The Good of Man

[The_Horses_Boy]

I have had this new thing in me come up (don't ask how) and I want to beleive in the Good of Man, yet I have commonly heard and even said that man is inherently evil, born of sin.

But doesn't the book say (I remember the jist of it but can't remember the verse) that a man who has never heard God's law but has it written on his heart will enter the Kingdom of God?

 

[Soul_Searcher]

Hi Horses Boy,

"...and I want to believe in the Good of Man, yet I have commonly heard and even said that man is inherently evil, born of sin."

Then believe in the Good of Man, that God/Christ dwells within each of us, that all we need do is open our hearts and cast out fear and we will know the good within.

"But doesn't the book say (I remember the jist of it but can't remember the verse) that a man who has never heard God's law but has it written on his heart will enter the Kingdom of God?"

I don't know, never heard that one. Jesus said to follow the commandments, to give away what we have (denounce the material world) and follow him. If we weren't already good, why would he bother? Remember, it was Paul who called us all sinners, not Jesus.

 

[The_Horses_Boy]

Hi Horses Boy,

"...and I want to believe in the Good of Man, yet I have commonly heard and even said that man is inherently evil, born of sin."

Then believe in the Good of Man, that God/Christ dwells within each of us, that all we need do is open our hearts and cast out fear and we will know the good within.

"But doesn't the book say (I remember the jist of it but can't remember the verse) that a man who has never heard God's law but has it written on his heart will enter the Kingdom of God?"

I don't know, never heard that one. Jesus said to follow the commandments, to give away what we have (denounce the material world) and follow him. If we weren't already good, why would he bother? Remember, it was Paul who called us all sinners, not Jesus.

Thank you. That has been helpful.

 

[DailyBlessings]

I have had this new thing in me come up (don't ask how) and I want to beleive in the Good of Man, yet I have commonly heard and even said that man is inherently evil, born of sin.

We are sinful, but not evil. We are born of the love of God, loving and beautiful beyond our understanding, and no mistake was made in our construction. We are inherently good, because the secrets of our hearts were created by God who is good.

From Isaiah:

...I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be...

But doesn't the book say (I remember the jist of it but can't remember the verse) that a man who has never heard God's law but has it written on his heart will enter the Kingdom of God?

You refer to the second chapter of Romans:

...All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

 

[Soul_Searcher]

Hi Horses Boy,

"Thank you. That has been helpful."

You're very welcome. Anytime.

 

[tocis]

...doesn't the book say (I remember the jist of it but can't remember the verse) that a man who has never heard God's law but has it written on his heart will enter the Kingdom of God?

Yup. Romans 2:13-15

One of my favorite bible quotes... especially if you read on after that until the end of chapter 2, you know, the whole merciless condemnation of blind literalism

Of course I've seen fundie "refutations" of these verses... and like pretty much everything coming from fanatical literalists they don't make much sense really. Oh well.

 

[JBrian]

I have had this new thing in me come up (don't ask how) and I want to beleive in the Good of Man, yet I have commonly heard and even said that man is inherently evil, born of sin.

But doesn't the book say (I remember the jist of it but can't remember the verse) that a man who has never heard God's law but has it written on his heart will enter the Kingdom of God?

No. Romans 2 teaches that even if one does not hear the Gospel he still has God's law written on his heart. However, one cannot be saved without Christ. Since he has the law on his heart and knows that he is guilty (according to Rom 2) he will be held accountable. No where in the Bible is salvation offered apart from Christ. Simply having the law does not save anyone. The text simply teaches that all have the moral law written on their hearts. However, Paul, in the same book, even the next chapter, teaches that no one has ever kept this law, and in the sixth chapter teaches that the wages of their sin is death. In chapter five we learn that Christ died for our sin. And in chapter ten we learn that if we confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God has raised Him from the dead we will be saved. The very theme of the book is justification by faith. Paul certainly would not contradict himself here by saying that merely having the law and doing it will save you. This passage must taken in context of the rest of the letter.

