The Grave Danger of the Catholic-Based "Purgatory" Theory!

[St_Worm2]

Would you provide any scriptural proof ?
I don't believe in Purgatory, but still I find that the standard Protestant view (which is identical with your position here) is not really satisfactory.

The Bible has a lot to say about this subject, but let's begin in Hebrews 9.

"It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment" Hebrews 9:27
​

I don't have a great deal of time tonight, but I am curious, what do you believe the "Protestant" view is, and why do you find it 'unsatisfactory'?

Also, do you believe the RC and Protestant views differ in some manner where the redeemed and reprobate are concerned, and if so, how?


Thanks!

--David

 

[Basil the Great]

Would you provide any scriptural proof ?
I don't believe in Purgatory, but still I find that the standard Protestant view (which is identical with your position here) is not really satisfactory.

I agree with you, RadicalDissenter. I find both the Catholic Purgatory and the standard Protestant view of the afterlife to be problematical. Hence, even though I am not Orthodox, I lean towards the Eastern Orthodox doctrine of an undefined intermediate state and the possibility of Toll Houses.

 

[thispoorman]

From someone who tried the Catholic way for ten years, here goes:

The doctrine of Purgatory is tied up with Catholic theology on sin, confession, and reparation.

First, there's the distinction between venial and mortal sin. Venial sin is your everyday, garden-variety sin that's not about anything serious, or is done out of weakness or passion (say, giving another driver the ol' one-finger salute when you're cut off). No real worries, mate: prayer, good works, almsgiving and participation in Mass cleans those light sins right off. You're encourged, strongly, but not required, to confess venial sins.

Mortal sin is the big one, though. For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must be fulfilled: a) the sin must involve a "grave matter" (e.g. the Ten Commandments, or anything considered a felony in your culture, OR something that you CONSIDER to be a grave matter, even if it isn't objectively); b) there must be "sufficient reflection" (that is, you think back and forth about whether you're going to do it, or not, and why, and what ramifications there might be); and c) there must be "full consent of the will" (that is, "I know that this is seriously wrong, and will kill the life of grace in my soul, but I'm going to do it anyway, because I want to").

Once you've gone that far, you've committed "moral suicide" and your soul is dead. You're de facto excommunicated and cannot receive the Eucharist. You're on yer way to hell in a handbasket. So what do you do? You whip up as much sincere contrition as you can muster and get yourself to Confession (or Reconciliation, for post-Vatican II types). You confess your sin to the priest; he makes the judicial decision as to whether you're truly contrite; and if so, he pronounces absolution - your sin is forgiven, and the eternal punishment due to it (hell) is remitted.

HOWEVER, there is still the matter of temporal punishment. The traditional parable to explain it goes like this: Johnny is playing baseball and breaks Mr. Smith's window. Johnny is sorry and goes to Mr. Smith and confesses to breaking the window. Mr. Smith says, "Thank you, Johnny; you're a fine young man; I believe you're truly sorry, and we're still friends. Now, about that broken window - how much allowance do you get each week...?"

God in his mercy remits the eternal punishment due to confessed and forgiven mortal sin, but you still have the responsibility (and privelege) of doing something to make reparation to God for the dishonor shown him. You still have to pay for the broken window. Usually in modern Catholicism, this amounts to a certain number of prayers the priest will have you say ("five 'Our Fathers', five 'Hail Marys', and five 'Glory Be...s'").
In the early church, penance was much more rigorous, and could involve many years of prayer and fasting before one could be readmitted to the Eucharist. That's where indulgences come in; saying the prayers and or doing the works required for a "three years indulgence" doesn't mean that you get three years knocked off your time in Purgatory; it means that the spiritual value of three years of hard penance in the early church are added to your spiritual "account".

SO...(whew!), you've confessed your mortal sin, been forgiven, and received your penance. But let's say you decide NOT to say your penance right there in the church after Confession, because you're late for a party, so you'll do it tomorrow, and you run out of the church and a piano falls on you...why not? Here's the problem: you won't go to hell, because your eternal punishment was remitted in Confession - but you can't go straight to Heaven, either, because you haven't satisfied your debt of temporal punishment.

