The Gap Theory...

Hiscosmicgoldfish3

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Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


I have changed my mind about this again. I think the text has greater meaning. The earth was an abyss - formless and empty, and there was water. The deep is the abyss.
I am no longer accepting of the Gap Theory.
 
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Hiscosmicgoldfish3

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I read it as day 1 starting "in the beginning".
Seems obvious even.
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Duzzant say it's a day, does it? - says 'in the beginning'.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

the first day is not until God said - 'let there be light', before the creation of the luminaries - day one is not mentioned until then.
 
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Halbhh

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am an old earth creationist - but how old?

Once we realize time passed during verse 1, before verse 2, then Earth can of course be however old evidence is able to show that it is, and any age found will of course fit Genesis chapter 1 perfectly.

Scripture is definitely not about trivial detail like like a mere number quantity of time duration that won't matter for us in any way, but instead is deeply more meaningful than that. Of course.

Dating ancient rocks uses science that is pretty straightforward -- the consistency of radioactive half lifes. It's not speculative stuff.

  • The oldest Moon rocks are from the lunar highlands and were formed when the early lunar crust was partially or entirely molten. These rocks, of which only a few were returned by the Apollo missions, have been dated by two methods at between 4.4-4.5 billion years in age.
  • The majority of the 70 well-dated meteorites have ages of 4.4-4.6 billion years. These meteorites, which are fragments of asteroids and represent some of the most primitive material in the solar system, have been dated by 5 independent radiometric dating methods.
USGS Geology and Geophysics
 
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St_Worm2

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...before the creation of the luminaries - day one is not mentioned until then.

The sun/stars were created on Day 4. What are the "luminaries" you mentioned above?

Thanks!

--David
 
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Halbhh

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The sun/stars were created on Day 4. What are the "luminaries" you mentioned above?

Thanks!

--David

Something to consider is that God gives visions (1 Samuel 3:1, but in this case He also gave narration which Moses quotes, so we read both the vision and the narration from God, both, in sequences. In the vision given by God to Moses, the sun moon and stars appear on day 4, and God gives an explanation I think. I think God gives narration to Moses (the quoted words) in order that Moses would understand something about the vision he is seeing, instead of nothing at all (usually visions are not fully understood without some help!). Now this vision happens not from the point of view like from a satellite, of course, but from the point of view of a person on the surface of Earth. Of course, this means that one can only see the moon, stars, sun when it's a clear day....

The sun, moon and stars were seen on day 4....but it's not clearly said that they did not exist before then. Rather some good reasons are given for why God designed everything as it is -- more: "and it was very good."

See? Ultimately His design was to create a wonderful place for us to live.

We do understand in science the Earth would be always cloudy for on the order of a billion years, and then mostly cloudy for yet another on the order of billion(s) of year(s), meaning day 4 actually fits the hypothesis from current science -- that the sun lighting the Earth on day 1 (creating the night/day cycle) still is not visible from the surface of Earth typically until very long after life has already begun on Earth. Because of this, the idea that science contradicts Genesis chapter 1 is actually based on not knowing enough science detail, and not reading the text more comprehensively (as part of the entire Bible as a whole), in my view.
 
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mark kennedy

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The gap is between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis 1. There was darkness and water - suggesting that the earth had been submerged and whatever source of light there had been, was out - the sun, moon and stars of the biblical age had not as yet been created.

All I seen in the OP I care to comment on is this. The earth was created along with the sun moon and stars in Genesis 1. On day 4 the sun, moon and stars were not 'created', they were 'set' in the heavens.
 
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mark kennedy

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The sun/stars were created on Day 4. What are the "luminaries" you mentioned above?

Thanks!

--David
Not created, set, check your favorite translation, it doesn't use the Hebrew word for created.
 
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Hiscosmicgoldfish3

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The sun/stars were created on Day 4. What are the "luminaries" you mentioned above?

Thanks!

--David
the luminaries are the sun, moon and stars.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

I have heard the theory of the 'cloudy sky from the perspective of the observer', before, and I don't buy it. Let there be light, is before the creation of the luminaries, imho, (in my humble opinion). The heliocentric cosmos must have the sun first and all that.
 
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mark kennedy

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the luminaries are the sun, moon and stars.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

I have heard the theory of the 'cloudy sky from the perspective of the observer', before, and I don't buy it. Let there be light, is before the creation of the luminaries, imho, (in my humble opinion). The heliocentric cosmos must have the sun first and all that.
That's what the narrative of Genesis 1 and the one in Job teaches. You doubt it, check the requisite proof texts.
 
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Not created, set, check your favorite translation, it doesn't use the Hebrew word for created.

Hi Brother, the NASB is my favorite, so this passage is from that translation.

Genesis 1
16 God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.
17 God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
18 and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good.
19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

The Hebrew word translated as "made" in the NASB is עָשָׂה [ʿasah], for which the principle meaning is: 1 to do, fashion, accomplish, make

It seems like more than just "set" in place (but perhaps I am wrong?).

