The god who (once again) wasn't there: Virginia Tech

[Morcova]

Any intervention on God would ruin the freewill implemented on man by God.

And if your child is playing in traffic removing your child from the street would also ruin the freewill of the child. But it would atleast show that you love the child.

 

[loudatheist101]

Any intervention on God would ruin the freewill implemented on man by God.

There was also the possibility that the gunmen would throw down their gun in the application of free will for the choice can go two ways in man's own consciousness.

Again the choice is left upon man alone.

What about the lives of the victims? What if your own parents just watched you kill 32 members of your family, and yourself. Would your father just say to the police, "Well I said he had free will, I knew this was going to happen, I had the power to stop it, but I did not because he has free will to murder whoever he wants to." Well, I guess no one should rely on God to keep them safe! That is certain. Ever wondered if this "free will" thing is just a lame excuse to tough questions like this?

 

[m9lc]

I could have swore this was the 'Philosphy' forum. How do you KNOW murder is wrong? Are you implying that all humans know this by intuition?

If you must know, I believe murder is wrong because I would not want it done it to me. It's really that simple, and that's the principle from which I derive most of my morals.

I do believe that all humans can understand that killing is wrong. Whether their conscience trumps over their desire to kill for whatever reason is what makes people kill. "Treat people as you would want to be treated."

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here - but this is a little ridiculous. What you are doing is presupposing an ethical standard - murder is wrong. How do you explain that you have this knowledge? Why do you believe that I should (by default) have this knowledge and assume everyone has it? Certainly all do not - throughout the history we have numerous, countless murders, genocides, etc. Let's take Hitler -he didn't believe he was wrong for the genocide of the Jews. So why is what he did MORALLY wrong?

Because he did something to millions of people which he would not want done to himself.

Because he lost the war and those who won said so? Or had he won, would he still have been wrong?

Well, let's take a look at the Bible... the Jews decisively won many battles under the command of God, supposedly. Afterwards, several times, they were ordered by God to commit genocide on the entire populace, including children. Jericho, for instance. They definitely won, but many people including myself view it as an atrocity if it did happen.

In short, yes, genocide is wrong. Now whether a winning side may have covered up their wrongdoings in history, that doesn't mean I think it's right; it just means I don't know about it.

My worldview explains this - you presuppose it without any attempt to defend your presupposition. By claiming a higher ground (in an attempt to make me sound ingorant) you further presuppose your presuppostion is common to all mankind. Yet, you haven't attempted any basis for your claims- should I ever expect an answer? Or are you satisfied with a worldview void of any philosophical relevance?

I just wanted you to tell me why you believed murder was wrong (besides "God said so"), so that I could simply say "Me too", but I guess, from what you said, that you need an imaginary friend in the sky to keep you from killing people.

 

[Defcon]

Any particular reason you went way out of your way to not answer my question?

I'll ask it again.

Originally Posted by Morcova
The only reason you can think of that murder is wrong is because god said it was?

If god never said that murder was wrong would you still think it was wrong?

Oh I get it - so you expect me to answer you directly (though I have), yet you won't answer me (of which I asked first). Sure seems fair.

Yes God forbids murder. That's it. Now, do I know it beyond the word? Sure I do, as Romans 1:18-32 explains - God has made Himself known to all yet they chose not to glorify Him. Yet, even though all exchange the truth for a lie, everyone still knows they deserve death.

Beyond this, because of God's mercy alone, I have been given eyes to see my sinfulness, my own exchanging of His truth for lies. But there is forgiveness in His Son and with it comes rebirth so that we may know the truth.

Now- your answer to my question please.

 

[Defcon]

If you must know, I believe murder is wrong because I would not want it done it to me. It's really that simple, and that's the principle from which I derive most of my morals.

But this isn't universal. Hitler, Hussein, etc. did not share this view. Are they valid in their judgements since they followed sincerely what they believed?

I do believe that all humans can understand that killing is wrong. Whether their conscience trumps over their desire to kill for whatever reason is what makes people kill. "Treat people as you would want to be treated."

That sure sounds nice, but you are borrowing my worldview - Matthew 7:12 " So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." But we've already seen you don't believe the Bible is authoritive. So where else do you derive the principle? And where is it that it spreads to every man and binds His conscience in your worldview?

Because he did something to millions of people which he would not want done to himself.