Hence Purgatory. It hurts like hell, but it doesn't last forever. Your few prayers of penance, said in this life for the love of God and his honor, would have adequately cleansed you, but since you didn't "pay" in this life, you've got to suffer a gazillion times more punishment in Purgatory to be ready for Heaven. (Additionally, suffering in Purgatory will only purify what love of God you may already have; suffering in this life also helps to grow your love for God). Those in Purgatory know that they are suffering for the love of God; therefore, they are, in a sense, happy that they are making reparation to God's honor and are destined for Heaven.

To sum up: in Catholic thinking, Jesus saves from hell; the rest is prety much up to you, either here or in Purgatory.

 

[SQLservant]

This temporal punishment is due to the fact that you did not have perfect contrition to begin with, though, correct? If you had you wouldn't have been assigned the penance. Is my understanding correct?

 

[steve_bakr]

This temporal punishment is due to the fact that you did not have perfect contrition to begin with, though, correct? If you had you wouldn't have been assigned the penance. Is my understanding correct?

Perfect contrition is a requirement for absolution. It means you are truly sorry for your sins and.you resolve to do better. After confession, you express your contrition and you then receive absolution. To my knowledge, you are always given a penance. When a Catholic.dies without having confessed or without having done penance--unless it is a mortal sin (a serious sin which is committed with full awareness of all its consequences by your own free will)--you go to an intermmediate state of existence for complete purification.

 

[thispoorman]

This temporal punishment is due to the fact that you did not have perfect contrition to begin with, though, correct? If you had you wouldn't have been assigned the penance. Is my understanding correct?

Sorry, but nope. Temporal punishment is always annexed to sin, whether you impose it on yourself in the case of venial sin, or it's imposed on you by the priest after confession. It seems I've got to get into perfect and imperfect contrition as well! Imperfect contrition (basically, sorrow over sin because if its inherent ugliness, or from fear of hell), is enough for absolution and penance, with subsequent readmittance to Communion. Perfect contrition for mortal sin, on the other hand (defined as sorrow over sin for the pure love of God, and because you have offended his holiness, majesty and mercy), immediately remits eternal punishment, but does not remove the obligation to confess the mortal sin and do penance before returning to Communion. If you don't, guess what - you've just committed another mortal sin!

 

[ghym]

bbbbbbb
Ok, lets see if i can finish this before midnight. I'm afraid i'm not allowed to post links yet, so you will have to look up the verses and paragraphs i cite yourself. For Purgatory in the Catechism go to paragraphs 1030, 1031 and 1032.

You ask a lot of good questions. First, on the pain of purgatory; The pain is not to be desired for the sake of the pain, but rather for the sake of what it accomplishes in us. Thus the woman in labor does not rejoice in the agony of it, but rather in the life soon to enter the world. Her pain is not a pain of despair, but rather a pain of hope because it has meaning. So to should we rejoice in our pain because it results in spiritual growth. (Romans 5:3-10, 1 Peter 4:13) However, pain remains painful, and thus worthy to be avoided. We ought to seek out the pain of purgation, not for the sake of the pain, but for the sake of the cleansing(purgation). If this same cleansing may be accomplished through another means, I would consider that alternate means preferable.
(CCC 307, 1521)
It is natural for us to fear suffering, but St. Paul tells us to do the unnatural. He says to rejoice in it for the sake of what its accomplishing. I must confess, i have some timidity myself, but that just reveals a need of further formation and greater faith. Those who say it is not painful are discounting St. Paul's words in 1 Corinthians "If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." (3:11-15) It is to the shame of every Catholic that so many of us do not understand or accept the teachings of the Church.

When compared to eternity, yes, purgatory is but a "brief blip." I'm not sure how assurance of salvation connects to that, but i will strive to answer your question. No, i am not absolutely certain that i will enter heaven. I know that if i have chosen for God and persevere unto the end that i will be saved, but i am still very young in my faith. I may yet fall away. It is even possible that at the core of my being I prefer my sin to God, this would also disqualify me. But, i do not live in constant dread. I have faith, i know that God wants me in heaven. At the same time, it is good to keep Philippians 2:12 in mind.