 

[JBrian]

Yup. Romans 2:13-15

One of my favorite bible quotes... especially if you read on after that until the end of chapter 2, you know, the whole merciless condemnation of blind literalism

Of course I've seen fundie "refutations" of these verses... and like pretty much everything coming from fanatical literalists they don't make much sense really. Oh well.

See my above statement. Please explain why based on Rom. 2 you think someone can be saved apart from Christ. Please give references and avoid your ad hominem arguments.

Thanks,

Brian

 

[tocis]

See my above statement. Please explain why based on Rom. 2 you think someone can be saved apart from Christ.

Duh - because it says that. I stated the verses above, so where's your problem?

Please give references and avoid your ad hominem arguments.

So I do have to claim that an argument makes sense even if it doesn't or I'm ad-homming or what?

 

[JBrian]

Duh - because it says that. I stated the verses above, so where's your problem?



So I do have to claim that an argument makes sense even if it doesn't or I'm ad-homming or what?

The verses you gave say nothing of salvation, merely that even Gentiles have the law written on their heart, and therefore their conscience bears witness with them to defend or accuse them. However, taken in the whole context of the book, there is no justification without faith in Christ.

 

[tocis]

The verses you gave say nothing of salvation, merely that even Gentiles have the law written on their heart, and therefore their conscience bears witness with them to defend or accuse them. However, taken in the whole context of the book, there is no justification without faith in Christ.

Your interpretation. Fine. Mine looks different.

Who's right? Good question, no? If the literal text doesn't help it's all too soon a free-for-all.
Considering the many many incompatible parts the "body of christ" is made of, it looks like this is a problem even within christendom...

(By the way, taking your interpretation literally, are Moses, Noah and the rest of the holy people before Jesus in hell? Hard to have faith in someone who doesn't even exist yet...)

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

If you read the rest of the Bible, rather than run w/ 3 verses, you can see that salvation is through christ. You can't run w/ verses as you've done.

And to your last comment...that's mentioned in the Bible as well.

 

[tocis]

If you read the rest of the Bible...

Been there, done that. Still have the same POV. So what now?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

So nothing...I can't make you see right from wrong.

 

[JBrian]

Your interpretation. Fine. Mine looks different.

Who's right? Good question, no? If the literal text doesn't help it's all too soon a free-for-all.
Considering the many many incompatible parts the "body of christ" is made of, it looks like this is a problem even within christendom...

(By the way, taking your interpretation literally, are Moses, Noah and the rest of the holy people before Jesus in hell? Hard to have faith in someone who doesn't even exist yet...)

According to two chapters later (CH 4) Abraham was saved by faith. The same applies to anyone before Christ.

It's a good thing the literal text does help. It is clear from this passage and the context of the entire book that one is not saved by the law, rituals, or rites, but only through Christ.

 

[tocis]

Ah, the good old "I found one verse that says what I want to hear, so I'm right" again.
There are verses in the very same book saying that salvation comes by works. You won't need me to point you to them - they aren't difficult to find. Unless you can provide clear biblical evidence for your verses having more "weight", so to say, than "mine", it's POV against POV.

Dropping out of this thread now, as I've been through all this numerous times before and know how it will end.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Actually no. I think you are misunderstanding the scriptures. That's the problem. Nowhere in the NT does it say you're saved by works. Nowhere. You are saved by grace. That's clearly expressed. But anywho...good day.

 

[JBrian]

Ah, the good old "I found one verse that says what I want to hear, so I'm right" again.
There are verses in the very same book saying that salvation comes by works. You won't need me to point you to them - they aren't difficult to find. Unless you can provide clear biblical evidence for your verses having more "weight", so to say, than "mine", it's POV against POV.

Dropping out of this thread now, as I've been through all this numerous times before and know how it will end.

I said this passage and the context of the entire book shows clearly that Paul teaches that salvation is by faith. I am not giving a proof text. The entire book must be taken into account. However, even the verses you quote in chapter two still do not prove your point. It only says that one is accused or defended by his conscience because whether one is a Jew or a Gentile he has the moral law written on his heart.I simply gave an example. The theme of the whole book is justification by faith. Nowhere does Paul teach salvation by works.