The god who (once again) wasn't there: Virginia Tech

[elman]

Because god loves us so much he's willing to watch us die horribly.


Yeah..... you people have a different concept of love than i do.

Yes and of life and purpose for existing.

 

[elman]

Christians say that no one does wrong or feels hatred in Heaven, right? (If anyone did wrong, then there would be pain in Heaven, which there isn't.) That being the case, according to you all, we have no free will in Heaven, do we? So that makes the "free will" argument kinda moot.

I think we will have free will in heaven so it does not make the argument moot. I think God has the ability to be evil and choses to not be evil.

 

[elman]

Actually it's your argument that is flawed, christians tell us about their god who wants us to think of him as our father, who loves us so much, but when something horrible happens they switch over to a deist god who sits back and watches.

Sorry you can't have it both ways, a loving father would have done something.

Answer this question for me, if you knew that your children were going to be murdered by a madman and you had the power to stop him before it happened... would you? Or would you let it happen because you didn't want to violate his "free will"?

One of the flaws in your view is that physical life is not the most important thing as you assume it to be.

 

[elman]

Non-sequiter.

It is god who has the power to stop men from murdering is it not?

It is God who gave men the power to not murder, is it not?

 

[Defcon]

Are you actually arguing that the murder of 32 people isn't horrific?

No, but I can explain why its wrong from my worldview. I am asking, from an atheistic worldview, what defines this event as 'wrong'? The presupposition is that it IS wrong - I'm asking what this presupposition is based on.

 

[m9lc]

No, but I can explain why its wrong from my worldview. I am asking, from an atheistic worldview, what defines this event as 'wrong'? The presupposition is that it IS wrong - I'm asking what this presupposition is based on.

First tell me this: Why is it wrong from your worldview? ("God said so" doesn't count as an answer)

I think we will have free will in heaven so it does not make the argument moot. I think God has the ability to be evil and choses to not be evil.

I already addressed this. For future reference, it's a big pet peeve of mine when I have to repeat myself for people.

But Christians on Earth do evil, too. If they choose to do evil on Earth, but don't when they're in Heaven, they've obviously lost their free will.

 

[Defcon]

First tell me this: Why is it wrong from your worldview? ("God said so" doesn't count as an answer)

Just because you don't accept God's Word as true does not preclude or dismiss it as the authority of my worldview - the Christian worldview. The Bible is my final, self-attesting authority and is therefore my presupposition.

The question is to you (or any who care to answer), what authority are you presupposing when you state this incident is 'wrong'?

 

[elman]

Just because you don't accept God's Word as true does not preclude or dismiss it as the authority of my worldview - the Christian worldview. The Bible is my final, self-attesting authority and is therefore my presupposition.

The question is to you (or any who care to answer), what authority are you presupposing when you state this incident is 'wrong'?

We all know what the shooter did was wrong. We don't need any authority. God has placed that sense of right and wrong in all of us. Even the shooter knew what he was doing was wrong, but he did it anyway.

 

[elman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by elman
I think we will have free will in heaven so it does not make the argument moot. I think God has the ability to be evil and choses to not be evil.

I already addressed this. For future reference, it's a big pet peeve of mine when I have to repeat myself for people.

So what are you saying about what I said? I was responding to what you said. Repeating yourself is not going to help. As I indicated I disagree with you.

 

[m9lc]

Just because you don't accept God's Word as true does not preclude or dismiss it as the authority of my worldview - the Christian worldview. The Bible is my final, self-attesting authority and is therefore my presupposition.

The question is to you (or any who care to answer), what authority are you presupposing when you state this incident is 'wrong'?

So the only reason you believe killing is wrong is because God said so?

I'm certain that you have another reason for why killing is wrong besides 'because God said so'. If you don't, then, well, that's kind of scary...

So what are you saying about what I said? I was responding to what you said. Repeating yourself is not going to help. As I indicated I disagree with you.

I quoted myself addressing that exact same point, earlier in the thread. Go look at the bottom of my last post, right above the signature. I'm guessing that you thought that was my signature and didn't read it.

Edit: Whatever, I'll repeat myself for you... you say that Christians in Heaven have free will, they just choose to do good. But Christians sin all the time on Earth. If they don't do it in Heaven, then there's obviously free will being lost.

