The Great Oxygen Event

[Job 33:6]

My resource is the ONLY game in town. You say I am wrong because I do not want to take the time to answer your questions. OH well, so be it, I have better things to do with my time.

I say that your source is wrong because it is contradictory. It suggests that mankind was around 200 million years ago. That's not scientific at all.

 

[Diamond72]

I say that your source is wrong because it is contradictory.

You are quoting something that I said, that was just me thinking out loud. I will try not to make that mistake again. Clearly, you have not done your homework to read the source for yourself. Maybe you can get AI to give you a summary of what Schroder is saying. Although his web page is very condensed for those with a short attention span who do not want to read the book. If you want to tear him apart you have to read and study what he said.

Again HE is the ONLY game in town. NO one else can get science to line up with Genesis. If you believe that or not does not change the fact that he found a way to get Theistic Evolution to work. If you think you can do better then show us what you have. Science goes with the best explanation until something better comes along. So if you have something better then show us what you have to offer.

I understand that creationism leaves a LOT to be desired. Intelligent design for example does not stand up in court as having enough evidence to accept it's validity. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, which was a significant legal challenge to the teaching of Intelligent Design

 

[Job 33:6]

You are quoting something that I said, that was just me thinking out loud. I will try not to make that mistake again.

Ok, well when you figure out what it is that you're trying to say, I'll be here. Don't blame other people for your own mixed signals.

 

[Diamond72]

Ok, well when you figure out what it is that you're trying to say,

I am not the one trying to say it. I always quote people and let them defend themselves. Again you have failed to come up with something better. Where did you get your degree in astro physics from? Actually Schroder got his degree from MIT which is considered the best. As well Harvard across the river from MIT is considered the best. People think these schools are difficult to get into. You have to be able to do the work and only one is 500 is able to do that.

Schroeder received his BSc in 1959, his MSc in 1961, and his PhD in nuclear physics and earth and planetary sciences in 1965, from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). He worked seven years on the staff of the MIT physics department.

So I applaud your attempt to show that your opinions have any substance at all. The only problem is you have failed to show us that.

 

[Diamond72]

Don't blame other people

I am not blaming anyone. I am answering questions to the best of my ability. So the conversation has to do with what you are interested in and want to talk about. Even though I bring up a subject to talk about.

 

[Doug Brents]

Nope.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

When God began, the earth was chaos. It doesn't say when it was that God began creating. Only that He did. And in 6 days, he created the tohu wa bohu earth into an earth that was no longer tohu wa bohu.

God didn't create chaos and then go back and say "oh wait, this is a problem, let me create it again in 6 days".

Oops! I didn't mean to create that, let me take six more days to go back and clean it up.

"By faith we understand that the [d]world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible." (Heb 11:3)

Yes, it is very clear when God began creating. He created the heavens and the Earth "in the beginning". That is when He began; "in the beginning". And it is confirmed in Heb 11:3 that He made everything that exists out of things that cannot be seen, His own power.

And no, there was not an "oops". God made things exactly as He chose, in His timing, and always completely in His control.

 

[Doug Brents]

I come up with 5995 from when Adam was born or created. 1995 years from the beginning of the Church Age. The church age is ending and the Kingdom age is beginning.

The Church age is the Kingdom age, because the Church is the Kingdom of God.

So the universe is expanding into nothing? What if the universe would shrink? Would nothing return?

There would be God. Outside of everything that is, there is nothing, or else it would be a part of all that is, no?

 

[Job 33:6]

"By faith we understand that the [d]world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible." (Heb 11:3)

Yes, it is very clear when God began creating. He created the heavens and the Earth "in the beginning". That is when He began; "in the beginning". And it is confirmed in Heb 11:3 that He made everything that exists out of things that cannot be seen, His own power.

And no, there was not an "oops". God made things exactly as He chose, in His timing, and always completely in His control.

The "beginning" is when God began creating. The text says nothing about how long the earth was formless before God began.

That's why some translations simply translate the passage as follows:

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Or

Genesis 1:1-3 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters— [3] God said, “Let there be light.” And so light appeared.

