The Gap Theory

RND · Jan 7, 2011

Bushido216 said:
...giant spaghetti monster...

Thank goodness for Marco Polo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqBa8b5BIqU&NR=1

gluadys · Jan 7, 2011

RND said:
If that were true societies around the world would be using various days for the week, Some 5, some 6, some 7.

In that the entire world has accepted a seven day week attests to it being better than any other.

No, it just attests to the cultural dominance of Euro-American society. The whole world is also using the CE/BCE division of years but that doesn't mean they accept Christianity. In fact the use of CE/BCE instead of AD/BC attests to the secularization of the Western calendar for international/interfaith use.

juvenissun · Jan 7, 2011

gluadys said:
No, it just attests to the cultural dominance of Euro-American society. The whole world is also using the CE/BCE division of years but that doesn't mean they accept Christianity. In fact the use of CE/BCE instead of AD/BC attests to the secularization of the Western calendar for international/interfaith use.

I still think somebody must have studied this matter more objectively. There has to be one system, out of so many, that fits the best to the some sort of natural cycle which makes the best synchronization to human activity. My guess is the 7-day week.

This might be another evidence of God's miraculous creation.

juvenissun · Jan 7, 2011

Common, Faith.man. Do something to pull this thread back.

Faith.Man · Jan 7, 2011

juvenissun said:
OK, I will try again:

1. God created Heavens and earth, perfect or not perfect.
2. The Gap (sin, judgement, death, etc)
3. God started to restore His original creation. It starts with light, etc.

During the Gap:

0. The reason for what happened during the Gap is not clear, but is not a problem.
1. The earth can be described as formless and void during the Gap.
2. Animals died and fossilized
3. Some animal species survived and we can see them today.

So, could I assume the main reason for what happened during the Gap is the Satan?

Also, could I say that the main function to have this Gap theory is to provide a reasonable explanation to the existence of fossils?

Genesis Account

1. God created the heavens and the earth. Anything more is speculation.
2. At some point in time, God pronounced judgment on version 1.0 of creation. Anything more is speculation.
3. After an indeterminate time (both of creation 1.0 and judgment 1.0), God set in motion the six days of creation 2.0 which is recorded in Genesis 1:3 from the viewpoint of the Holy Spirit who was hovering over the surface of the deep.

During the Gap

0. Not important and not necessary for our salvation. Enough scripture is available to us that want to search deeper into the work of God.
1. State of earth during judgment.
2. Obviously, but once again, belief is not necessary for our salvation.
3. I'm not a naturalist. I don't know what survived and what didn't. I think roaches can be traced back but what else, I don't know.

Assumptions

One cannot be dogmatic about it, but it appears that angels were involved and as part of the judgment, some angels were imprisoned.

2 Peters 2:4 - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; [NASB]

What is the purpose of the Gap Theory? The Gap Theory predates Darwinism, and much of archeology, so it's purpose is not to make sense of fossils.

Monologue: The foolishness of man tries to make God into some type of magician or sorcerer. But in reality, God created the sciences that man is trying to understand. The deeper we dig into science, any field of science (pick one), the more intricate the tapestry God has wove to showcase his power and His attention to detail.

Before doing military work, I had the pleasure of working for a company making silicon wafers. We had a process were we damaged the backside of silicon wafers so they would getter the discontinuities providing a defect-free front surface for future circuitry. I had many opportunities to use an electronic microscope to study the backside damage surface to see the discontinuities. It was amazing. It was like looking at an alien landscape. And as deep as we are able to penetrate the intricacies of molecular structure and the forces that hold them together, the more mysteries we find. Our God is awesome.

Bushido216 · Jan 7, 2011

RND said:
If that were true societies around the world would be using various days for the week, Some 5, some 6, some 7.

In that the entire world has accepted a seven day week attests to it being better than any other.

The entire world at one point thought that the planet was flat. I fail to see your point, here.

juvenissun · Jan 8, 2011

Faith.Man said:
What is the purpose of the Gap Theory? The Gap Theory predates Darwinism, and much of archeology, so it's purpose is not to make sense of fossils.

OK, thank you. I might have the idea.