The issue of deathbed conversions has to do with the nature of temporal punishment which is a lengthy discussion. So i am going to simplify. The explanation given by thispoorman is a common understanding, but it fails to recognize the substantive level of temporal punishment. (see CCC 1472, 1473) The analogy of the broken window is a good one but it has to be explained. When we sin, break the window, God forgives us, He does not have us thrown in prison. However, sin has a second consequence, in addition to meriting eternal damnation it also damages our relationship to God, the window is still broken. Temporal punishment, our allowance, serves to repair that relationship.
However, there is a second half to this analogy. Our allowance will never be able to pay off that window, it simply costs too much. Thankfully, in Christ, we have big brother with a well paying job who says, "That's ok, i'll make up the difference." The "allowance" we contribute is in fact Grace, which comes from God (CCC 1996). The "difference" which Christ makes up flows forth from the Cross. (CCC 2008) Thus, neither aspect originates in us. I recommend reading this entire section from the Catechism, CCC 1987 through 2011.
We come from a very wealthy family, our Father and big brother can repair that window as fast as we can break it, but it will not be eternally repaired until we stop playing with that baseball. John Wayne probably did not go straight to Heaven due to this dualism of purgatory. On the one side his relationship to God would not have needed to be repaired as he had just received the sacraments, however, he would still need to let go if his concupiscence. That is, his lasting desire for sin. He can't enter heaven until he stops playing with the baseball and breaking windows.

To answer your last question, yes, Protestants go to heaven through Purgatory as well. And, No, the "length" of purgatory is dependent on the state of the person's soul, not their denomination.

(1:05 am, I guess that's not too bad.)

 

[thispoorman]

Ghym is quite correct; thanks for the modification!

 

[SQLservant]

That is a beautiful comparison. I'm still exploring and trying to understand some teachings, but Purgatory is not a problem for me anymore.

Prayer to the saints, I'm still not so sure about. I've done it now and then (e.g., "St. Jude, pray for me"), but I always find myself uncertain over whether that was right or not, and asking that God would forgive me if I have sinned against him in so doing. The theology makes sense on paper, and the assumption that they can hear us is fair enough to draw, but I still don't quite feel right doing it.

 

[ghym]

Thispoorman, thank you!

SQLservant,
Since this is a thread on purgatory, i'm not going to give a lengthy response. Just know, i had similar hang ups when i became Catholic. Mine was about veneration of Mary and her eternal virginity. Yours, concerning prayer to the saints, is very common. I would recommend starting with friends or family members who have passed on before you. You don't even need to ask them for anything. Just say hi and tell them they are missed.

 

[loveabounds]

Not a RC and I do not believe in the doctrine of Purgatory, but I do know that the RCC does not teach that ALL go to Purgatory. Rather they say, only those who die in Christ (but are still somehow in need of additional purification) can go to Purgatory, not the reprobate. Here, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory​

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.​

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604​

Regardless of how catholics explain this mythical place called "purgatory", or the purpose of it, grieves the Lord to know that catholics don't think that the suffering, the death and rising of Jesus Christ, our Messiah, the sacrifical lamb for all who believe..was enough for our justification and purification. Believing that they need to do something to get themselves or someone else out of "purgartory", is blasphemy against our Lord.

 

[steve_bakr]

Regardless of how catholics explain this mythical place called "purgatory", or the purpose of it, grieves the Lord to know that catholics don't think that the suffering, the death and rising of Jesus Christ, our Messiah, the sacrifical lamb for all who believe..was enough for our justification and purification. Believing that they need to do something to get themselves or someone else out of "purgartory", is blasphemy against our Lord.

I'm sorry that you finished your post with such strong language. You see, Catholicism teaches that when the faithful commit sin and then repent again, that person can obtain forgiveness that saves them from eternal punishment. But there still remain consequences to sin called temporal punishment, some of which takes place in an intermmediate state called purgatory. Think of it like this. Say you rob a bank. Afterwards, you feel guilty enough to return the money and confess to the crime. That is well and good, but you still may have to spend some time in jail for what you did. Hopefully, it is at a reduced sentence because you returned the money and you will get time off for good behavior. That is a poor comparison, but the moral is that, although you have salvation, you cannot sin with impunity.

