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loveabounds said:NO goodbye here, Steve!! Just wanted you to know you are in my prayers!
My brother, how can the catholic church have peace through Christ if they don't believe He did it all for them and they believe they have to take it upon themselves to guarantee their eternity in Heaven??? I believe their outward signs are like those of the Pharisees...all show but no substance which is found in Scriptures...particularly of those regarding Christ, communion and eternal life....to mention just a few!
Steve, if one softens their views on what they know goes against Scripture, wouldn't that be conceeding to the enemy? After all, satan doesn't want the true word of God known. He wants to hide it under pomp and circumstance, to hide it under man's self serving abitions, to hide it at all costs!! Satan loves to use the very faith in the One that defeated him once and knows he's going down once and for all when Christ returns, as favorite weapon to hide truth. I'm sorry, brother....I can not soften my views on anything that goes against Scripture. It's the work of the enemy.
Peace to you!
Let's take another approach. In talking with Protestants, I like to look for common ground. For example, we profess the Nicene Creed. Are you in agreement with the Nicene Creed? Can we start by saying we have that in common?
loveabounds said:Why don't we just address each other as Christian brother and sister and leave out the "catholic", "protestant" references??
I can agree with most of the Nicene Creed. The parts that I disagree with are:
1. It should state that I believe in one CHRISTIAN church.
2. Faiths vary in Baptism. I don't agree with sprinkling water on the head of an infant as Baptism due to the Scriptural references regarding it.
But I like your style, kid!! You're a peacemaker!!
Christian brother and sister--I like that.
Thank you!
Steve
The Bible has a lot to say about this subject, but let's begin in Hebrews 9."It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment" Hebrews 9:27I don't have a great deal of time tonight, but I am curious, what do you believe the "Protestant" view is, and why do you find it 'unsatisfactory'?
Also, do you believe the RC and Protestant views differ in some manner where the redeemed and reprobate are concerned, and if so, how?
Thanks!
--David
I intend this to be the last of some of the things pertaining to God that I'll post, write, and maybe even speak of in general, but anyways;
I had an epiphony of the commonly taught theory of Purgatory amongst Catholics in particular. For thsoe of you who don't know, Catholics teach that there is a place called Puragtaory where everyone gopes after they die, which is basically like a dark room where you kinda sit and wait, during which you have the option to repent and me sanctified in God.
The grave danger in this theory is that people will take advnatage of this, go on sinning all their lives, and think to wait to repent from sin and follow Christ until and when they reach purgatory, which is so wrong because God only gives these opportunitites to repent and follow him while we live on the earth at this present time. After we're dead and gone, we no longer have these opportunities, it'll be too late! So these people who think they can repent in purgatory are just jumping the gun so that they can live however they want all their lives, but when they're dead, they'll be disappointed to find that there is no purgatory, but they will wake on judgement day to be damned to hell. This false theory is blinding and decieving people to think that they're ok for now, and they can go on living their lives as they see fit and they can always wait to repent until later when they reach "purgatory" where they can then be purged of sin and saved then and there.
Why don't we just address each other as Christian brother and sister and leave out the "catholic", "protestant" references??
I can agree with most of the Nicene Creed. The parts that I disagree with are:
1. It should state that I believe in one CHRISTIAN church.
2. Faiths vary in Baptism. I don't agree with sprinkling water on the head of an infant as Baptism due to the Scriptural references regarding it.
But I like your style, kid!! You're a peacemaker!!
bbbbbbb
Ok, lets see if i can finish this before midnight.I'm afraid i'm not allowed to post links yet, so you will have to look up the verses and paragraphs i cite yourself. For Purgatory in the Catechism go to paragraphs 1030, 1031 and 1032.