Now, please consider this question:

If there were no Gap theory, how would Christian theology about the origin problem become more difficult?

I may suggest two: 1. the formless and the void earth is harder to understand, and 2. the fossil record will be hard to explain.

Is there any other major problem?

Faith.Man · Jan 9, 2011

juvenissun said:
OK, thank you. I might have the idea.

Now, please consider this question:

If there were no Gap theory, how would Christian theology about the origin problem become more difficult?

I may suggest two: 1. the formless and the void earth is harder to understand, and 2. the fossil record will be hard to explain.

Is there any other major problem?

Hypotheticals have no answer that can be proven. It is both useless to ask and more so to answer. Have you read the about the Gap Theory from the resources I've already pointed you to? Do you just want to argue or what?

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 - He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 - All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. [NASB]

John 1:3 clearly indicates that God existed before anything in the universe. We can also clearly see that this verse says the universe had a beginning. Believing the universe always existed is an unscriptural.

Another resource I came across regarding the Gap Theory is given below:

The Bible, Genesis & Geology

Dr. David Reagan also discusses the Gap Theory on the following site:

Gap Theory of Genesis Creation | Learn The Bible

juvenissun · Jan 9, 2011

Faith.Man said:
Hypotheticals have no answer that can be proven. It is both useless to ask and more so to answer. Have you read the about the Gap Theory from the resources I've already pointed you to? Do you just want to argue or what?

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 - He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 - All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. [NASB]

John 1:3 clearly indicates that God existed before anything in the universe. We can also clearly see that this verse says the universe had a beginning. Believing the universe always existed is an unscriptural.

Another resource I came across regarding the Gap Theory is given below:

The Bible, Genesis & Geology

Dr. David Reagan also discusses the Gap Theory on the following site:

Gap Theory of Genesis Creation | Learn The Bible

Hey, if you don't want to answer, then just don't. I am not arguing (not yet). My question is simple, basic and genuine. It does not take any reading to explain (and I won't bother to read, they are 99% redundant.). All I need is a few simple, to the point, words. I even provided some possible answers to my own question. All you need to say is: yes/no, and/or may be one or two simple comments.

Faith.Man · Jan 9, 2011

juvenissun said:
Hey, if you don't want to answer, then just don't. I am not arguing (not yet). My question is simple, basic and genuine. It does not take any reading to explain (and I won't bother to read, they are 99% redundant.). All I need is a few simple, to the point, words. I even provided some possible answers to my own question. All you need to say is: yes/no, and/or may be one or two simple comments.

I cannot make you read anything you either don't want to or are afraid to. I have either answered directly or provided answers to your questions in the websites I've linked to. If you choose not to avail yourself of these resources and answers to your questions, then we are at an impasse. There's no point in continuing this conversation.

cigarshaped · Jul 9, 2011

RND said:
.. keep in mind that the Hebrew month was based ..on ..a monthly one, based on the phase of the moon, and that every few years a 13th month was added in to compensate for the time discrepancy. Neither did the Hebrews name days. It was merely 5th day to the sabbath, 3rd day to the sabbath, etc. That's why the Hebrews marked days beginning from sunset to sunset as well.

On a slight diversion, I know a group investigating the Saturnian Myth. They suggest Saturn formed an original centre to our planetary system, now a brown dwarf - once a red giant 'star'. This utopian origin, within the cosy beneficial atmosphere, allowed for much lower gravity, a beneficial light and precipitation [Gen 2:6] environment. Hence Sabbath/ Saturn's day. As a result our eyes were designed with higher sensitivity to Green, plants preferentially seek to absorb Red/ Blue (UV) spectrum and thus appear to reflect green.

This early Creation ran on much shorter day length, giving rise to incredibly high apparent ages to the patriarchs. A good thing could not last and humanity paid the price for its disobedience by being ejected from Saturn's favourable climate into the bleak, harsh situation in which we now find ourselves namely the Sun's system. Higher energy star means higher gravity means distant planets. Part of the transfer was Noah's universal Flood that signalled the end of Saturnian precipitation in favour of clouds and rain, etc thus the 'myth' of the rainbow.