It's similar to saying "When George began to create the cookies, the cookies were without form. So George said, let there be a cookie cutter".

The story is about George creating and when he began to do so. It's not about the age of the cookie dough.

 

[Doug Brents]

The "beginning" is when God began creating. The text says nothing about how long the earth was formless before God began.

It does say how long it was formless: one day. Because "in the beginning" (when time began and God started creating everything from nothing), God made the heavens and the Earth right then. There was nothing before the beginning, or that would not have been the beginning.

That's why some translations simply translate the passage as follows:

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSVUE
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Or

Genesis 1:1-3 CEB
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters— [3] God said, “Let there be light.” And so light appeared.

All of those say the same thing: "When God began to create/in the beginning God created".... This means that when God made from nothing everything that is, He started as one point, and that point is "the beginning". Nothing existed before that point. And the Earth He created at that point was without form or shape, and it was dark.

It's similar to saying "When George began to create the cookies, the cookies were without form. So George said, let there be a cookie cutter".

The story is about George creating and when he began to do so. It's not about the age of the cookie dough.

Any story about what man does with things that God made cannot compare with the story of how God created everything from nothing. Man cannot create anything from nothing. Only God is capable of that. God made the Earth and all the heavens (space) from nothing beyond His own imagination. And then He shaped those things into what we have today. But there was nothing there before the beginning.

 

[Doug Brents]

I do a lot with rock art. Every rock has a story to tell. I like to balance them. It is amazing how easy they are to balance.

The events line in the Bible line up with science, but the time is clearly not consistent. Gerald Schroeder's PhD resolves that issue with Einstein's theory of relativity. Each day in Genesis is half the length of the day before. I struggled with that for 20 years until Schroeder provided the solution. I do not do a lot of fancy math. Each day is half the day before. Schroeder does the exact math on his website. For me day one is 8 billion years. Very simple math. The earth is 4.5 billion years, the universe is 12.5, so that means the first day when God made the Heavens and the Earth is 8 billion years.

The second day is 4 billion. What happened? The earth cooled enough so that water became just that water a liquid. Water can be solid, a liquid or gas - vaper depending on the temperature. We are MOSTLY made up of water. Individual humans can be considered drops of water in the sea of humanity. And so on. No water, no humans.

Day three is 2 billion years ago. What happened? The great oxygen event. As a geologiest you would know a lot about day three because we can see the red in the rocks at that layer. The bible makes second hand referance to this. The clay God used to make Adam was red. God beathed life into Adam, that in part involves oxygen.

Day four is 1 billion years. Mesoproterozoic Era That has to do with light. Where does oxygen come from? Light. What does google say? "Around one billion years ago, a significant event in Earth's history was the evolution of multicellular life, marking a shift from primarily single-celled organisms to more complex life forms, often referred to as a "slow revolution" in the evolution of life on Earth; this period also saw the development of more diverse microbial organisms."

Day five - 500 million years ago Cambrian explosion.

Day six 250 million years ago. God created male and female in His image.

Day 7 125 million when God was resting we had the break up of pangea.

Day 8 75 million years ago was the Cretaceous Period and the extinction of most dinosaurs and other species.

One small problem with this whole theory: There was only one morning and one evening between "the beginning" of Creation and the end of "day one". Eight billion (8,000,000,000) years would include at least two trillion, nine hundred twenty billion (2,920,000,000,000) mornings and evenings. Since we all accept God as being correct and accurate (no contradictions or errors in Scripture), we cannot accept two trillion plus days in just one morning and evening.

 

[Job 33:6]

It does say how long it was formless: one day. Because "in the beginning" (when time began and God started creating everything from nothing), God made the heavens and the Earth right then. There was nothing before the beginning, or that would not have been the beginning.

No, it's not formless for 1 day. Creation occurs over 6 days. In fact, the earth is given form on day 3.

Genesis 1:9-10 CEB
[9] God said, “Let the waters under the sky come together into one place so that the dry land can appear.” And that’s what happened. [10] God named the dry land Earth, and he named the gathered waters Seas. God saw how good it was.

