The Gosples

[Jerrysch]

Were the Gospels given for the church's use as doctrine to be practiced, that is doctine for daily living?

 

[nwmsugrad]

Depends on the book. For the most part no

 

[MC1171611]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to ask, but I'll give it a try.

As we know, there are multiple gospels in the Bible. And, as Paul repeatedly tells us, in the Church Age, to follow him and his teachings, then we ought to see what he says.

1 Cor. 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

This would be the gospel that we are to preach, but living is another matter all together. We should take our lead again from Paul, and study these things out in his Epistles.

 

[Dave Taylor]

What saith the scriptures?

Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock"

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Matthew 11:5 "The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

Matthew 26:13 "Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her."

Mark 1:1 "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God"

Mark 10:29 "And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."

Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. "

 

[TheScottsMen]

What saith the scriptures?

Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock"

Do you take up serpents? Do you give everything you have to your church? Do you go only to the Jews?

John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

What were Christ words that they had to believe in the Gospels? Believe in his death and resurrection? All men of all times have been saved by faith, but what they believed in the gospels is not what we are required to believe for salvation today.

Matthew 11:5 "The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

What gospel was preached to the poor? Was Christ preaching "Believe in my death, and that I died for your sins, and rose that you may have everlasting life!" Did Christ preach this in the gospels? Could there be that there is more then one gospel? Is there more then one good news? I would think so. The Gospel that the poor had preached to them was that the Kingdom was coming! This was good news! The nations would be put at the feet of Messiah and Israel again would have its kingdom restored. But, this is only one aspect of what would happen in the kingdom.

Matthew 26:13 "Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her."

Again...and...again.. What gospel? Surely this is not the preachin of Cross as this was a mystery revealed to Paul. Don't believe me? Show me Pauls gospel in the 4 Gospels.

Mark 1:1 "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God"
The Gospel of the Kingdom, The Gospel of the Grace of God. There is more then one gospel found in the bible. Gospel simply means Good News. Is there only one good news in the bible?
[quote
Mark 10:29 "And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life."

Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. "

Again and again. What i said above.

 

[MC1171611]

Scottsman, I agree with you about the dispensations, but the guy that you are answering apparently knows nothing about that. I suggest that you give us some constructive posts about the gospel that we are supposed to preach, instead of bashing the guy because he has no knowledge of the Scriptures.

 

[Hedgehog]

Scottsman, I agree with you about the dispensations, but the guy that you are answering apparently knows nothing about that. I suggest that you give us some constructive posts about the gospel that we are supposed to preach, instead of bashing the guy because he has no knowledge of the Scriptures.

That was really harsh of you. Some of us know dispensationalist beliefs as well as any of you claim... we've read further into the scriptures and discovered more.

 

[MC1171611]

That was really harsh of you. Some of us know dispensationalist beliefs as well as any of you claim... we've read further into the scriptures and discovered more.

Harsh? I told the truth: either the aforementioned individual knows nothing of Dispensational Truth, or he is really mixed up. Not his fault: ignorance is simply the lack of knowledge.

 

[Dave Taylor]

The ignorant one speaks...

(Ignorant point #1)
Their is only one gospel....the gospel of Jesus Christ.

(Ignorant point #2)
It brings the good news of Salvation through faith in Christ the redeemer for the remission of sin and eternal life to all men.

(Ignorant point #3)
David, Isaiah, and Simeon, to name a few, knew the Gospel of Christ long before most if not all of the NT writers were ever born.

(Ignorant point #4)
Jesus Himself taught that His gospel of repentance and remission of sin in His name, by His suffering, death, burial, and 3-day resurrection had been taught and recorded in the OT scriptures:

Luke 24:44 "And Jesus said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name"

 

[Dispy]

Were the Gospels given for the church's use as doctrine to be practiced, that is doctine for daily living?

NO!!!

The Church, the Body of Christ, cannot be found in the gospels, therefore one cannot find the instructions for this Church in the gospels. They can only be found in Paul's Epistles. The Body of Christ, the Church for today was still future revelation.

When Jesus was born in Bethlehem, it was time, according to OT prophesy, for the kingdom of heaven to be establish to fulfill Isaiah 9:6, 7.

Jesus Himself said, in Matthew 15:25, "I am not come but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Also, Paul says in Romans 15:8 that Jesus came "to confirm the promises made to the fathers." The promises were for an everlasting kingdom to be established here upon the earth (Jer.23:5).

Jesus preached, and commanded His disciples to preach "the kingdom (out) of heaven is at hand" (about to be established).