Where the GAP fits into this scenario is probably during the wrench between earlier and current systems. Don't forget we probably never saw stars [Gen 1:14] until released from the Purple zone. We would have been extremely familiar with the other planets eg Venus and Mars as they would have been proportionally closer (gods) due to the lower gravity. Moses, being educated in Egyption astronomy, would probably have been well aware of the cosmic changes, being careful not to record too much detail. Humanity had to be weaned off planet worship in favour of the one True God.

All this is 4-6000 BC (?), but humanity has surely occupied Earth for a while - witness the amazing Turkish 12000 yr old stonework at Gobekli Tepe.

Jazer · Jul 12, 2011

juvenissun said:
If there were no Gap theory, how would Christian theology about the origin problem become more difficult?

The Gap theory in the beginning was for people that did not want to take the time to study science. They say they are to busy with their Bible study. With the GAP theory they can say whatever science wants to put into the Gap is ok with them so they do not have to answer any questions about it.

Jazer · Jul 12, 2011

cigarshaped said:
All this is 4-6000 BC (?), but humanity has surely occupied Earth for a while - witness the amazing Turkish 12000 yr old stonework at Gobekli Tepe.

The Bible begins 12,982 years ago. This we know is the beginning of the Neolithic age. Adam and Eve were in the Garden in Eden 5,982 years ago on the eighth day.

Keachian · Jul 12, 2011

Jazer said:
The Bible begins 12,982 years ago. This we know is the beginning of the Neolithic age. Adam and Eve were in the Garden in Eden 5,982 years ago on the eighth day.

Where does it say this? I think you're inserting things into the text/doing special backflips to make up for this.

cigarshaped · Jul 13, 2011

I agree with progmonk, we cannot take any dating system literallly; the measure of years of life, carbon dating and geological ages. Nothing can be assumed to be a constant. As I mentioned above the human lifespan has not significantly reduced from the days of the patriarchs. Rather the Earth's orbit has increased to give longer years. How else do we explain the Roman 10month calendar (DECember = 10th month)?

theFijian · Jul 13, 2011

cigarshaped said:
I agree with progmonk, we cannot take any dating system literallly; the measure of years of life, carbon dating and geological ages. Nothing can be assumed to be a constant. As I mentioned above the human lifespan has not significantly reduced from the days of the patriarchs. Rather the Earth's orbit has increased to give longer years. How else do we explain the Roman 10month calendar (DECember = 10th month)?

They got the lunar year wrong, that's how we explain it.

gluadys · Jul 13, 2011

theFijian said:
They got the lunar year wrong, that's how we explain it.

Actually, they originally took the vernal equinox, in March, to be the New Year and numbered the months from there.

When they changed the New Year to January, they didn't change the names of the months.

Beginning the New Year at the spring equinox was a tradition that is still observed in much of the Middle East and was common in northern Europe up to the 18th century. One finds documents from the time of transition in which dates from January till March are listed as different years and marked as OS or NS (old style/new style) depending on which convention the writer is using.

Of course, the really old British tradition was to celebrate New Year on November 1 after all the harvest had been gathered in and the fall plowing completed. That's the origin of Hallowe'en. It used to be New Year's Eve.

The bible lists two new years: a civil one in spring and a religious one in the fall--the latter still observed among Jews as Rosh Hashana.

cigarshaped · Jul 13, 2011

Without getting too bogged down in the Calendar systems there is evidence, as theFijian hints, that months were part of the problem. Around 1300BC the Israelites had an almost exact 30 day lunar month (Deut 34:8, 21:13, Num 20:29) and Genesis lists exactly 150 days between 17th day of 2nd month to 17th day of 7th month. But the length did not remain constant.

Many other cultures accurately measured 360 day years in various ways: Babylonian zodiac had 36 decans (10day periods), Babylon's walls were 360 furlongs, circle was divided into 360 degrees (sun's circuit around Earth). Assyrian 360 days, used monthly crescent to crescent. Egypt New Kingdom, Greece, China, and Peru had 12 months of 30 days.

Then there seems to be a disturbance in Lunar orbit around 8th Century BC, which caused Romulus to found the Roman calendar on 9 day week, thus 10 x 36 day month. Not long after, Numa added January and February to precede the original Martian year. This major alteration must have coincided with the Earth slowing to 3651/4 days as many cultures struggled to rearrange their calendars from 360day cycles.