 

[Morcova]

It is God who gave men the power to not murder, is it not?

Yes, yes we know that God created all evil in the world.

But he loves us so much......

 

[Morcova]

Just because you don't accept God's Word as true does not preclude or dismiss it as the authority of my worldview - the Christian worldview. The Bible is my final, self-attesting authority and is therefore my presupposition.

The question is to you (or any who care to answer), what authority are you presupposing when you state this incident is 'wrong'?

The only reason you can think of that murder is wrong is because god said it was?

If god never said that murder was wrong would you still think it was wrong?

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

Of course god has something to do with it, he watched while it happened and didn't lift a finger.

Explain that.

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

Yes, yes we know that God created all evil in the world.

But he loves us so much......

Evil is a unfortunate but necessary implementation of free will and even though evil or good is a option to a human being that option falls on the individual's own consciousness in choice and not that of God.

The choice lies in that of man alone.

 

[Defcon]

So the only reason you believe killing is wrong is because God said so?

I'm certain that you have another reason for why killing is wrong besides 'because God said so'. If you don't, then, well, that's kind of scary...

I could have swore this was the 'Philosphy' forum. How do you KNOW murder is wrong? Are you implying that all humans know this by intuition?

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth here - but this is a little ridiculous. What you are doing is presupposing an ethical standard - murder is wrong. How do you explain that you have this knowledge? Why do you believe that I should (by default) have this knowledge and assume everyone has it? Certainly all do not - throughout the history we have numerous, countless murders, genocides, etc. Let's take Hitler -he didn't believe he was wrong for the genocide of the Jews. So why is what he did MORALLY wrong? Because he lost the war and those who won said so? Or had he won, would he still have been wrong? My worldview explains this - you presuppose it without any attempt to defend your presupposition. By claiming a higher ground (in an attempt to make me sound ingorant) you further presuppose your presuppostion is common to all mankind. Yet, you haven't attempted any basis for your claims- should I ever expect an answer? Or are you satisfied with a worldview void of any philosophical relevance?

 

[Morcova]

Evil is a unfortunate but necessary implementation of free will and even though evil or good is a option to a human being that option falls on the individual's own consciousness in choice and not that of God.

The choice lies in that of man alone.

The problem is you believe in a all powerful god, so no the choice isn't just man's, god has the option to stop this and chose not to.

 

[Morcova]

Explain that.

Well from what I'm told here, god sees all and knows all, so he knew and saw that this was going to happen and he did nothing to stop it, just watched.

 

[Defcon]

The only reason you can think of that murder is wrong is because god said it was?

If god never said that murder was wrong would you still think it was wrong?

This is getting comical. Again - I have defined my presupposition. You assert your presupposition without defining it. You also presuppose everyone has your presupposition. What moral standard are you presupposing?

This is the essence of PHILOSPHY - metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics. Every worldview attempts to answer these to make sense of the human experience. You (and others) continue to presuppose ethical standards without explaining their authority, how they are derived, and why anyone knows this standard exist. Any argument to be made has to start there. You don't agree with my presupposition. Fine. Explain to me why I and everyone else knows murder is wrong from an atheistic worldview. It's that simple.

 

[ManOfTheAmish]

Well from what I'm told here, god sees all and knows all, so he knew and saw that this was going to happen and he did nothing to stop it, just watched.

Any intervention on God would ruin the freewill implemented on man by God.

There was also the possibility that the gunmen would throw down their gun in the application of free will for the choice can go two ways in man's own consciousness.

Again the choice is left upon man alone.

 

[Morcova]

This is getting comical. Again - I have defined my presupposition. You assert your presupposition without defining it. You also presuppose everyone has your presupposition. What moral standard are you presupposing?

This is the essence of PHILOSPHY - metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics. Every worldview attempts to answer these to make sense of the human experience. You (and others) continue to presuppose ethical standards without explaining their authority, how they are derived, and why anyone knows this standard exist. Any argument to be made has to start there. You don't agree with my presupposition. Fine. Explain to me why I and everyone else knows murder is wrong from an atheistic worldview. It's that simple.

Any particular reason you went way out of your way to not answer my question?

I'll ask it again.

Originally Posted by Morcova
The only reason you can think of that murder is wrong is because god said it was?

If god never said that murder was wrong would you still think it was wrong?