The "Free Will" Dilemma

[OzSpen]

No kidding? Why do you think I'm asking you, the one who believes in prevenient grace?

Why can't you answer questions without ad hominems? Aren't you the logical fallacy expert? Answer the question. Or maybe you don't even know the answer?

No ad hominems here with name calling.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz is not a universalist so I don't see how that can be true. Perhaps oz will clarify.

Nowhere anywhere on this Forum have I ever supported the heretical doctrine of universalism that all people will be saved.

I have no idea why someone would invent that false view of my evenagelical theology.

Oz

 

[crimsonleaf]

Nice try but no cigars. Prevenient grace is exactly as the Scriptures describe in Titus 2:11,

It has nothing whatsoever to do with being the equivalent of dragging anyone. ALL PEOPLE means ALL PEOPLE in Titus 2:11 and God's prevenient grace has appeared to ALL PEOPLE. When will you ever get it that this has nothing to do with your understanding of irresistible grace?

Oz

You mean YOUR understanding of Irresistible Grace, not mine. My understanding is that God frees man's corrupt will and enables him to turn to God. I've said it countless times and pointed out that the majority of Reformed folk view it that way. You're just building the usual Calvinist Aunt Sally and trying to knock it down.

So our understanding of the Effectual Call matches your description of prevenient grace exactly:

"God takes the initiative in all salvation. We know that prevenient grace is not a violation of free will because God has stated it clearly what He has done:
This means that the human will is freed in relation to salvation. It is not a violation of free will. We know that the will has been freed in relation to salvation because it is implied in the exhortations:

• to turn to God. (Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; 18:32; Joel 2:13-14; Matt 18:3; and Acts 3:19;
• to repent (1 Kings 8:47; Matt 3:2; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30), and
• to believe (2 Chron 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 John 3:23."

You have based your response on what you say I believe rather than what I say I believe. That's a straw man, unless you want to pretend it's a red herring in which case either will do. You're wrong either way. I repeat my question from the same post:

If your Prevenient Grace allows man to comprehend God fully, and recognise the depths of his own sin, the consequences of it and the saving power of God, are you trying to tell us there is a man who has ever lived who would opt for eternal torment over the wonders of the Creator?

An answer to this at least would be appreciated.

Next, you introduce the concept of "dragging". Another straw man. No Calvinist ever believes that anyone is dragged into heaven, and to say we do is to offer the most puerile and ill-educated argument against Irresistible or Effectual Grace.

Lastly, your understanding of Titus 2:11 is way off. All Calvinists accept that God has, in His Grace, announced Himself to the world, through Scripture and nature. However, this isn't the same as freeing a man's mind to accept salvation. It is done so that no man can offer an excuse. Only the Effectual Call, a new heart, can finally free a man's mind.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Janx said of prevenient grace 'It's resistible' and you have the audacity to falsely represent what I wrote. I have never EVER said that prevenient grace is NOT resistible. You again distort and invent what I did not write. Please quit your misrepresentation of my position.

As there are multiple millions of people in the world and have been throughout human history who have not received Christ's salvation, will you please get my understanding as clear as crystal: Prevenient grace IS resistible, even though it HAS APPEARED to all people. That's Bible! And it's found in Titus 2:11.

Oz

OK, unbunch your panties. I apologise if I've misrepresented your view (Oh, the AUDACITY Mr Darcy). Now will you address my posts and apologise for misrepresenting mine (Dragging people into heaven etc. etc. ad infinitum)?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Nowhere anywhere on this Forum have I ever supported the heretical doctrine of universalism that all people will be saved.

I have no idea why someone would invent that false view of my evenagelical theology.

Oz

Well you DO support the view that Titus 2:11 and onward represents Grace to the whole world don't you?

Let's look at what it goes on to say:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Tit 2:12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Oz, is the whole world in training to renounce worldly passions; has salvation come to all people (or just the offer of salvation maybe, which seems to be how you've rewritten it); are we training to live godly upright lives in the present age, waiting for the blessed hope of Christ's return?

Do you believe that salvation is for all people as you'd have Paul say here, or might there be another explanation?

 

[OzSpen]

You mean YOUR understanding of Irresistible Grace, not mine. My understanding is that God frees man's corrupt will and enables him to turn to God. I've said it countless times and pointed out that the majority of Reformed folk view it that way. You're just building the usual Calvinist Aunt Sally and trying to knock it down.

So our understanding of the Effectual Call matches your description of prevenient grace exactly:

"God takes the initiative in all salvation. We know that prevenient grace is not a violation of free will because God has stated it clearly what He has done:
This means that the human will is freed in relation to salvation. It is not a violation of free will. We know that the will has been freed in relation to salvation because it is implied in the exhortations:

• to turn to God. (Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; 18:32; Joel 2:13-14; Matt 18:3; and Acts 3:19;
• to repent (1 Kings 8:47; Matt 3:2; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30), and
• to believe (2 Chron 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 John 3:23."

