The Gottesdienst Crowd

JM

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As I work I listen to podcasts and the Gottesdienst Crowd is one of my fav's. They did a book talk on Christian Nationalism by Wolfe worth looking at.


Yours in the Lord,

jm
 

J_B_

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As I work I listen to podcasts and the Gottesdienst Crowd is one of my fav's. They did a book talk on Christian Nationalism by Wolfe worth looking at.


Yours in the Lord,

jm
Christian Nationalism is an oxymoron. More than that, it's a gross misunderstanding of Luther's ideas on the Two Kingdoms.

During my history program I studied the path taken by the Lutheran church in Germany during the Nazi era, and it is a tragic story - a warning for present day right-leaning, nationalist tendencies among conservative Lutherans.
 
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JM

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Christian Nationalism is an oxymoron. More than that, it's a gross misunderstanding of Luther's ideas on the Two Kingdoms.

During my history program I studied the path taken by the Lutheran church in Germany during the Nazi era, and it is a tragic story - a warning for present day right-leaning, nationalist tendencies among conservative Lutherans.
Do you have a comment about the podcast or episode? or did you just stop by to remind us of "my history program" studies and then give us your opinion about Christian Nationalism?

^_^

I mean, did you even listen to it?
 
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J_B_

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I mean, did you even listen to it?

I did. The interviewer asked him multiple times how he defined Christian Nationalism and all he did was talk in circles. At one point he essentially admitted he was wandering aimlessly and failing to define what Christian Nationalism is. He finally settled down and said his definition was a group of people who consider themselves Christian and seek to rule via a God-ordained civil law. I'm not fond of that definition, but at least he eventually got there. By that definition the U.S. is not a Christian nation. So ... then what?
 
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JM

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Another good one.

"19th Century Christianity saw a revival in both confessional and liturgical writings and polemics. In this episode, James Lee takes us through some of the major players and themes of the confessional revival and what we can learn from them."

 
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JM

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I did. The interviewer asked him multiple times how he defined Christian Nationalism and all he did was talk in circles. At one point he essentially admitted he was wandering aimlessly and failing to define what Christian Nationalism is. He finally settled down and said his definition was a group of people who consider themselves Christian and seek to rule via a God-ordained civil law. I'm not fond of that definition, but at least he eventually got there. By that definition the U.S. is not a Christian nation. So ... then what?
Aye, didn't see the "so what then."


I often hear it repeated, "we are Lutheran but not followers of Luther. He got some things wrong."

Two Kingdom "theory" is a theory.

Yours in the Lord

jm
 
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JM

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its very easy for non-Lutherans to fall into heresy like theonomy , works based assurance in Calvinism, works based theosis in EO etc
Which Lutheran Synods declared theonomy a heresy?
 
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JM

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Excellent sermon on the Two Kingdoms and deals how Christians should be nationalists.

1701357452421.png



Pastor Poppe Sermons • Easter 6. 1 Timothy 2:1-6. "Two Kingdoms" • Podcast Addict

Good Shepherd Lutheran Church. Lincoln, Nebraska. May 14, 2023. Rev. Clint K Poppe
podcastaddict.com
podcastaddict.com
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I apologize as I did not listen to this interview, but I have a few thoughts....

Correct me, but "Christian Nationalism", based on what I am reading here sounds like a striving for theocracy. The thought that Christian Nationalism can, or should even be a thing in countries where governments allow the promotion of aboriginal pagan spiritualism, secular humanism and consumerism while leaving most Christians afraid to express/confess their faith in public.

I see this changing as we become more and more of a minority because as the Church declines, we are starting to be seen as much less of a threat.

Here in Canada the Rainbow flag in a lot of places seems to be held as highly as our national flag, and in some locations it is all one sees.

The Christian nationalism of the 50s and 60s allowed the Church to be blind-sided... And here we are.
 
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JM

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I apologize as I did not listen to this interview, but I have a few thoughts....

Correct me, but "Christian Nationalism", based on what I am reading here sounds like a striving for theocracy. The thought that Christian Nationalism can, or should even be a thing in countries where governments allow the promotion of aboriginal pagan spiritualism, secular humanism and consumerism while leaving most Christians afraid to express/confess their faith in public.

I see this changing as we become more and more of a minority because as the Church declines, we are starting to be seen as much less of a threat.

Here in Canada the Rainbow flag in a lot of places seems to be held as highly as our national flag, and in some locations it is all one sees.

The Christian nationalism of the 50s and 60s allowed the Church to be blind-sided... And here we are.
I think the more Christianity retreats from the public square the more persecution will come. For example Trudeau set aside 800 grand to investigate churches to make sure the Alphabet Mafia isnt offended by what is being taught. This could not have happened 20 years ago. If Christianity isn't guiding our leaders paganism will and is, which is why the 800 grand was set aside. Ethics in Canada are pagan with CSIS giving agents immunity to break the law. There is no objective standard of right or wrong without God, the Bible and Christianity.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I think the more Christianity retreats from the public square the more persecution will come. For example Trudeau set aside 800 grand to investigate churches to make sure the Alphabet Mafia isnt offended by what is being taught. This could not have happened 20 years ago. If Christianity isn't guiding our leaders paganism will and is, which is why the 800 grand was set aside. Ethics in Canada are pagan with CSIS giving agents immunity to break the law. There is no objective standard of right or wrong without God, the Bible and Christianity.
Just remember that when the persecution of Rome was at it's apex and the Church was still in it's infancy, the Church did have to retreat underground in order to grow and flourish. Our governments hostility is fast approaching that of ancient Rome towards Christians.
 
