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Featured The Great Commission

Discussion in 'Christian Advice' started by mathinspiration, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. Stephen16:25

    Stephen16:25 New Member

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    The Great Commission for today is 2 Corinthians 5:17-21. We are ambassadors for Christ. The passage in Matthew 28 was for Jesus’ disciples to follo because the Gospel of the Kingdom is all they knew at that point.
     
  2. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    And obviously all they needed to know.
     
  3. Francis Drake

    Francis Drake Returning adventurer.

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    You left out the rest of the commission in Mark.
    15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

    Deliverance from the power of the enemy is an essential part of the gospel.​
     
  4. JosephZ

    JosephZ Well-Known Member

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    Based on Paul's writings, wouldn't you say that mission has already been accomplished?

    “If you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.” (Colossians 1:23)

    If we go further and include verse 18 it says: "they will pick up serpents, "if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

    I don't believe disciples today have been given the authority to do these things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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  5. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Hello Francis Drake, I don't believe that the "Gospel"/"Good News" and the "Great Commission" are the same thing (are they?), though they are closely related, of course. The Great Commission is, "Make Disciples". Going/Baptizing/Witnessing/Preaching/Teaching etc., are all the means we use to achieve that commanded objective.

    As for the passage in Mark 16 about driving out demons, speaking in other tongues, picking up/being bitten by snakes, drinking deadly poison, and the healing ministries, I don't believe that they are part of either the Gospel or the Great Commission, rather (as the text states), the are "signs" (or I believe literally, "attesting miracles" / σημεῖον [semeion]).

    What was the purpose of these "attesting miracles"? Before the NT was available in completed form, men would ask the Apostles and others for proof that the Gospel was of divine origin. To confirm the preaching, God bore witness with signs and wonders and various gifts of the Holy Spirit*.

    The need for these signs is all but gone today since we have the completed Canon .. cf 1 Corinthians 13:8b-10, because if men won’t believe that, then we are told plainly that they wouldn’t believe anyway .. e.g. Luke 16:29-31; Romans 10:17.

    These signs were intended primarily for the Apostolic Age, before the complete Bible was available in written form. Mark did not say that the miracles would continue. The words “to the end of the age” are not found here as they are in Matthew 28:18-20 ~MacDonald, W. (1995). Believer’s Bible Commentary.

    I believe that these signs/attesting miracles are still in use, and that they are being used in the same way and for the same purpose that they always have been, on our mission fields, for instance, and/or whenever/wherever else the Lord deems their use necessary today.

    --David

    Hebrews 2
    1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
    2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
    3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
    4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will
    *.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  6. RisenArt

    RisenArt New Member

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    No offense, but I am sooooo glad this isn't true (Luke 10:19).

    A lot of churches today do not teach people how to move with the Holy Spirit and preach the Gospel. Instead of seeking God, we create theology to justify unbelief. No where in the Bible does God renege all the power he gave his people. Jesus said we'd outdo him. His ministry was a demonstration of how the average Christian should look. He gave us the Holy Spirit so his authority and glory could be multiplied in the Earth. Miracles and signs are still very much happening today and they are done out of a place of faith and compassion.:heart:

    I've spoken the Father's heart into people's lives; healed people on the spot in Jesus name (arthritis, cataracts, injuries, chronic pain). I want to see missing limbs come back and the dead raised. I was healed in one night after 10 years of chronic asthma. I also (accidentally) cast a demon out of someone (funny story). The sick, demon oppressed, lost, brokenhearted are STILL here. Why in the word would God cut off the spiritual tools/weapons we need to minister to them? That's like disarming your soldiers in the middle of a war.

    Too many stop at water baptism of repentance. We don't go all the way, letting Jesus baptize us with the Holy Spirit and Fire (Matthew 3:11). Then we fill in this giant crater with more dead religion and curl up trying to "preserve" our salvation until Jesus returns. We do this instead of systematically destroying the Kingdom of Darkness and taking enemy territory (which is quite fun and exciting). Try standing up to witches, satanists and psychics with no supernatural power. Good luck with that. Those people think the average western Christian is a joke. Stopping at water baptism is like living in the doorway of your home when there is an entire KINGDOM to explore. Jesus wants us to be hungry for more of him and his world.

