The "Free Will" Dilemma

[janxharris]

You haven't answered my question. This verse says nothing about changing their unrepentant hearts.

However, this may help you:

"But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear." (Deu 29:4)

Who provides the means to understand Janx? Show me the prevenient grace given to ALL men.

Do you not accept that the Holy Spirit can be resisted?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Understand what? See or hear what?

Romans 2:14,15; Romans 1:18 onwards; John 16:8; Acts 7:51

Show me that the Holy Spirit does not come to all men. Why would ever consider that God would withhold himself from some men? That would be unfair wouldn't it?

"But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear." (Deu 29:4)

Janx: "Understand what? See or hear what?"

Ironic, given the context.

I can't prove a negative. You show me that the Holy Spirit DOES come to all men, and that He brings a new heart for each with Him. As for God withholding Himself, I've given one example already but I've added another one of many to make the point:

"But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear." (Deu 29:4)

"And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven." (Mk 4:10-12)

Unfair or biblical Janx?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Do you not accept that the Holy Spirit can be resisted?

You still haven't answered my question.

 

[janxharris]

You still haven't answered my question.

Okay, and I will try to answer it. Whilst I do, please do consider my question:

Do you not accept that the Holy Spirit can be resisted?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Okay, and I will try to answer it. Whilst I do, please do consider my question:

Do you not accept that the Holy Spirit can be resisted?

Answer my question without further stalling and I'll answer yours the moment I see your answer.

Also would you like to address the post where I quoted two examples of the LORD and the Lord withholding themselves?

 

[janxharris]

"But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear." (Deu 29:4)

Janx: "Understand what? See or hear what?"

Ironic, given the context.

Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Their hearts and ears were still uncircumcised (not purified) because they resisted the Holy Spirit. Surely this explains what God withholds?

I can't prove a negative. You show me that the Holy Spirit DOES come to all men, and that He brings a new heart for each with Him.

Well, as Luke says, He (the Holy Spirit) came to the Sanhedrin and all their ancestors. Should we leave anyone out? Again, I say, that would be showing favouritism. The new heart is available if we seek God - if we hear and learn (Jn 6:45).

As for God withholding Himself, I've given one example already but I've added another one of many to make the point:

"But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear." (Deu 29:4)

"And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven." (Mk 4:10-12)

Unfair or biblical Janx?

I would say that that was a judgement.

Mark 3:22-30
And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.” So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.” He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”

Sorry, I run out of time to respond fully...

 

[crimsonleaf]

Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Their hearts and ears were still uncircumcised (not purified) because they resisted the Holy Spirit. Surely this explains what God withholds?

You have a habit of doing this Janx; finding one scripture tough to answer then providing another one and answering it yourself. You did this when we were discussing Ezekiel 36 and you introduced Deuteronomy 30. Please address the scripture I provided.

Well, as Luke says, He (the Holy Spirit) came to the Sanhedrin and all their ancestors. Should we leave anyone out? Again, I say, that would be showing favouritism. The new heart is available if we seek God - if we hear and learn (Jn 6:45).

God shows choice (favouritism may be the wrong word) throughout Scripture, from Abraham and Isaac through Jacob to the whole of His chosen race, the Jews, but that's an aside. Is your interpretation of Luke's comment above your explanation of prevenient grace?

I would say that that was a judgement.

I gave two examples, so the judgement you speak of was by whom, upon who, and for what?

Mark 3:22-30
And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.” So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.” He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”

Sorry, I run out of time to respond fully...

OK, I'll wait. But be prepared to explain the relevance of this quote from Mark, because I haven't got a clue why you've introduced it within the context of our discussion.

 

[OzSpen]

Verse 31 goes on to say that God has given "all men the assurance that He has raised Jesus from the dead."

If "all" means what you say it means, then explain how some men who had heard of the resurrection of Christ denied it.

Furthermore, there were Gentiles in Paul's time who had never heard of Jesus Christ and His resurection. Yet it says that God has given "all men" the assurance of it.