You ask a lot of good questions. First, on the pain of purgatory; The pain is not to be desired for the sake of the pain, but rather for the sake of what it accomplishes in us. Thus the woman in labor does not rejoice in the agony of it, but rather in the life soon to enter the world. Her pain is not a pain of despair, but rather a pain of hope because it has meaning. So to should we rejoice in our pain because it results in spiritual growth. (Romans 5:3-10, 1 Peter 4:13) However, pain remains painful, and thus worthy to be avoided. We ought to seek out the pain of purgation, not for the sake of the pain, but for the sake of the cleansing(purgation). If this same cleansing may be accomplished through another means, I would consider that alternate means preferable.
(CCC 307, 1521)
It is natural for us to fear suffering, but St. Paul tells us to do the unnatural. He says to rejoice in it for the sake of what its accomplishing. I must confess, i have some timidity myself, but that just reveals a need of further formation and greater faith. Those who say it is not painful are discounting St. Paul's words in 1 Corinthians "If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." (3:11-15) It is to the shame of every Catholic that so many of us do not understand or accept the teachings of the Church.
When compared to eternity, yes, purgatory is but a "brief blip." I'm not sure how assurance of salvation connects to that, but i will strive to answer your question. No, i am not absolutely certain that i will enter heaven. I know that if i have chosen for God and persevere unto the end that i will be saved, but i am still very young in my faith. I may yet fall away. It is even possible that at the core of my being I prefer my sin to God, this would also disqualify me. But, i do not live in constant dread. I have faith, i know that God wants me in heaven. At the same time, it is good to keep Philippians 2:12 in mind.
The issue of deathbed conversions has to do with the nature of temporal punishment which is a lengthy discussion. So i am going to simplify. The explanation given by thispoorman is a common understanding, but it fails to recognize the substantive level of temporal punishment. (see CCC 1472, 1473) The analogy of the broken window is a good one but it has to be explained. When we sin, break the window, God forgives us, He does not have us thrown in prison. However, sin has a second consequence, in addition to meriting eternal damnation it also damages our relationship to God, the window is still broken. Temporal punishment, our allowance, serves to repair that relationship.
However, there is a second half to this analogy. Our allowance will never be able to pay off that window, it simply costs too much. Thankfully, in Christ, we have big brother with a well paying job who says, "That's ok, i'll make up the difference." The "allowance" we contribute is in fact Grace, which comes from God (CCC 1996). The "difference" which Christ makes up flows forth from the Cross. (CCC 2008) Thus, neither aspect originates in us. I recommend reading this entire section from the Catechism, CCC 1987 through 2011.
We come from a very wealthy family, our Father and big brother can repair that window as fast as we can break it, but it will not be eternally repaired until we stop playing with that baseball. John Wayne probably did not go straight to Heaven due to this dualism of purgatory. On the one side his relationship to God would not have needed to be repaired as he had just received the sacraments, however, he would still need to let go if his concupiscence. That is, his lasting desire for sin. He can't enter heaven until he stops playing with the baseball and breaking windows.
To answer your last question, yes, Protestants go to heaven through Purgatory as well. And, No, the "length" of purgatory is dependent on the state of the person's soul, not their denomination.
(1:05 am, I guess that's not too bad.)
Regardless of how catholics explain this mythical place called "purgatory", or the purpose of it, grieves the Lord to know that catholics don't think that the suffering, the death and rising of Jesus Christ, our Messiah, the sacrifical lamb for all who believe..was enough for our justification and purification. Believing that they need to do something to get themselves or someone else out of "purgartory", is blasphemy against our Lord.
I intend this to be the last of some of the things pertaining to God that I'll post, write, and maybe even speak of in general, but anyways;
I had an epiphony of the commonly taught theory of Purgatory amongst Catholics in particular. For thsoe of you who don't know, Catholics teach that there is a place called Puragtaory where everyone gopes after they die, which is basically like a dark room where you kinda sit and wait, during which you have the option to repent and me sanctified in God.