 

[loveabounds]

I'm sorry that you finished your post with such strong language. You see, Catholicism teaches that when the faithful commit sin and then repent again, that person can obtain forgiveness that saves them from eternal punishment. But there still remain consequences to sin called temporal punishment, some of which takes place in an intermmediate state called purgatory. Think of it like this. Say you rob a bank. Afterwards, you feel guilty enough to return the money and confess to the crime. That is well and good, but you still may have to spend some time in jail for what you did. Hopefully, it is at a reduced sentence because you returned the money and you will get time off for good behavior. That is a poor comparison, but the moral is that, although you have salvation, you cannot sin with impunity.

I agree with you. That is a poor comparison. And it's a poor outlook on what Christ did for us as well.

There is nothing Scriptural about the nonesense you have just stated. Furthermore, it is a slap to the face of Christ to even entertain the thought that His entire purpose for coming down from Heaven to Earth, being fully God and fully human, to bear our sins, suffer, die and rising again to atone for our sins, paying the FULL PRICE OF OUR SINS, giving us eternal life....was not good enough!!!!

Romans 5:9-10 states: "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"

We are justified, been reconciled through the blood of Christ!!! He paid the full price for our sins! Nothing else is needed!!!

When one believes in a place not even mentioned in the Holy Word, where people go when they die until enough prayers are said for them to earn their passage into Heaven...when one believes they are on the same playing field with Jesus Christ, to get someone into God's Kingdom....it IS blasphemous!!

The catholic church uses guilt as a way of controlling people. Much of it has to do with money. When Constantine ruled Christianity as the nation's religion, the church became financially corrupt, politically corrupt and theologically corrupt. It remained this way right into the 21 century.

My dear brother, I urge you to step away from the brain washing you have received and pray, asking the Holy Spirit to guide you and then open up the only true word of God that is only found in the Scriptures and read them, study them, meditate on them. Allow the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the truth of what Jesus Christ did for you.

I pray that all who have been deceived by the lies of faiths, see the truth, see the glory and power of our Lord.

Side note: I know full well what Catholicism teaches. I was born and raised into that faith (or therelackof).

 

[steve_bakr]

I'm sorry that you feel this way about the Catholic faith.

 

[loveabounds]

I'm sorry that you feel this way about the Catholic faith.

And I am sorry that you don't.

 

[loveabounds]

Steve,

You have nothing to say about the truth of the Scripture that I provided? The only thing you can do is to feel "sorry" for me that I don't share your trust in the catholic church???

I pray that you are thinking on the truth of what Christ really did, instead of just standing in defense of a religion rather than on the side of truth. God does not want us deceived. Every verse that Jesus spoke that was talking about the last days started with "do not be deceived". There is a reason for that. PLEASE, I urge you to think upon it.

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve,

You have nothing to say about the truth of the Scripture that I provided? The only thing you can do is to feel "sorry" for me that I don't share your trust in the catholic church???

I pray that you are thinking on the truth of what Christ really did, instead of just standing in defense of a religion rather than on the side of truth. God does not want us deceived. Every verse that Jesus spoke that was talking about the last days started with "do not be deceived". There is a reason for that. PLEASE, I urge you to think upon it.

I believe we are reconciled with God through the blood of Christ, as the Scripture says, and I am not a very good apologist for the Catholic Church regarding doctrines such as purgatory. In that regard, I trust God and the teaching of the Church.

I have found a peace and satisfaction in the Catholic Church. I love the Liturgy and the Eucharist. The Church's spirituality runs deep. I know that sometimes former Catholics become anti-Catholics, and I am sorry for that.

 

[loveabounds]

I believe we are reconciled with God through the blood of Christ, as the Scripture says, and I am not a very good apologist for the Catholic Church regarding doctrines such as purgatory. In that regard, I trust God and the teaching of the Church.

I have found a peace and satisfaction in the Catholic Church. I love the Liturgy and the Eucharist. The Church's spirituality runs deep. I know that sometimes former Catholics become anti-Catholics, and I am sorry for that.

Steve,

Why don't you trust the teachings of Scripture? Why do you place priority and trust in man, rather than the Son of man?

If you believe your reconciliation, justification and sanctification was complete through the blood of Christ, you are following a teaching of a church that contradicts it.