    If you want to see what the Great Commission looks like, read the book of Acts. The signs and wonders confirm to the people that God is real, the Gospel is true and Jesus loves them. 1st Corinthians 12-14 gets into the technicalities and functions of spiritual gifts. Tongues, prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, healing, miracles, spiritual discernment, etc. all still in full operation.

    I am sorry if I sound tough but this teaching that the gifts have stopped is actually dangerous because a lot of people are left in boredom, brokenness and bondage right in the church. So many on psych meds or stuck in sinful or demonic cycles. Francis Drake's post was on point.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  7. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    Not all pastoral work's exigencies can be mapped out, and so a pastor must beg for power from God and then use his judgment in solving a difficulty. The disciples' report wasn't news to Jesus.
     
  8. RisenArt

    RisenArt New Member

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    Hi Ttalkkugjil,

    I don't really understand your statement. Can you please clarify? Thank you! (Also very cool you are from Korea, God bless you).

    (Also, greetings everyone! This is a new account but I actually used to post here YEARS ago).
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  9. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    Hi RisenArt. I'm actually from Canada. I just currently live and work in South Korea. :)

    Jesus had seen Satan falling from heaven. As a lightning bolt comes down from heaven in glory and disappears on earth, so Satan's power was thrust down out of heaven.
     
  10. RisenArt

    RisenArt New Member

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    Ah, I see! Canada is equally cool. (Pun totally intended lol).

    Yes, that is true. Satan knows his time is short so we must train and be ready. I just wasn't sure what you meant by "exigencies" and "disciples report."
     
  11. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    Ah... sorry, yes, I was speaking based on one scripture or another someone mentioned in this thread.

    As spirits Satan and his angels belong to the creatures above the earth, and so their conquest appears as a fall from heaven. In the casting out of the demons the destruction of Satan's power appeared.
     
  12. RisenArt

    RisenArt New Member

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    I'm not sure what you mean by "their conquest appears as a fall from heaven" but yes, casting demons out is one of the many ways to lay waste to Satan's plans and rescue people. There are entire classes and ministries that teach on this subject.
     
  13. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    Christ had come upon the strong, had bound him. Christ's life was a victory over Satan. And this victory is transmitted to Jesus' disciples.
     
  14. Stone-n-Steel

    Stone-n-Steel Active Member Supporter

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    I am sure you have received many replies about the closing statements made in the four gospels but have you considered what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 5:16-21?

    "Now then we are ambassadors for Christ" (vs. 20). As an ambassador we should be living a life as an example of where we are now "in Christ". It's not about teaching people to observer all the ordinances that Jesus and his disciples followed while He was with them on the earth. It's about being reconciled to God based on the finished work of the cross. Jesus died for you and did not ask you to do any thing to merit the free salvation He provides by believing just that.

    Telling people what Jesus did for them and not what they should do for Him is the ministry of reconciliation.
     
  15. JosephZ

    JosephZ Well-Known Member

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    No offense taken :)

    Who was Jesus speaking to in Luke 10?

    Personally I don't believe any of the instructions Jesus gave to His original disciples in Luke 10 or Matthew 10 were meant for us today. The disciples had a different mission and were reaching out to one particular people group; the lost sheep of Israel.

    Jesus told His disciples "not to acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two tunics, or sandals, or a staff;" and "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans." When Jesus sent out the 72 and said that “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few," he also said "not to take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road."

    In Mark 16 when Jesus says that His disciples "will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues, place their hands on sick people, and they will get well;" He also says "they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all;"

    Are you willing to drink a deadly poison to show that these abilities are available to Jesus' disciples today?

    Are we to only go to the house of Israel with our message today? Should we refuse to greet people we may pass on the street? Should we go into the mission field without means to support ourselves or shoes on our feet? Isn't that also what Jesus told His disciples to do?

    Isn't it possible that these instructions were given to specific disciples at a specific time for a specific purpose? I believe they were.

    I see the word "I" being used when these "miracles" took place. Shouldn't all of the glory belong to God?

    I think every Christian will agree that miracles and spiritual gifts played an essential role in God's plan and we must appreciate and understand that role, but the way I see it, that role is no longer necessary since the purpose that God intended them to be used for has already been fulfilled.