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JM

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Just remember that when the persecution of rom was at it's apex and the Church was still in it's infancy, the Church did have to retreat underground in order to brow and flourish. Our governments hostility is fast approaching that of ancient Rome towards Christians.
Which one?

Benedict Option or the Boniface Option?
 
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Shane R

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I think the more Christianity retreats from the public square the more persecution will come. For example Trudeau set aside 800 grand to investigate churches to make sure the Alphabet Mafia isnt offended by what is being taught. This could not have happened 20 years ago. If Christianity isn't guiding our leaders paganism will and is, which is why the 800 grand was set aside. Ethics in Canada are pagan with CSIS giving agents immunity to break the law. There is no objective standard of right or wrong without God, the Bible and Christianity.
The church I've been helping out has a long running radio show. I was feeling my oats maybe a little too much one Sunday a couple of months ago and made a couple of comments about the homosexuals preying on kids. The congregational president just about soiled himself. His reaction was: Uhh, did that just go out to the radio station? After the service this old dame came up to me and had a meltdown. Turned out her son is gay. A couple of the others discreetly told me they agreed with my comments. I did not say anything that contradicted the official positions of the North American Lutheran Church. But some of the congregations still have quite a bit of ELCA in their DNA.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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The church I've been helping out has a long running radio show. I was feeling my oats maybe a little too much one Sunday a couple of months ago and made a couple of comments about the homosexuals preying on kids. The congregational president just about soiled himself. His reaction was: Uhh, did that just go out to the radio station? After the service this old dame came up to me and had a meltdown. Turned out her son is gay. A couple of the others discreetly told me they agreed with my comments. I did not say anything that contradicted the official positions of the North American Lutheran Church. But some of the congregations still have quite a bit of ELCA in their DNA.
How do they react when these sins are condemned in the appointed scripture readings? This issue is admonished more than once every Church year. Hard to avoid it.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I could never Pastor I'm too blunt. Too straight forward and hate politics. I can speak freely from the pew but, this congregation is my last stop, if sin is condoned I'll leave.
While Church has always been full of broken people, the tolerant society has made most more self centered and entitled, and as a result less tolerant of others who hold traditional values. You can not fix the Church from the outside. Luther was blunt too and as such became the nemesis of the Catholic Church. Recent events there should make us rethink our recent approach to ecumenical dialogue with them. It is certainly not the Church of Pope Benedict any longer.
 
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The Liturgist

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While Church has always been full of broken people, the tolerant society has made most more self centered and entitled, and as a result less tolerant of others who hold traditional values. You can not fix the Church from the outside. Luther was blunt too and as such became the nemesis of the Catholic Church. Recent events there should make us rethink our recent approach to ecumenical dialogue with them. It is certainly not the Church of Pope Benedict any longer.

Indeed, blunt preaching is entirely acceptable. I recall a very blunt sermon by the President of the LCMS in 2012 on the difference between the LCMS and the UCC, which i admired. I have to confess I feel very sorry for traditional Catholics who are now being persecuted for their preference for the traditional liturgy and their belief systems. The confessional Lutheran Churches are clearly more Catholic than the Roman church, in that nearly every RCC parish has been at least partially wreckovated with an ugly free-standing altar in front of the high altar (which is not even required by the Novus Ordo Missae, which can actually be celebrated ad orientem).

How do they react when these sins are condemned in the appointed scripture readings? This issue is admonished more than once every Church year. Hard to avoid it.

Are we sure those are in the NALC lectionary? I mean, I hope they are, but there is quite a lot of important material missing from the Revised Common Lectionary, which the ELCA uses and which I think was also being used by the LBW (the controversial Green Book) and by the NALC.

By the way @Shane R does the NALC have its own hymnal yet or are they using the Lutheran Book of Worship, or what? I would be surprised if they were using the current ELCA hymnal given its extremely left-wing content. The ELCA hymnal is literally the worst Lutheran hymnal in my collection (whereas the 2006 LCMS Lutheran Service Book, the 1959 Lutheran Hymnal and Service Book, the old Augustana Synod hymnal with its unique translation of the Swedish Psalter, and the classic, exquisite 1941 Lutheran Hymnal are the finest specimens. I also am intrigued by the new WELS hymnal which looks a bit more exciting than their early 90s hymnal.

I also have one very rare specimen in my Lutheran hymnal collection, that being a special, glossy, Folio-sized copy of Lutheran Worship (the Blue Hymnal used in some LCMS parishes, which was a modified version of the Lutheran Book of Worship) which was specially issued in 1984 for an LCMS convention, and which is very beautifully done, and which I think ought to count as a genuinely interesting piece of LCMS history. And as an added plus, it is in extremely good condition, it might even be considered Like New.
 
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Shane R

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By the way @Shane R does the NALC have its own hymnal yet or are they using the Lutheran Book of Worship, or what?
Most use the LBW. Some have the 'cranberry' book, the most recent ELCA publication. There seems to be some movement away from that and I get the sense that the authorities would like that book to disappear. There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in producing a NALC service book. However, I was recently made aware that LCMC had made one about 10 years ago. Some parishes have dual affiliation with NALC and LCMC. The LCMC book is dark blue and rather short. The dean for Southeast Ohio participated in the project, although he was based in South Dakota at that time, and showed me one of the first run. He didn't let me take it home though.
 
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