In the 7thcenturyBC 5 days were added by Babylon, Egypt, Persia, Hindu, and Peruvians. China calculated 51/4 extra days in Khe-ying period, and tried to split sphere into 3651/4 degrees. Meanwhile the Jews had to make alterations to Solomon's Temple as the alignment used in Hezekiah's time for Sukkoth changed. The New Year autumnal equinox moved from the 10th day of 7th month to the 1st day.

So I'm saying the solar system has not been constant and dating methods cannot assume our current state of affairs, prior to 700BC. Could other disturbances in God's handiwork be responsible for previous 'Gap' episodes. The Creator has his reasons to change things!

gluadys · Jul 13, 2011

cigarshaped said:
Without getting too bogged down in the Calendar systems there is evidence, as theFijian hints, that months were part of the problem.

Ah, yes, calculating the length of the month and of the year enters into things too, but its not the reason for the Romans--and us--having the ninth to twelfth months of the year labelled as the seventh to the tenth months.

Many problems with getting accuracy can be attributed to the limitations of measuring tools at the time. Others come from assuming heavenly motions to be circular rather than elliptical as is actually the case. I don't know how wedded the Hebrews or Babylonians were to that idea, but it was taken for granted by the Greeks and maybe by earlier peoples too.

Around 1300BC the Israelites had an almost exact 30 day lunar month (Deut 34:8, 21:13, Num 20:29) and Genesis lists exactly 150 days between 17th day of 2nd month to 17th day of 7th month. But the length did not remain constant.

Many other cultures accurately measured 360 day years in various ways: Babylonian zodiac had 36 decans (10day periods), Babylon's walls were 360 furlongs, circle was divided into 360 degrees (sun's circuit around Earth). Assyrian 360 days, used monthly crescent to crescent. Egypt New Kingdom, Greece, China, and Peru had 12 months of 30 days.

Then there seems to be a disturbance in Lunar orbit around 8th Century BC, which caused Romulus to found the Roman calendar on 9 day week, thus 10 x 36 day month. Not long after, Numa added January and February to precede the original Martian year. This major alteration must have coincided with the Earth slowing to 3651/4 days as many cultures struggled to rearrange their calendars from 360day cycles.

In the 7thcenturyBC 5 days were added by Babylon, Egypt, Persia, Hindu, and Peruvians. China calculated 51/4 extra days in Khe-ying period, and tried to split sphere into 3651/4 degrees. Meanwhile the Jews had to make alterations to Solomon's Temple as the alignment used in Hezekiah's time for Sukkoth changed. The New Year autumnal equinox moved from the 10th day of 7th month to the 1st day.

So I'm saying the solar system has not been constant and dating methods cannot assume our current state of affairs, prior to 700BC. Could other disturbances in God's handiwork be responsible for previous 'Gap' episodes. The Creator has his reasons to change things!

Solar system has probably been constant. Inaccurate calendars lead to discrepancies between the expectation of the calendar and the actual event. But it can still take quite some time both to devise a more accurate calendar and to get it accepted for use. When England changed from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian, eleven days had to be cut from the calendar and there were riots among labourers who thought this meant their wages would be cut by eleven days.

Numa changed the names of the months to January and February and moved the new year to the Kalends of Janus, but he did not add 60 days to the year--just rearranged which would be counted as the first day of the year.

hagiazo7 · Aug 8, 2011

Responding to post #1 by Faith.Man

Good post, I don't think it is a theory though.

Even without relying on other verses of the Bible the hebrew of Genesis 1:2 itself says that the earth hayah tohu va bohu, "became" waste and ruin. It can also be translated "became" desolate and ruin.

hayah, a prime root: to exist, ie. be or become, come to pass.

tohu, from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), ie. desert; figuratively a worthless thing.

bohu, from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, ie. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin.

2 Peter 3:5,6 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished."

Jeremiah 4:23, "I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form (tohu, waste) and void (bohu, ruin): and the heavens, and they had no light."

This was not Noah's flood for it you continue reading in verse 25, it says "and lo, there was no man."

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