If one will study "The Sermon on the Mount", (Matt.5-8) one will find that it is entirely addressed to those who will inherit the kingdom upon the earth. Matt.5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosever shall do and teach them, the same be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

In the parables of Jesus, He likens "the kingdom (out) of heaven" to various things. Members of "the Body of Christ" have no place in that kingdom upon the earth. We have a heavenly hope according to 2Cor.5:1 and Phil.3:20.

The reason that the kingdom was never establihed to this day is because Israel, as a nation, rejected their King and His Kingdom. Therefore, God interrupted the kingdom program and ushered in this "dispensation of grace" through Saul/Paul. The kingdom upon the earth is still future, after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[holdon]

NO!!!

The Church, the Body of Christ, cannot be found in the gospels, therefore one cannot find the instructions for this Church in the gospels.

Your ultra-dispensationalism seems to get ahead of you here. Because in the most 'dispensational' gospel of all 4, Matthew, we find explicit reference to the Church in Mt. 16:18 and 18:17.

 

[TheScottsMen]

Your ultra-dispensationalism seems to get ahead of you here. Because in the most 'dispensational' gospel of all 4, Matthew, we find explicit reference to the Church in Mt. 16:18 and 18:17.

What makes his dispensationalism ultra or hyper? Those that makes such lables is because they simply do not agree with the interpretion and thus try to discredit it based on calling it "hyper" or "ultra". Its nonsense.

As for Matth 16:18 - What assembly, gathering, or church is Christ talking about here? You don't believe that this is the Church of today simply because the word church is used, do you? The english translation of Church is from the greek word ecclesia. For instance,

Acts 19:32,39,41 illustrate uses for ecclesia that do not refer to the Lord’s Church. "The assembly was confused" (v.32). What assembly? An unruly mob called out of the general population to defend the goddess Diana. "It shall be determined in a lawful assembly" (v.39). Here, it is a court, a group of people called out of the general population to ascertain the truth according to law. "He dismissed the assembly" (v.41). Here again it was the unruly mob. Acts 7:38, "in the ecclesia in the wilderness," refers to the Old Testament congregation of Israel in the wilderness, called out by God from the surrounding nations.

We must not take the word ecclesia, or church, and simply say "Ah! Here is the Church of today!" simply because the word church is used. The word church can only be viewed and understood in the context of which it is used. Jesus Christ was refering to the Kingdom Church, and the keys that would be given to Peter to offer the kingdom TO Israel, which was done in Acts 3 and the early chapters of the book of Acts.

 

[holdon]

What makes his dispensationalism ultra or hyper? Those that makes such lables is because they simply do not agree with the interpretion and thus try to discredit it based on calling it "hyper" or "ultra". Its nonsense.

I think the reasoning was ultra-dispensational in character. Ultra-dispensationalists will claim that Paul introduced a new order of things. The period (or dispensation) of grace would then only start somewhere in Acts. (ultra-dispensationalists do not agree as to where exactly).

As for Matth 16:18 - What assembly, gathering, or church is Christ talking about here? You don't believe that this is the Church of today simply because the word church is used, do you?

Of course I do. When came there another Church?

We must not take the word ecclesia, or church, and simply say "Ah! Here is the Church of today!" simply because the word church is used. The word church can only be viewed and understood in the context of which it is used. Jesus Christ was refering to the Kingdom Church, and the keys that would be given to Peter to offer the kingdom of Israel, which was done in Acts 3 and the early chapters of the book of Acts.

You seem to be confused. Jesus does mention "my Church" (or my assembly) in Mt 16:18. In the following verse He says that He will give Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven. There is no mention at all of "kingdom Church", or the "kingdom of Israel". There is no mention at all that the Church = the kingdom.

 

[MC1171611]

I think the reasoning was ultra-dispensational in character. Ultra-dispensationalists will claim that Paul introduced a new order of things. The period (or dispensation) of grace would then only start somewhere in Acts. (ultra-dispensationalists do not agree as to where exactly).

To find out what you believe, would you please tell me how many of each there are?

Gospels
Baptisms
Kingdoms
Natures of man
Ressurections
Judgements
Earths

That should be enough to get you started: we can go from there into Paul's Epistles.

 

[TheScottsMen]

I think the reasoning was ultra-dispensational in character. Ultra-dispensationalists will claim that Paul introduced a new order of things. The period (or dispensation) of grace would then only start somewhere in Acts. (ultra-dispensationalists do not agree as to where exactly). Of course I do. When came there another Church? You seem to be confused. Jesus does mention "my Church" (or my assembly) in Mt 16:18. In the following verse He says that He will give Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven. There is no mention at all of "kingdom Church", or the "kingdom of Israel". There is no mention at all that the Church = the kingdom.