It is very clear, unless one has an agenda to redefine ALL in a a priori fashion to agree with one's theology.

They deny the resurrection for similar reasons why some today deny that Jesus was bodily raised from the dead. Read the works of John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar and he will tell you that the resurrection of Jesus was an apparition. The evidence for all to read or hear does not guarantee that people receive it.

Oz

 

[Hammster]

Please explain to this person how he committed eisegesis. Saying that he did it without providing the evidence proves nothing. You have not demonstrated that this is what he did.

Oz

Eisegesis. an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.

 

[Hammster]

All people may well be instructed, just as all children might be taught at school; it doesn't prevent the possibility that some children might have learnt just about nothing when they leave.

The 'we' of:
while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

might only refer to believers and those that might believe.

Yep. I'm sure that you can stretch it and squeeze it to fit your theology. Or you could just take it at face value.

 

[Hammster]

Can't we just talk about the Holy Spirit?

Sure, if you want to change the subject to avoid talking of prevenient grace.

 

[Hammster]

As you have said, the HS is a Him, which men resist.

You do agree that the HS is resisted don't you?

Sure, the Holy Spirit is resisted. But is He the equivalent of prevenient grace?

 

[sdowney717]

Satan, demons, fallen angels, evil spirits also resists the Holy Spirit of God.

Those who have Satan as their father, are in league with Satan and also naturally resist God and His moves.

Resistance ultimately is futile, the end of the Book is clear.

This is a long thread!

I am so glad He has had mercy on me. Grace is God's choice to be merciful to me a sinner and bring me to Himself when I had no desire to do this or could even know anything about Him at all by myself.

John 6

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[c] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus[d] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”

(For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)

65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Jesus makes an interesting statement here
45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

All who are taught by God the Father, comes to Jesus,
They absolutely do, that is ALL of them.
Everyone that the Father draws comes to Jesus.
Since some do not come, this means they are not taught by God to come to Jesus.
They are not drawn by the Father to Christ.
They will never come to Jesus and be saved, but if they could come on their own to Jesus they would be saved.
However, Jesus says this is not possible.

The being drawn by the Father is not resistible ultimately. Perhaps for a time we seem to resist this, but the end is clearly determined.

For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance.
AND
God has enclosed (caught or shut up like fish in a net) all men into disobedience, that He might have mercy on all men.

It is His mercy, His choice that saves us.

Titus 3
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Philippians 1
27 Only let your manner of life be worthy[h] of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God.

29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, 30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.

 

[guuila]

This comment demonstrates that you don't know what you are talking about.

Oz

Care to teach me?

 

[guuila]

Another red herring.

You're almost there!

Can prevenient grace be resisted? Go ahead and tell me how this demonstrates that I don't understand prevenient grace. - Check. You've done that.

Then accuse me of committing some logical fallacy without any explanation. - Check. You've done that.

Then once you do that, it would be cool if you could actually answer the question for once. It's a yes or no question. Shouldn't take you long to answer

Now if you could only answer the question!

 

[guuila]

Yes.

At least you're honest. You're the difference between you and the unbeliever. Not God.

 

[guuila]

Why do I have to define it?

It would be nice to know what you think it means. Is that an unreasonable request?

 

[guuila]

This is a misrepresentation griff.

Acts 7:51

You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. (Acts 7:51 ESV)

You've been asked this a number of times, but are you equating prevenient grace with the 3rd person of the Trinity? Nobody is asking you if the Holy Spirit can be resisted. We're asking you if prevenient grace can be resisted.

 

[OzSpen]

Eisegesis. an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text.

Tell him exactly what the eisegesis is that he has stated. Your general response lacks specifics of how he violated by using eisegesis.

 

[guuila]

Tell him exactly what the eisegesis is that he has stated. Your general response lacks specifics of how he violated by using eisegesis.

Tell me exactly what the red herring is that I have stated earlier. Your general response lacks specifics of how I violated by using a red herring.