 

[Job 33:6]

Any story about what man does with things that God made cannot compare with the story of how God created everything from nothing. Man cannot create anything from nothing. Only God is capable of that. God made the Earth and all the heavens (space) from nothing beyond His own imagination. And then He shaped those things into what we have today. But there was nothing there before the beginning.

It's not a matter of comparing God with man. It's a matter of observing how the term bara is used. And as noted already, when God bara'd in the Bible, he did this for Jerusalem, he did it for a blacksmith. He did it for the Ammonites, he did it for a signpost etc.

The term involves the giving form to things, or appointment of things, assigning things etc. Not the materialistic appearance of things. And this is just a fact of the terms. That's why Jeremiah refers to Jerusalem as tohu wa bohu. Jeremiah wasn't saying that Jerusalem disappeared out of thin air. Rather he is describing how the land was a barren empty void or wasteland.

 

[Doug Brents]

No, it's not formless for 1 day. Creation occurs over 6 days. In fact, the earth is given form on day 3.

Genesis 1:9-10 CEB
[9] God said, “Let the waters under the sky come together into one place so that the dry land can appear.” And that’s what happened. [10] God named the dry land Earth, and he named the gathered waters Seas. God saw how good it was.

Point taken. My point is that it was not formless for 8 billion years. It was formless for only a number of days, because it was given form within days of being made from nothing.

 

[Doug Brents]

It's not a matter of comparing God with man. It's a matter of observing how the term bara is used. And as noted already, when God bara'd in the Bible, he did this for Jerusalem, he did it for a blacksmith. He did it for the Ammonites, he did it for a signpost etc.

The term involves the giving form to things, or appointment of things, assigning things etc. Not the materialistic appearance of things. And this is just a fact of the terms. That's why Jeremiah refers to Jerusalem as tohu wa bohu. Jeremiah wasn't saying that Jerusalem disappeared out of thin air. Rather he is describing how the land was a barren empty void or wasteland.

In some places (and in every place where it is associated with mankind), maybe it does, but in Gen 1:1 it means that God made everything from nothing, as Heb 11:3 confirms.

 

[Job 33:6]

In some places (and in every place where it is associated with mankind), maybe it does, but in Gen 1:1 it means that God made everything from nothing, as Heb 11:3 confirms.

Hebrews 11:3 is identifying God as creator of all, but it is not a retelling of Genesis. And that's an important distinction. Recognizing that Genesis speaks of creation over 6 days is not in contradiction with the understanding that God made everything (in a grander sense).

 

[Job 33:6]

Point taken. My point is that it was not formless for 8 billion years. It was formless for only a number of days, because it was given form within days of being made from nothing.

The text just doesn't say how long it was formless. Be it 10 minutes, be it a fraction of a second, or be it billions of years. It's just not something that the text speaks into.

And trust me, I fully understand how old earth creationists try to force it to say that Genesis describes billions of years of time (it doesn't say any such thing). But likewise, the text also doesn't say, at least not in Genesis, that the earth didn't exist at all before God began creating.

There is a third option here that many people overlook for various reasons. And that third option is that, Genesis is describing God's creative acts. That's what's important. Not so much the question of how short or long before God began, that the earth was present.

 

[Job 33:6]

The text just doesn't say how long it was formless. Be it 10 minutes, be it a fraction of a second, or be it billions of years. It's just not something that the text speaks into.

And trust me, I fully understand how old earth creationists try to force it to say that Genesis describes billions of years of time (it doesn't say any such thing). But likewise, the text also doesn't say, at least not in Genesis, that the earth didn't exist at all before God began creating.

There is a third option here that many people overlook for various reasons. And that third option is that, Genesis is describing God's creative acts. That's what's important. Not so much the question of how short or long before God began, that the earth was present.

A good analogy for this would be something like a play.

You go to Broadway in New York. And you're going to see your favorite play.

And there is a question. When did the play begin? And someone could say, well, the play began in 1910 when Andrew Webber sat down and was thinking about the phantom of the Opera and...

