make sure that they are behaving righteously when Jesus suddenly appears in heaven before the throne of God on that day when the cosmos is taken away (sixth seal).

The Godly should also be aware that from the time the AOD is setup to be worshiped it will be not longer than 1335 days that Jesus returns to this earth - His Second Coming.


Doug L.

 

[Douggg]

double post deleted by me.