    In the time of the Apostles, the external spiritual gifts were essential in reveling the Word of God, Jesus, to the unbelievers.

    Paul in his writings says that the time will come when the spiritual gifts will no longer be needed.

    "If there are prophecies, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; or knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror, in an enigma, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall fully know just as I am fully known." (I Cor. 13:8-12)

    Let's examine the phrase "That which is perfect" mentioned in the above verses. The Greek word for "perfect" as used here is (telios), and it means to be "complete", "full grown", or "mature". Below are some other verses where this word is used that will help us to understand what "that which is perfect" [TELIOS] is referring to.

    "...until we all may come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown [TELIOS] man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ...." (Ephesians 4:13 shows this to be the perfect man, the temple of God)

    "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man [TELIOS] , to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ." (Ephesians. 4:11-13 tells us that "that which is perfect" was to be the matured Body of Christ, the mature Church.)

    "In whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord," (Here Ephesians 2:21 teaches us that once the Church reaches maturity or "perfection" through the gifts of the Holy Spirit, it was to become God's Temple)

    It was through the gifts of the Spirit that the Church was "being built together into a Dwelling-place of God in the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:22). Peter also referred to "that which is perfect" when he wrote, "...you also as living stones are being built a spiritual house...." (1 Peter 2:25)

    The gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to the Apostles so that the Body of Christ (The Church) would eventually become the perfect (Telios) Temple of God. So now we have to determine when the work of the Holy Spirit in perfecting the Body of Christ was finished so that there would no longer be a need of the spiritual gifts. The answer to this can be found in the book of Hebrews where the final reference to the coming of "that which is perfect" is mentioned.

    "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect [Telios] tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;" (Hebrews 9:11)

    "And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them" (Revelation 21:3)

    This "more perfect Tabernacle" is the one the early Church was no doubt looking forward to arriving:

    "Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him." (John. 14:23)

    "My children, with whom I am again in labor UNTIL Christ is formed in you" (Galatians 4:19)

    It was Paul who was made the first minister of this new and perfect tabernacle when it was revealed to him by the resurrected Christ.

    "Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God (Jesus), that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” (Colossians 1:25-27)

    With the above in mind, as long as the worldly, Old Testament tabernacle/temple of God was still standing, then "that which is perfect", the blood perfected Church/Temple of God, was not able to come. Remember, scripture tells us that the spiritual gifts will cease "when that which is perfect comes" (1 Corinthians 13:10)

    So with everything that has been said up to this point, we are now in a position to answer the question: When in history did that "which is perfect" come?

    It came when the Old Testament worldly temple/tabernacle was "thrown down" just as Jesus prophesied would happen to the temple at worldly Jerusalem:

    "And Jesus said unto them, 'See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down'.” (Matthew 24:2)

    This event was also prophesied in the Book of Daniel:

    "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary (tabernacle). And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.” (Daniel 9:26)

    So we can now say with certainty that in 70 A.D., about 40 years after Jesus' prophecy and centuries after Daniel's, that the old temple and the old covenant world were "thrown down" and God's heavenly Temple was then completely established among men. "That which is perfect" (Telios) had come! It was at that time that the Old Testament way of worship passed away and the spiritual gifts ceased.

    "When He said, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." (Hebrews 8:13)

    "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians. 5:1)

    A simple way to look at the purpose of the spiritual gifts is like when a child first comes into this world he cannot speak or walk well. The child drinks only milk, has to have his diaper changed, etc. As he matures, he no longer lives by the childish acts. So when God's Church was just being born, gifts of prophecy, tongues, etc., were needed to deliver His message. But once His Church became mature (Complete and "Perfect") the gifts that pertained to its birth, were no longer needed and therefore ceased.

    Another way to show this is the period during which a house is being built the builder needs to hammer and saw, etc. Once the house is complete, there is no longer a need for hammering and sawing, so they come to an end, they cease. So in much the same way, the gifts were needed while the Church was being built, but were no longer needed once the Church was complete.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  16. JosephZ

    JosephZ Well-Known Member

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    Do we really want Jesus to baptize us with fire? Let's see what the Bible has to say on this subject.