The grave danger in this theory is that people will take advnatage of this, go on sinning all their lives, and think to wait to repent from sin and follow Christ until and when they reach purgatory, which is so wrong because God only gives these opportunitites to repent and follow him while we live on the earth at this present time. After we're dead and gone, we no longer have these opportunities, it'll be too late! So these people who think they can repent in purgatory are just jumping the gun so that they can live however they want all their lives, but when they're dead, they'll be disappointed to find that there is no purgatory, but they will wake on judgement day to be damned to hell. This false theory is blinding and decieving people to think that they're ok for now, and they can go on living their lives as they see fit and they can always wait to repent until later when they reach "purgatory" where they can then be purged of sin and saved then and there.
catholics don't think that the suffering, the death and rising of Jesus Christ, our Messiah, the sacrifical lamb for all who believe..was enough for our justification and purification.
Your comment shows that you have no real understanding of what the Catholic Church means by Purgatory
Rhamiel said:this is also something Catholics can agree with
no second chances.
I intend this to be the last of some of the things pertaining to God that I'll post, write, and maybe even speak of in general, but anyways;
I had an epiphony of the commonly taught theory of Purgatory amongst Catholics in particular. For thsoe of you who don't know, Catholics teach that there is a place called Puragtaory where everyone gopes after they die, which is basically like a dark room where you kinda sit and wait, during which you have the option to repent and me sanctified in God.
The grave danger in this theory is that people will take advnatage of this, go on sinning all their lives, and think to wait to repent from sin and follow Christ until and when they reach purgatory, which is so wrong because God only gives these opportunitites to repent and follow him while we live on the earth at this present time. After we're dead and gone, we no longer have these opportunities, it'll be too late! So these people who think they can repent in purgatory are just jumping the gun so that they can live however they want all their lives, but when they're dead, they'll be disappointed to find that there is no purgatory, but they will wake on judgement day to be damned to hell. This false theory is blinding and decieving people to think that they're ok for now, and they can go on living their lives as they see fit and they can always wait to repent until later when they reach "purgatory" where they can then be purged of sin and saved then and there.
I don't mean to offend, but if you are trying to bring down catholic theology you must at least understand what your trying to bring down! Your explaniantion of purgatory is very off based and is completely untrue. purgatory is a place of suffering, but if your are in purgatory YOUR ARE ALREADY SAVED, its not a place where the unrighteous go after death to earn salvation, its a place of cleansing before you reach the kingdom of god. SO NO! if Catholics teach if you die with "Mortal sin" on you, and you do not have the desire to repent, you will be damned(obv thats gods choice not ours, its just our theology). Purgatory is a place of final cleansing before you enter the kingdom of heaven, since we know from scripture that we must be clean to enter the kingdom of god, If there was no purgatory ALOT of us would be going to hell and not heaven, purgatory was created by gods grace,.
1 Cor. 3:15 if any mans work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
So, before you try and claim that Catholics have a "false" teaching called purgatory where people are encouraged to sin and they can be saved in "purgatory", try and learn the actual dogma of purgatory, no man can achieve salvation after death, it is achieved apon death, you must die in a state of grace to achieve eternal life, Purgatory is a place to "clean" you before you enter the kingdom of god.
The teaching of "once saved, always saved"(created in the 1800's) ENCOURAGES people to sin, people are liked "well im saved so I can have pre-martial sex, I can get an abortion because I am saved" well the people who take advantage of this teaching will be sorry, so no purgatory is not leading people to sin, infact its a place of SUFFERING, if anything it teachings people to not sin and be perfect in this life so we can avoid it. "Once saved, always saved" teaches what you claim purgatory teaches.
So please, before you create a Anti-Catholic post, understand what we believe Purgatory to actually be.
God bless
Raised a Catholic, I was taught that purgatory is where we go if we have sin on our souls after death. We were told that those still living pray for us, which will get us into heaven and then once we are in heaven, we turn around and pray for those who prayed for us.
It's a place of purgation--purging--which in the traditional Catholic way of explaining it is just like hell but doesn't last forever. There is an effort these days by both Catholics and Protestants sympathetic to Roman Catholicism to make Purgatory seem less forbidding. They tend to describe it as more of a cleansing experience--which is not so incorrect if we think that burning something up is a way of keeping disease from spreading, etc.--but within a few years it will go the way of Limbo and simply die a quiet death.By your definition of purgatory, it's a cleansing place for those who are saved. Is that correct? If so....being saved, we have already been cleansed by the perfect blood of Jesus Christ. What kind of "cleansing" are you referring to?