I am not "anti-Catholic". I am anti-satan. I am pro God, pro Scriptures...His Holy Word. I will freely and gladly die defending God's word. I don't care what faith teaches contradiction of Scriptures, I will challenge all of them, trying to bring them truth which ONLY comes from the word of God through Scriptures. Jesus said "I am the way, the TRUTH and the light...", no other truth exists except through Him.

Your peace should come from your personal relationship with Christ...not the rituals of a church. I pray that one day you find the peace that truly IS peace through Christ and Christ alone.

God Bless you Steve...you will forever be in my prayers.

 

[steve_bakr]

Steve,

Why don't you trust the teachings of Scripture? Why do you place priority and trust in man, rather than the Son of man?

If you believe your reconciliation, justification and sanctification was complete through the blood of Christ, you are following a teaching of a church that contradicts it.

I am not "anti-Catholic". I am anti-satan. I am pro God, pro Scriptures...His Holy Word. I will freely and gladly die defending God's word. I don't care what faith teaches contradiction of Scriptures, I will challenge all of them, trying to bring them truth which ONLY comes from the word of God through Scriptures. Jesus said "I am the way, the TRUTH and the light...", no other truth exists except through Him.

Your peace should come from your personal relationship with Christ...not the rituals of a church. I pray that one day you find the peace that truly IS peace through Christ and Christ alone.

God Bless you Steve...you will forever be in my prayers.

Loveabounds,

That sounds like a farewell, but anyway I appreciate your concern and your prayers, and I appreciate your devotion to the Scriptures. I was a Protestant for many years and my wife still is, so I think I know where you are coming from.

But I think your view of the Catholic Church is an overreaction. I believe the Catholic Church has more to do with the Scriptures than you think, and I believe our viewpoints are closer than you think.

It is all about having a relationship to Jesus Christ, right. Although Jesus Christ is always present with us, his presence is also embodied in the Mass; first through the Liturgy of the Word, wherein is read passages from Scripture culminating in the Gospel, but also the Liturgy of the Eucharist, wherein is contained the full presence of Christ.

I find that the rites of the Church are outward signs of the inward grace of Jesus Christ. Since we live in bodies, it is good to have these signs present to us, I believe. If you feel that you don't need them, I don't judge you for that. But I do hope you can see your way to soften your views on the Catholic Church.

May the Lord bless you also,
Steve

 

[loveabounds]

Loveabounds,

That sounds like a farewell, but anyway I appreciate your concern and your prayers, and I appreciate your devotion to the Scriptures. I was a Protestant for many years and my wife still is, so I think I know where you are coming from.

But I think your view of the Catholic Church is an overreaction. I believe the Catholic Church has more to do with the Scriptures than you think, and I believe our viewpoints are closer than you think.

It is all about having a relationship to Jesus Christ, right. Although Jesus Christ is always present with us, his presence is also embodied in the Mass; first through the Liturgy of the Word, wherein is read passages from Scripture culminating in the Gospel, but also the Liturgy of the Eucharist, wherein is contained the full presence of Christ.

I find that the rites of the Church are outward signs of the inward grace of Jesus Christ. Since we live in bodies, it is good to have these signs present to us, I believe. If you feel that you don't need them, I don't judge you for that. But I do hope you can see your way to soften your views on the Catholic Church.

May the Lord bless you also,
Steve

NO goodbye here, Steve!! Just wanted you to know you are in my prayers!

My brother, how can the catholic church have peace through Christ if they don't believe He did it all for them and they believe they have to take it upon themselves to guarantee their eternity in Heaven??? I believe their outward signs are like those of the Pharisees...all show but no substance which is found in Scriptures...particularly of those regarding Christ, communion and eternal life....to mention just a few!

Steve, if one softens their views on what they know goes against Scripture, wouldn't that be conceeding to the enemy? After all, satan doesn't want the true word of God known. He wants to hide it under pomp and circumstance, to hide it under man's self serving abitions, to hide it at all costs!! Satan loves to use the very faith in the One that defeated him once and knows he's going down once and for all when Christ returns, as favorite weapon to hide truth. I'm sorry, brother....I can not soften my views on anything that goes against Scripture. It's the work of the enemy.

Peace to you!