--David
 
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Hiscosmicgoldfish3

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All I seen in the OP I care to comment on is this. The earth was created along with the sun moon and stars in Genesis 1. On day 4 the sun, moon and stars were not 'created', they were 'set' in the heavens.
no.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

made - let there be lights in the firmament. the firmament is a solid dome, and the lights are within the dome - what the dome is made of - don't know.
 
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St_Worm2

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the luminaries are the sun, moon and stars.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

I have heard the theory of the 'cloudy sky from the perspective of the observer', before, and I don't buy it. Let there be light, is before the creation of the luminaries, imho, (in my humble opinion). The heliocentric cosmos must have the sun first and all that.
The sun/moon/stars were all created on Day 4, not Day 1. There is another source of light to consider that comes immediately to mind however .. Revelation 22:5.
 
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Halbhh

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the luminaries are the sun, moon and stars.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

I have heard the theory of the 'cloudy sky from the perspective of the observer', before, and I don't buy it. Let there be light, is before the creation of the luminaries, imho, (in my humble opinion). The heliocentric cosmos must have the sun first and all that.

It's that the day/night cycle started on day 1 that lets us know that just like now, the Earth was rotating and the sun was shining, even if clouds would block the view of it. God had a plan.

He knew what He was doing, of course!

He's the boss, not us, and He didn't tell us everything in small detail, because He wants us to have faith, not mere easy proof.

Easy proof would preclude faith.
 
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Hiscosmicgoldfish3

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The sun/moon/stars were all created on Day 4, not Day 1. There is another source of light to consider that comes immediately to mind however .. Revelation 22:5.
yeah, I know - I agree, I didunt say that the luminaries were created on day one - it was some sort of divine light.
like I said - I am a Genesis 1 literal'ist - it is reliable and inspired and truthful.
 
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Halbhh

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The sun/moon/stars were all created on Day 4, not Day 1. There is another source of light to consider that comes immediately to mind however .. Revelation 22:5.

The New Heaven and New Earth will indeed be different than this one! :)

Hallelujah.

We don't have to know all small details to know what matters.

He created. His laws of nature are awesome and "very good".
 
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mark kennedy

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no.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

made - let there be lights in the firmament. the firmament is a solid dome, and the lights are within the dome.
But it doesn't say 'created', Moses uses a different word. At this point God is still working on the firmament, the heavens and earth are complete already.

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. (Gen. 1:2)
The Spirit is hovering over the face of the deep, that covered the face of the earth and darkness covered the face of the deep. That's not the same thing as the heavens being empty.

“Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’ (Job 38:8-11)
God is separating the seas from the dry land and the atmosphere above from the waters below. It's readily apparent from the text and makes a lot more sense then God creating for three days before he gets around to creating the sun, moon and stars. If that what was intended Moses would have used the Hebrew word for 'created'.

Some exegetical notes on the subject:

Created
The phrase, 'heaven and the earth', is a Hebrew expression meaning the universe. All we really get from this passage is that the cosmos and earth were created, 'in the beginning'. The perspective of creation week is from the surface of the earth, starting with the Spirit of God hovering over the deep (Gen. 1:2). In the chapter there are three words used for God's work in creation. The first is 'created' ('bara' H1254) a very precise term used only of God.

Create ‘bara’ (H1254) - 'This verb has profound theological significance, since it has only God as it’s subject. Only God can create in the sense implied by bara. The verb expresses the idea of creation out of nothing...(Vines Expository Dictionary)​

Made
It is used once to describe the creation of the universe (Gen 1:1), then again to describe the creation of life (Gen 1:21). Finally, in the closing verses, it is used three times for the creation of Adam and Eve (Gen. 1:27). The word translated, 'made' (asah 6213) , has a much broader range of meaning and is used to speak of the creation of the 'firmament' (Gen 1:7), the sun, moon and stars (Gen 1:16), procreation where offspring are made 'after his/their kind' (Gen 1:25) and as a general reference to creation in it's vast array (Gen 1:31).

Made ‘asah’(H6213) "A primitive root; to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application" (Gen 1:7, Gen 1:16, Gen 1:25, Gen 1:31, Isa. 41:20, 43:7, 45:7, 12, Amos 4:13). (Strong’s Dictionary). "The verb, which occurs over 2600 times in the Old Testament, is used as a synonym for “create” only about 60 times…only when asah is parallel to bara…can we be sure that it implies creation." (Vine 52).​

Set
Then there is a third term when God 'set' (nathan H2414), the lights of the sun, moon and stars so that their light is regularly visible from the surface of the earth. In this way the narrative shifts from the very precise word for 'created' to the more general 'made', and then the much broader use of 'set'.

Set (nathan H5414) A primitive root; to give, used with greatest latitude of application (Gen 1:17, Gen 9:13, Gen 18:8, Gen 30:40, Gen 41:41). Elsewhere translated ‘put’, ‘make’, ‘cause’, etc.​

The creation account has great significance for the rest of Scripture and how these terms are used in the original and their natural context is essential to really following the text as it was intended to be understood.