First off, that was a misspelling on my part, I was trying to say "Kingdom TO Israel" not of Israel. And i would agree again, the Kingdom is not the Church nor is the Church the Kingdom, but the church of the gospels would be IN the Kingdom of Heaven, thus it is the Kingdom Church. I'll answer your post in detail when im done at work.

 

[holdon]

To find out what you believe, would you please tell me how many of each there are?

Gospels
Baptisms
Kingdoms
Natures of man
Ressurections
Judgements
Earths

That should be enough to get you started: we can go from there into Paul's Epistles.

And what if I said 1 each time? So, get me into Paul's epistles....

 

[Dave Taylor]

I like it when folks ask others to clarify what they believe, instead of assuming things that they really don't believe.
I think this was a great idea, asking a list, and wanting to know 'how many' are believed for each one.

I'll giver her a go....(even though my replies are ignorant, as I have been so kindly told)

• Gospels
  One- The good news of Jesus Christ, and how He is the redeemer of humanities sin
  
  
• Baptisms
  One- The outward act an individual does to show their inward change of the heart in becoming a follower and servant of Christ
  
  
• Kingdoms
  Well...this term is vague, there are all kinds of Kingdoms found throughout history and the Bible....but I think the point comes down again to 'you-know-who'.....Jesus Christ.
  
  Therefore, One- Jesus Christ has one kingdom, it contains His redeemed faithful followers of all ages, races, and places.
  
  
• Natures of man
  Two- Man's fallen sinful nature prior to being redeemed and born again by Christ and regenerated by the Holy Spirit; and Man's redeemed, forgiven, Christ-following nature that we are made into by the Blood of the Lamb
  
  
• Ressurections
  Again, like 'kingdoms' it depends on the definition...There are many resurrections found in the scriptures where humans died physically and were raised back, resurrected, or returned to physical life...I don't think that is the ones you are counting though...I think you mean, 'End-Time Resurrections' that have an eternal ramification.
  
  In that definition, we find One-As Jesus said in John 5:28, the resurrection unto life or unto damnation...or as Paul called in in Acts 26, the resurrection of the Just or of the unjust.
  

• Judgements
  Again, another word that depicts things that have occured many times throughout history...but in an eschatological perspective...One-When Christ returns at the 2nd Advent, the final judgment day of humanity will occur.
  
  
• Earths
  Two- This present mortal, sinfilled, corruptible Earth, and the New Earth that will be presented and will be immortal, sinless, and uncorruptible at the return of Christ; when the wicked are destroyed, and all that is left is righteousness.

Now what is funny though, is that back in the years when I believed and followed the Dispensational view, I would have mis-answered those questions very differently....Here is what I would have said back then....

How I would have answered this question back in my old Dispensational Days....

• Gospels
  Several- The Gospel of the Kingdom, and the Gospel of Paul....The Gospel that would apply in the Tribulation period, and the Gospel that would apply in the Mill Kingdom....

• Baptisms
  Two-Three- The ones that the OT and Gospel age (pre-pentecost) folks partook of which didn't involve the Holy Spirit, and the baptism of post-pentecostal Christians which does involve the Holy Spirit; and then after the Pretrib Rapture, the return back to the non-Holy Spirit type of Baptism that is only reserved for the Church Age, and that cannot be partaken of during the Tribulation period; for that dispensation does not have the Holy Spirit.
• Kingdoms
  Two- The Kingdom of the Church which is heavenly, and can only include saved people between Pentecost and the Pretrib Rapture, and the Kingdom of Israel that includes the OT saints, the Trib saints, and the Mill saints who survive the 2nd Coming to repopulate the planet
• Natures of man
  I don't think I would have changed this one....even when I was dispensational, I don't really see this as being different...either one is fallen or one is redeemed by Christ...but perhaps in my old Dispensationalism days I might have created a third nature of man for those Mill folks who are forced to reinstitute animal sacrifices and Judaic rituals for their purification, atonement, and salvation.
• Ressurections
  Four or Five- #1) The resurrection of OT Saints at either Matthew 27:53 or Matthew 24:31....(Dispies seem fairly evenly divided on either of these two spots as when the OT Saints get their resurrection)
  #2) The resurrection of Church Age Saints at the pretrib rapture
  #3) The resurrection of Gentile Trib Saints at the 2nd Advent
  #4) The resurrection of Trib Jews and maybe OT Jews at the 2nd Advent
  #5) The resurrection of Mill Saints at the Great White Throne