Or

Someone could say, well the play began at 9am on Thursday when the curtains opened.

"The beginning" can be understood in different ways. And what way is described in Genesis, is going to come down to what story is important to the author to state. Whomever you understand that author to be or however God interacts with his chosen prophets to share that story, it's their perspective that is going to be shared.

And it's not necessarily wrong to say that the play began when the curtains opened at 9am on thursday, even if ultimately the play also began in 1910 with someone initially speaking the plays script into existence.

What is the more important beginning to describe? And for many people, Thursday morning at 9am is a more important event, than whatever happened in 1910 with the original author's development of the script. When your kid is in a school play and they're up on stage in a costume, you're worried about being there on time, and being present at that moment. And while it is important to know who wrote the play long ago (the original beginning), sometimes thats just not the story that people want to tell or hear about.

And someone could say, well you can't have your kids play if someone didn't originally sit down in the 1900s and write the script.

Well that is true. However, that still doesn't mean that that's the most important beginning to talk about. I'm more worried about my kid saying the right lines and being a part of something special on Thursday morning. And the original author may also find value in speaking about that 9am start, rather than his initial writing of the play. Both are important stories.

 

[Doug Brents]

Hebrews 11:3 is identifying God as creator of all, but it is not a retelling of Genesis. And that's an important distinction. Recognizing that Genesis speaks of creation over 6 days is not in contradiction with the understanding that God made everything (in a grander sense).

The clarification in Heb 11:3 is that He made everything from what cannot be seen (His own Power). And the key is that He made everything from nothing in those 6 days. He did not start with stuff already existing before "the Beginning". At the beginning He made everything from nothing.

The text just doesn't say how long it was formless. Be it 10 minutes, be it a fraction of a second, or be it billions of years. It's just not something that the text speaks into.

It does. It says that He made everything "in the beginning" and from the Beginning to the end of the first day was only one morning and one evening.

And trust me, I fully understand how old earth creationists try to force it to say that Genesis describes billions of years of time (it doesn't say any such thing). But likewise, the text also doesn't say, at least not in Genesis, that the earth didn't exist at all before God began creating.

There is a third option here that many people overlook for various reasons. And that third option is that, Genesis is describing God's creative acts. That's what's important. Not so much the question of how short or long before God began, that the earth was present.

Adam was created on the 6th day of the existence of the Earth, and he lived 950 years. He wasn't billions of years old, and he wasn't created billions of years after the heavens and Earth were created. When Adam died, the Earth and the heavens were only 950 years old also.

 

[Job 33:6]

The clarification in Heb 11:3 is that He made everything from what cannot be seen (His own Power). And the key is that He made everything from nothing in those 6 days. He did not start with stuff already existing before "the Beginning". At the beginning He made everything from nothing.

It does. It says that He made everything "in the beginning" and from the Beginning to the end of the first day was only one morning and one evening.

Your statement assumes that Hebrews is a retelling of Genesis.

The topic just isn't so simple. And I'll give an example that is a little easier here.

Paul in Ephesians 4 says the following:

Ephesians 4:8 ESV
[8] Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

Psalm 68:18 ESV
[18] You ascended on high, leading a host of captives in your train and receiving gifts among men, even among the rebellious, that the Lord God may dwell there.

And these texts are similar. It's clear that Paul had the Psalms in mind, even. However, it's not actually correct to say that Paul is attempting to retell the same story. Or that Paul is trying to inform people of what the original narrative is saying. In fact, upon close examination, we see that some of language is adjusted from gifts being received to gifts being given. The context is different, despite the narrative appearing largely the same.

And this is an important topic to understand with respect to hermeneutics. The New Testament is a different collection of books with different authors and different messages. Even if it draws on or sometimes references the OT. These are distinct and separate books. And these books speak to different things.

 

[Job 33:6]

It does. It says that He made everything "in the beginning" and from the Beginning to the end of the first day was only one morning and one evening.

Light, is what is created on the first day. Not the earth. Remember, the earth is created on day 3.