God created the universe (Gen. 1:1), life in general (1:21) and man in particular (Gen. 1:27). The term 'bara' is used once for original creation, once for the creation of life and three times for the creation of Adam and Eve. God also created Israel:

Especially striking is the use of bara in Isaiah 40-65. Out of 49 occurrences of the verb in the Old Testament, 20 are in these chapters. Because Isaiah writes prophetically to the Jews in Exile, he speaks of comfort based upon God’s past benefits and blessings to His people. Isaiah especially wants to show that, since Yahweh is the Creator, His is able to deliver His people from captivity. The God of Israel has created all things: “I have made the earth, and created (bara) man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens and all their host have I commanded” (Isa. 45:12). The gods of Babylon are impotent nonentities (Isa. 44:12-20; 46:1-7), and so Israel can expect God to triumph by effecting a new creation, (Isa.: 43:16-21; 65:17-25). (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: By W. E. Vine, Merrill Unger)​

This account of creation was literally written in stone, it's part of the Ten Commandments and the whole reason for the Sabbath.

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Gen. 20:11)​

God created life which is distinctly different from pagan myths, when tracing things back to original creation they invariably ended up with an elemental deity, earth, air, fire or water. This Babylonian myth indicates two water elementals, fresh and salt water apparently:

When in the height heaven was not named,
And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both
Their waters were mingled together,
And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;
When of the gods none had been called into being. (Enuma Elish, the Epic of Creation)​

Notice at creation the 'gods' didn't even exist.

Obviously the doctrine of creation is the heart of the emphasis but the text also describes creation as being largely a matter of separation. The light from darkness, waters above and below, land and sea. The word (בָּדַל badal H914) is used five times in the creation account then not used again until Exodus, 'The vail shall divide (H914) unto you between the holy place and the most holy' (Exo. 26:33). This is no coincidence, the idea of sanctification is literally the idea of separation, something set aside for God's exclusive use.
 
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1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


I used to think that the earth was completely formless, like the abyss, with waters somehow, somewhere. I have since changed my mind, and think that it was already existing, as 'moved upon the face of the waters', is more like above a dark sea.
(I have changed back to 'heavens' in the verse one, as they changed it to 'heaven').

A while back, I examined the text from the heliocentric viewpoint, as was then, and you cannot account for water being above and below the firmament, in that scenario.
I suppose it was not considered worthy to include an account of what was there before, or what was there before the creation of the heavens.
 
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Halbhh

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yeah, I know - I agree, I didunt say that the luminaries were created on day one - it was some sort of divine light.
like I said - I am a Genesis 1 literal'ist - it is reliable and inspired and truthful.

Me too. I believe 100% of all the words literally. But we are also both less than God, and do not have omniscience.

The reason God did not say "and Earth is 4.55 billion years old" is that would be easy proof of God, once we found evidence, and that would preclude, preempt faith.

You have knowledge instead of faith to know you have a car, because you can look and see it right there. Evidence precludes faith.

Faith is of course believing without proof (even those of us that do get personal proof must first have faith beforehand).

But from scripture we know that faith is required of us, and faith is a main goal and aim for us to arrive at.

So easy proof would contradict most all of the Bible, by precluding faith.

God did not explain the time gaps to Moses because we do not need to know them for faith. And if we did see the time gaps in scripture, and later science confirms them, that would preempt and thus prevent faith.

.
 
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1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


I used to think that the earth was completely formless, like the abyss, with waters somehow, somewhere. I have since changed my mind, and think that it was already existing, as 'moved upon the face of the waters', is more like above a dark sea.
(I have changed back to 'heavens' in the verse one, as they changed it to 'heaven').

A while back, I examined the text from the heliocentric viewpoint, as was then, and you cannot account for water being above and below the firmament, in that scenario.
I suppose it was not considered worthy to include an account of what was there before, or what was there before the creation of the heavens.

In a vision, the person receiving the vision does not understand all they see. In this case especially (thus God also added narration at points to give some partial understanding, the direct quotes you see with the quotation marks around them).

It's a reasonable guess to say it's what is being described here, but we know that in the theory of planetary formation, that the Earth would be accreting from matter swirling around in a big disk orbiting around the sun, the planets forming gradually by gravity pulling in matter from that disk, and that means that as Earth is building up, both on the surface and in the air and above the atmosphere orbiting the planet -- in all three places -- is water. Until later, after the accretion ends.

It's not important to know all small details, but it is a fact that people trying to claim science contradicts Genesis chapter 1 don't know enough science detail and are simply unaware of the science detail. If they knew more, they would have to admit that the science details and the text of Genesis 1 can fit together.

Now, only a small percentage will be aided by that information maybe. As a way to help them past the illusion that science contradicts Genesis. But even if 20,000 or 20 are helped, then it's worth pointing out.
 
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