• Judgements
  Three- #1) The Judgement seat of Christ that is suppose to occur during the 7 year vacation in Heaven that only the Post-Pentecost believers can participate in; #2) the judgment that occurs at the 2nd Coming for the nations that come against Christ at Armegeddon (But not all of the wicked are killed, some get exemptions and exceptions so they can mortally repopulate the planet); #3) The final Great White Throne Judgment where the Mill Mortals are judged, and all of the wicked who may not have been judged yet are finally judged
• Earths
  Three- #1) The mortal earth prior to the Mill, #2) The Mill 'New Earth' as applied in Isaiah 65-66 to the post-2nd Advent Kingdom where Sin, death, and the curse still exist; and #3) The Post-Great White Throne New Earth...where the Jews will be stationed for eternity...(The Church-age Saints won't be there...their station is the New Heavens...not the New Earth....The church and Israel must be be eternally separated, segregated, and partitioned off from each other you know!!!).

 

[MC1171611]

And what if I said 1 each time? So, get me into Paul's epistles....

1 Cor. 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1 Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Philipians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Paul says multiple times to follow him. Why?

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Because his Gospel was something new that Jesus Christ had given to him.

This will clear up a lot of doctrinal differences if we view the Scriptures through the light of Paul's Epistles. STOP. I know what you're thinking. I am not advocating throwing the rest of the Bible out: listen to this.

All Scripture has three applications:

Historical-teaching
Doctrinal-praching
Spiritual-counsel/application to our lives

Now, everything in the Bible is to be used for: "...and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...." All Scripture is profitable for doctrine; not all of it is doctrine to us. For example:

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Do we pluck out our eyes every time they cause us to sin? This is where the to/for discussion comes in. All Scripture is for us, but much Scripture is not to us. Example:

James 1:1 ¶ James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

This book can be used greatly: there are lots of things that we can apply spiritually. But, if we take it all literally, then we run into major contradictions:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

This is a direct "contradiction" to Ephesians 2:8-9! But, if we take it in the context of the book, James is not addressing us.

Don't throw anything out, just don't take it all literally. Jesus taught the Jews that in order to get into Heaven/recieve Eternal Life, that they needed to perform, good works (Rich young Ruler, etc.).

Also, Paul tells us that we are no longer under the Jewish Law. But, Moses said that the Law was the Righteousness of the Israelites. ?!? Moses was speaking to the Jews during the Dispensation of the Law, Paul is to the Church in the Dispensation of Grace (Eph. 3:2). Learn lessons from the Jews in the OT, but if you apply their laws, then you put yourself under the yoke of bondage that Paul was talking about.

Preguntas?

 

[Dave Taylor]

1 Cor. 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
1 Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Philipians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Paul says multiple times to follow him. Why?

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Because his Gospel was something new that Jesus Christ had given to him.

That scripture doesn't teach Paul had a new Gospel....it only teaches that Jesus Christ personally revealed the gospel to Paul....by direct revelation.

Paul didn't learn the gospel in the synogogues or by an elder or by his personal studies; Paul was taught the gospel of Christ directly from Christ Himself.

It was no more 'new' then that it was 'new' when the Lord taught it to Isaiah, and he recorded it in Isaiah chapter 53, or when David recorded it in Psalms 22.

 

[MC1171611]

That scripture doesn't teach Paul had a new Gospel....it only teaches that Jesus Christ personally revealed the gospel to Paul....by direct revelation.

Paul didn't learn the gospel in the synogogues or by an elder or by his personal studies; Paul was taught the gospel of Christ directly from Christ Himself.

It was no more 'new' then that it was 'new' when the Lord taught it to Isaiah, and he recorded it in Isaiah chapter 53, or when David recorded it in Psalms 22.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

The Disciples had no idea of what was going on when Christ died, and neither Isaiah nor David had any idea what they were writing when the Holy Spirit moved them to write those passages: crucifixion didn't even exist yet! Paul did recieve this new Gospel in the wilderness of Arabia (Gal. 1) and said that if anyone taught anything other than what he preached, that they were to be accursed.

By the way, there are three Gospels: The Gospel of the Grace of God, The Gospel of the Kingdom, and the Glorious Gospel; Two Kingdoms: the Kingdom of Heaven, and the Kingdom of God.