The Gospel

[Tree of Life]

"Christ has risen from the dead! And because He lives, we who know Him shall live also. In the resurrection, Jesus Christ conquered sin and death and is alive forevermore. All over the world, churches are filled with worshipers because there is an empty tomb in Jerusalem". - Billy Graham Christ Has Conquered Death​

Has the victory of Christ been perfectly applied? Or is there more to come?

 

[mkgal1]

Has the victory of Christ been perfectly applied? Or is there more to come?

"Perfectly applied"? No - but I believe that's up to us to walk in the victory He has already provided.

 

[mkgal1]

I'm not a writer, but this language is what rings true in my heart (and I'd never try to put this in my own words or else I'd slaughter it):

Quoting from THE VICTORY OVER DEATH
By Saint Nikolai Velimirovic

He was not victorious for His own sake, but for ours. His victory did not make Him greater, or more alive, or richer, but it did us. His victory is not selfishness, but love, not grabbing but giving. Earthly conquerors take the victory; Christ is the only Conqueror who brings it. No single earthly conqueror, king or commander desires that his victory be taken from him and given to another; only the Risen Lord offers His victory with both hands to each one of us, and is not angered but rather rejoices when we, by His victory, becomes victors--that is: greater, more alive and richer than we were.

Earthly victories look better when viewed from afar, but uglier and more repulsive when seen close at hand; while, as for Christ's victory, one could not say whence it looks better, from afar or from close at hand. Looking at this victory from afar, we marvel at it as unique in its brightness, purity and saving grace. Looking at it from close at hand, we marvel at it because of the terrible enemies who are overcome by it, and also because of the vast numbers of slaves who have been freed by it.

By His Resurrection, the Lord overcame the two fiercest enemies of human life and dignity: death and sin. ~ The Victory Over Death​

 

[Residential Bob]

Could you offer your explanation of this petition of the Lord's Prayer for the peanut gallery?

Your kingdom come,
your will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.​

This is the reality now. In Christ, God has united the things in heaven and the things on earth (Eph 1:10).

BTW, you're not a peanut gallery; I'm glad you're engaging me.

 

[Tree of Life]

"Perfectly applied"? No - but I believe that's up to us to walk in the victory He has already provided.

Can we raise up our own bodies from the dead?

 

[Tree of Life]

Your kingdom come,
your will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.​

This is the reality now. In Christ, God has united the things in heaven and the things on earth (Eph 1:10).

I believe you have an over-realized eschatology. This means that you're ascribing too much end-time reality to the present moment. There's lots more to come. It's not all present now. Jesus still needs to subdue the nations, return in bodily form, raise up all the dead, judge, take away all sin and death, finally destroy the devil, and bring about a New Heavens and a New Earth.

Don't you believe there's lots more to come?

 

[Residential Bob]

I believe you have an over-realized eschatology. This means that you're ascribing too much end-time reality to the present moment.

You may believe what you want.

Can you show us where I've erred?

There's lots more to come. It's not all present now. Jesus still needs to subdue the nations, return in bodily form, raise up all the dead, judge, take away all sin and death, finally destroy the devil, and bring about a New Heavens and a New Earth.

Don't you believe there's lots more to come?

If you'd like, I can show you where you've erred again. Just once more, anyway.

By bodily form, you mean a flesh-and-blood form, correct? A corporeal return?

Where is that passage?

 

[Tree of Life]

You may believe what you want.

Can you show us where I've erred?

Maybe I'm assuming too much about what you believe. Do you believe that the devil is still active in the world today? Do you believe that we still struggle with sin and there remains sinful inclinations within people who are saved? Do you believe that Jesus will return again in bodily form and judge? Do you believe in a final resurrection?

All of these things would be entailed in the full coming of God's Kingdom. But if you deny these things then that's another story.

If you'd like, I can show you where you've erred again. Just once more, anyway.

By bodily form, you mean a flesh-and-blood form, correct? A corporeal return?

Where is that passage?

Acts 1:10-11 comes to mind - "10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Do you deny the future, bodily return of Christ?

 

[redleghunter]

This is the reality now. In Christ, God has united the things in heaven and the things on earth (Eph 1:10).

I have to agree with @Tree of Life that yes we are Kingdom citizens now but the things united in heaven and things on earth is yet future at the Second coming of Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1: NASB

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

We are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is given as a pledge of our inheritance.

Seems we have an inheritance to come.

 

[mkgal1]

Can we raise up our own bodies from the dead?

Aren't we called to be "new people" walking in the Spirit? Doesn't Scripture say (in past tense) "we were buried with Him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in a new way of life." (Romans 6:4)?

Are we waiting for that (maybe a lot of people ARE - but I'm accepting that as present)?