So self-defense shouldn't be practiced? Someone pulls a knife on you and you should let him kill you? "Well I wouldn't want him to kill me, so I won't kill them." I'm guessing this isn't your viewpoint - so it seems you have more complexity to your viewpoint than this. Please explain.

Well, let's take a look at the Bible... the Jews decisively won many battles under the command of God, supposedly. Afterwards, several times, they were ordered by God to commit genocide on the entire populace, including children. Jericho, for instance. They definitely won, but many people including myself view it as an atrocity if it did happen.

Well, that depends on your worldview.

I just wanted you to tell me why you believed murder was wrong (besides "God said so"), so that I could simply say "Me too", but I guess, from what you said, that you need an imaginary friend in the sky to keep you from killing people.

Romans 1:18-32. He's not imaginary, He's why you know what you know about right and wrong and why you also know He exists.

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

And if your child is playing in traffic removing your child from the street would also ruin the freewill of the child. But it would atleast show that you love the child.

There is no comparison and I don't think anyone would let their own child die in such a way without intervention in human lives but I also think the flaw of your surmise is contemplating a human perception of that of a deity.

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

What about the lives of the victims? What if your own parents just watched you kill 32 members of your family, and yourself. Would your father just say to the police, "Well I said he had free will, I knew this was going to happen, I had the power to stop it, but I did not because he has free will to murder whoever he wants to." Well, I guess no one should rely on God to keep them safe! That is certain. Ever wondered if this "free will" thing is just a lame excuse to tough questions like this?

Points to last post.

 

[loudatheist101]

Points to last post.

So in other words, a deity is more careless then us humans. I thought God was all loving and perfect?

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

So in other words, a deity is more careless then us humans. I thought God was all loving and perfect?

There is no justification for such a post.

Please come up with a more constructive post.

 

[loudatheist101]

There is no justification for such a post.

Please come up with a more constructive post.

Ok, you don't know, clever way to say it though!

 

[Morcova]

There is no comparison and I don't think anyone would let their own child die in such a way without intervention in human lives but I also think the flaw of your surmise is contemplating a human perception of that of a deity.

Sorry, no flaw at all, your deity wishes to be thought of as a father, thus one would expect him to act is such a manner.

 

[Morcova]

Oh I get it - so you expect me to answer you directly (though I have), yet you won't answer me (of which I asked first). Sure seems fair.

Yes God forbids murder. That's it. Now, do I know it beyond the word? Sure I do, as Romans 1:18-32 explains - God has made Himself known to all yet they chose not to glorify Him. Yet, even though all exchange the truth for a lie, everyone still knows they deserve death.

Beyond this, because of God's mercy alone, I have been given eyes to see my sinfulness, my own exchanging of His truth for lies. But there is forgiveness in His Son and with it comes rebirth so that we may know the truth.

Now- your answer to my question please.

Is there any particular reason why you didn't answer both questions? Please answer the second question.

Originally Posted by Morcova
The only reason you can think of that murder is wrong is because god said it was?

If god never said that murder was wrong would you still think it was wrong?

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

Ok, you don't know, clever way to say it though!

What a cop out post you have there.

 

[loudatheist101]

Is there any particular reason why you didn't answer both questions? Please answer the second question.

Originally Posted by Morcova
The only reason you can think of that murder is wrong is because god said it was?

If god never said that murder was wrong would you still think it was wrong?

Why do we praise this Guy if He will not do ONE thing to help us? He just sit backs and watches.

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

Sorry, no flaw at all, your deity wishes to be thought of as a father, thus one would expect him to act is such a manner.

There is no comparison of God the father to a mortal father.

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

Why do we praise this Guy if He will not do ONE thing to help us? He just sit backs and watches.

We praise God that he gave us life of existance and that he helps us through faith in understanding life spiritually beyond the corruptive constructed systems of man.

 

[Morcova]

There is no comparison of God the father to a mortal father.

Could you back that up with scripture or is that just your personal opinion?

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

Could you back that up with scripture or is that just your personal opinion?

It is my personal opinion but if I must list some scriptures I guess I would list:

1 John 1:15-17

 

[Cheriann]

 

[loudatheist101]

We praise God that he gave us life of existance and that he helps us through faith in understanding life spiritually beyond the corruptive constructed systems of man.

Is that all God did? Create us and now He just sits back and watches us kill each other? You sound like a deist! What is the point of praying to Him for guidance then?