This is correct, except that we should add that you go there for sins already forgiven. This is believed necessary as a matter of justice; you need to suffer for having committed them in the first place although not forever.
It's a place of purgation--purging--which in the traditional Catholic way of explaining it is just like hell but doesn't last forever. There is an effort these days by both Catholics and Protestants sympathetic to Roman Catholicism to make Purgatory seem less forbidding. They tend to describe it as more of a cleansing experience--which is not so incorrect if we think that burning something up is a way of keeping disease from spreading, etc.--but within a few years it will go the way of Limbo and simply die a quiet death.
I will NEVER understand what it was that Christ did NOT do good enough, that catholics believe there is something needs to be added, that there is something THEY need to do to get someone or themselves into heaven.
If that were the case, if there was something WE could do...there would be no need for Jesus in the first place.
Sad. Still praying that they see truth.
Raised a Catholic, I was taught that purgatory is where we go if we have sin on our souls after death. We were told that those still living pray for us, which will get us into heaven and then once we are in heaven, we turn around and pray for those who prayed for us.
By your definition of purgatory, it's a cleansing place for those who are saved. Is that correct? If so....being saved, we have already been cleansed by the perfect blood of Jesus Christ. What kind of "cleansing" are you referring to?
I will NEVER understand what it was that Christ did NOT do good enough, that catholics believe there is something needs to be added, that there is something THEY need to do to get someone or themselves into heaven.By this statement you showed your lack of knowledge in Catholic teachings, Christ did exactly what he came down to do, He opened the gates of Heaven and founded his church. It's very clear the bible says that if you follow Christ you have eternal life, and Catholics don't reject this teaching, its our understanding of following Christ that differs. Christ makes it clear in "Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved" this means that just because you have faith in the lord, and believe him to be the messiah, doesn't mean you will be saved. James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." These and many other verses in the bible show that to be saved you must have faith, but to have faith you must actually show it by abiding the commandmentsts, being a good person, living the life of the lord, not just trusting your saved and sinning, living the christian life of abiding the commandments, Jesus' death at the cross opens the gates of heaven! they don't guarantee all who believe in him salvation, for even the devil believes in Jesus.
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten. This shows that one can be saved, and lose salvation, so jesus didn't come to guarantee all who believe salvation, but the ones who stay faithful and live by the commandments.
John 5:16-17: "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin which is not mortal."
This piece of scripture shows how there is a difference is sin and how some sins are more serious than others(if your assumption of jesus' death was correct, why would there be different levels of sin if all who trust in the lord are already forgiven?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
This right here is a piece of scripture which shows that wrongdoers won't inherit the kingdom of god, but if there already saved through faith why won't these people inherit the kingdom of god? its simple because they are committing mortal sin.
"Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time." Didache, 16 (A.D. 90)
Baptists think, wait what? Why is a first century christian sayign that your faith will not profit you if your not perfect? this is against what Jesus did is it not?
No, this is not against what Jesus' death did for humanity, it shows that faith alone in Jesus is not good enough, that one must try to live the life he lived, to STRIVE for perfection, not to just say "okay i am saved now, don't have to worry about sinning".
All in all, NO Catholics don't believe anything has to be added to the death of Christ, we KNOW he died for us, but we also UNDERSTAND why he died for us, to open the kingdom of heaven, to establish his church, not to be an easy out to eternal life to humanity(like many think) but to teach the world to live a faithful, work-filled live, to obey his commandments and do his will, JESUS died for us to strive for Perfection, and try to be perfect, not for us "Be a sinner and sin boldly"- Martin Luther but for us to repent from our hiccups, and try and be perfect, Christ didn't lead a life of sin, so why should we?
God bless
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