    “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit." (Matthew 12:33)

    We will know when men and women don't have the fruit of the Spirit, because they will not have God's Spirit. However, those people who do have God's Spirit can be identified by the traits found in the verse below:

    "...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22-23)

    When a person is baptized in the Holy Spirit, they will begin to display these characteristics. To better understand baptism by fire, let's start by looking at what John the Baptist says in the book of Matthew.

    "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:10)

    To repeat what John says, “the axe is laid at the foot of the tree. Every tree which does not bring good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire.” Now let's see what the next verse says.

    "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and fire." (Matthew 3:11)

    To get a proper understanding of what is being said here, we have to go back to the beginning of Matthew chapter 3. There it tells us that there was a multitude of people when John said "he shall baptize you"

    "Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, 'You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?'" (Matthew 3:5-7)

    What he is saying is that ALL of you people out there are going to be baptized. If you are not baptized with the Holy Spirit, then you are going to instead be baptized with fire. It's going to be one or the other, NOT both.

    I will add a little more context of John the Baptist's preaching by including verse 12. I think this will show things even more clearly.

    "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Matthew 3:10-12)

    Now we can clearly see what is being said. The wheat in verse 12 represents the believers, and the chaff are those who chose not to believe. So it will be the chaff, the unbelievers, who will be the ones baptized with fire, not those who choose to believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior.

    Now to make things perfectly clear, let's look back in the Old Testament to the Book of Malachi the fourth chapter.

    "'For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,' says the Lord of hosts, 'so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,' says the Lord of hosts.

    Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.

    Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”
    (Malachi 4:1-6)

    Do you see what John the Baptist was saying? He was repeating what Malachi had prophesied, only in his own words.

    So when he said "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire", fire baptism is clearly not a blessing. That is not something that we never want to experience.

    Now there are a lot of preachers out there who preach about fire baptism, in fact, there are entire ministries built on this misguided translation of scripture. If you attend a church where this is being preached or you hear a pastor saying you need to be baptized by fire; run, don't walk to the nearest exit!

    The Bible is very clear on this subject. It said that you are going to be baptized. You will either be baptized with the Holy Spirit or you will be baptized with fire. John the baptist was talking about judgment day when God was to gather the wicked and consume them with fire when he spoke of this.

    We should all wish to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist, Peter, Jesus, and Paul all taught that we need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Not one of them ever suggested we should be baptized by fire.

    Why would we need any supernatural power to stand up to the evils of this world when we have Jesus?

    I have read the book of Acts. Who were the apostles ministering to in those examples where signs and wonders took place?

    It's important to keep in mind that signs and wonders can be imitated:

    "That is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders," (2 Thessalonians 2:9)

    "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect." (Matthew 24:24)

    I'm always wary of the signs and wonders I see being performed in this day and age.

    I don't expect everyone to agree with what I have written in these last two posts, but this is the way I see things based on what I have read in scripture when it comes to signs, wonders, and fire baptism.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  17. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    John's was a temporary mission. He was the herald, and he was satisfied with this subordinate position. His baptism was preparatory. By inducing people to repent and by administering Baptism, he was readying them for the grasp of Jesus' mission.

    With Jesus' power is combined dignity. So great's he that John doesn't feel worthy even to remove his sandals.

    Jesus' ministry will stand out in contrast. He'll baptize with the Spirit and with fire. To those who accept him as Savior, he'll give the Spirit, with her gifts; but those who'd reject salvation he'll immerse in fire. They've refused to accept the Spirit with her power, and so the power of Jesus' holiness will drown them.
     
  18. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    Jesus said "if you abide in my words... you are my disciples"... as long as we live in the Word, we are not forwarding a religion, but the Gospel, for we are forwarding Jesus words.
     
  19. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    The Bible refers to the Holy Spirit as "He" and "Him", etc. (see below), but you just referred to "Him" as "her"? Why? Does the Bible ever refer to the HS as "her" or "she" OT or New, and if so, where does it do that?

    John 14
    16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
    17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

    26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."

    John 16
    7 “I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
    8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
    9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
    10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
    11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
    12 I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
    13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
    14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you."

    Thanks!

    --David
     
  20. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    Since the Spirit has no gender in the human sense, it is as appropriate to use the female pronoun as it is to use the masculine one. I prefer to use the female pronoun as a gentle reminder that females as much as males are created in the imago Dei.
     
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