I'm not so convinced that what's written about is referring to a physical reality (I do accept that eventually there may be a physical fulfillment or else Jesus wouldn't have been resurrected bodily). But I don't believe we are waiting for the spiritual reality. God warned humanity that "they would surely die" if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Did Adam and Eve drop dead physically once they ate from that tree?

 

[Residential Bob]

Maybe I'm assuming too much about what you believe. Do you believe that the devil is still active in the world today? Do you believe that we still struggle with sin and there remains sinful inclinations within people who are saved? Do you believe that Jesus will return again in bodily form and judge? Do you believe in a final resurrection?

All of these things would be entailed in the full coming of God's Kingdom. But if you deny these things then that's another story.



Acts 1:10-11 comes to mind - "10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Do you deny the future, bodily return of Christ?

Of course I deny it. The Scriptures don't claim it.

You realize that Luke wrote Acts after the resurrection and before the destruction of the temple, right? Naturally, he wrote of a future event - a few decades in the future. And not of a corporeal return. He came in a cloud. In Shekina glory. Much as Elijah returned, only with a sword. When Christ returned in judgment, people died by the sword.

I'm not sure this is answering the OP, though. What is the kingdom? Have we determined that?

 

[Residential Bob]

I have to agree with @Tree of Life that yes we are Kingdom citizens now but the things united in heaven and things on earth is yet future at the Second coming of Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1: NASB

7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

We are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is given as a pledge of our inheritance.

Seems we have an inheritance to come.

Do you realize Paul is writing in the past tense? Even in your NASB version?

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.​

 

[Residential Bob]

Do you realize Paul is writing in the past tense? Even in your NASB version?

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.​

My mistake. Paul wrote this in the present tense.

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.​

 

[mkgal1]

We are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is given as a pledge of our inheritance.

Seems we have an inheritance to come.

The period of time - that I understand - is from 30 AD until 70 AD (when the "inheritance" of the Kingdom was realized).

 

[mkgal1]

.....according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

This, in my opinion, is the key passage that helps to build the framework of understanding His Kingdom (and is probably where people are divided).

For those that believe that "things in heaven and things on earth" are a literal "up in the sky and far away" sort of heaven/ and our globe as "earth" it's one understanding - but those of us that understand "heaven" to mean "God's domain" and "earth" to mean "humanity" we arrive at a whole other understanding. To me....this is simply stating that God is bridging the gap that was created by sin. I'm still surprised that it's controversial to believe that God has already (past tense) taken care of that severed union between God and humanity.

 

[Residential Bob]

This, in my opinion, is the key passage that helps to build the framework of understanding His Kingdom (and is probably where people are divided).

For those that believe that "things in heaven and things on earth" are a literal "up in the sky and far away" sort of heaven/ and our globe as "earth" it's one understanding - but those of us that understand "heaven" to mean "God's domain" and "earth" to mean "humanity" we arrive at a whole other understanding. To me....this is simply stating that God is bridging the gap that was created by sin. I'm still surprised that it's controversial to believe that God has already (past tense) taken care of that severed union between God and humanity.

It's silly to think that it's literal. That union had already happened when Paul wrote Ephesians, and nothing in heaven actually fell to the earth.

You're right; we don't understand the kingdom, as this thread demonstrates. Therefore, we don't understand the Gospel.

 

[Tree of Life]

Of course I deny it. The Scriptures don't claim it.

You realize that Luke wrote Acts after the resurrection and before the destruction of the temple, right? Naturally, he wrote of a future event - a few decades in the future. And not of a corporeal return. He came in a cloud. In Shekina glory. Much as Elijah returned, only with a sword. When Christ returned in judgment, people died by the sword.

I'm not sure this is answering the OP, though. What is the kingdom? Have we determined that?

If you deny that Christ will return bodily then you have departed from the Christian faith and understand nothing of the gospel.

 

[Residential Bob]

If you deny that Christ will return bodily then you have departed from the Christian faith and understand nothing of the gospel.

Christ will return on a cloud, in the flesh. Like some sort of comic book superhero. Groovy. Or is it a white horse?

As for me, I say he returned in power and glory.

 

[Tree of Life]

Christ will return on a cloud, in the flesh. Like some sort of comic book superhero. Groovy. Or is it a white horse?

As for me, I say he returned in power and glory.

You might want to ask a mod to change your faith designation from "Christian" to "Seeker".

 

[redleghunter]

The period of time - that I understand - is from 30 AD until 70 AD (when the "inheritance" of the Kingdom was realized).

Please explain as I'm still in this body which is perishing each day as my inner man is renewed day by day.

Did I miss the Resurrection of the dead and the life to come Amen! ?