You have based your response on what you say I believe rather than what I say I believe. That's a straw man, unless you want to pretend it's a red herring in which case either will do. You're wrong either way. I repeat my question from the same post:

If your Prevenient Grace allows man to comprehend God fully, and recognise the depths of his own sin, the consequences of it and the saving power of God, are you trying to tell us there is a man who has ever lived who would opt for eternal torment over the wonders of the Creator?

An answer to this at least would be appreciated.

Next, you introduce the concept of "dragging". Another straw man. No Calvinist ever believes that anyone is dragged into heaven, and to say we do is to offer the most puerile and ill-educated argument against Irresistible or Effectual Grace.

Lastly, your understanding of Titus 2:11 is way off. All Calvinists accept that God has, in His Grace, announced Himself to the world, through Scripture and nature. However, this isn't the same as freeing a man's mind to accept salvation. It is done so that no man can offer an excuse. Only the Effectual Call, a new heart, can finally free a man's mind.

It is not my understanding. I supplied you and others with theologian, Henry Thiessen's understanding of irresistible grace, with which I agree.

You're just building the usual Calvinist Aunt Sally and trying to knock it down.

When will you quit falsely misrepresenting what I write?

Titus 2:11 does NOT state your Calvinistic understanding that you try to attribute to 'all Calvinists', that God 'announced Himself to the world'.

What did God do? Greek exegete, Gordon Fee, in his commentary on 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus (1988. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, p. 194) wrote:

In the Greek text all of verses 11-14 form a single sentence of which the grace of God stands as the grammatical subject. But contrary to the NIV (and KJV), Paul does not say that this grace appeared to all men; rather, as almost all other translations have it, and as both Paul's word order and the usage in 1 Timothy 2:3-6 demand it, what has appeared (see disc. on 1 Tim 6:14; epiphaneia) is grace from God that offers salvation to all people (emphasis in original).

Sincerely, Oz

 

[janxharris]

This is a place for debate. When someone answers "Because it is" to a question they should be challenged on their response. There is a process for you to follow if you're unhappy with that.

I didn't have an issue with "Because it is" - rather it was the unnecessary:

as I taught my kids many moons ago

 

[crimsonleaf]

I didn't have an issue with "Because it is" - rather it was the unnecessary:

as I taught my kids many moons ago

Good for you. It's always good to have an unasked for moral filter for my responses. I'll run things past you first in future.

Actually Janx, I won't.

 

[OzSpen]

Well you DO support the view that Titus 2:11 and onward represents Grace to the whole world don't you?

Let's look at what it goes on to say:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Tit 2:12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Oz, is the whole world in training to renounce worldly passions; has salvation come to all people (or just the offer of salvation maybe, which seems to be how you've rewritten it); are we training to live godly upright lives in the present age, waiting for the blessed hope of Christ's return?

Do you believe that salvation is for all people as you'd have Paul say here, or might there be another explanation?

Straw man.

 

[janxharris]

No Janx, pointing out the same fact over and over like a broken record is frustrating. Your answer here is equally frustrating as once again you've shown that you not only don't understand what I'm saying, but you clearly don't understand what you are saying.

Firstly, I have not said is that it's nothing about the person. You even quoted me saying that it's nothing we consciously do. I even emboldened it so you wouldn't make the error you just have. So to be clear again - God chooses according to His own counsel and good pleasure; we don't know the reasons for His choice, but we can be confident He has reasons, simply because He's God. This means His choices aren't arbitrary, but unless we know the mind of God (which Scripture says we most definitely can not) then we probably never will know exactly what those reasons are.

However, under the Arminian system, salvation is entirely arbitrary. God throws out the ol' prevenient fishing line and waits to see who bites.

God to Mrs God: "I nearly caught me a Dawkins today, but the son of a gun got away"
Mrs God to God: "You say that every day dear, better LUCK tomorrow".

PS. I know there isn't a Mrs God.

Would you say a bit more about the significance of what we do unconsciously? Perhaps an example?

 

[crimsonleaf]

Would you say a bit more about the significance of what we do unconsciously? Perhaps an example?

No, because I'd be wasting my time. Perhaps only albinos will go to heaven, or ginger haired people. I don't know, and I've made it pretty clear I don't.

The bible says it is down to God's opinion. That'll do for me.

 

[crimsonleaf]

Straw man.

OK, you have no answer. I'll accept that.

 

[janxharris]

No, because I'd be wasting my time. Perhaps only albinos will go to heaven, or ginger haired people. I don't know, and I've made it pretty clear I don't.

The bible says it is down to God's opinion. That'll do for me.

So why have you stressed that what we do unconsciously is considered? Are you referring to Genesis 50:20?

The bible clearly shows that we make a choice that is not predetermined.

 

[crimsonleaf]

It is not my understanding. I supplied you and others with theologian, Henry Thiessen's understanding of irresistible grace, with which I agree.

When will you quit falsely misrepresenting what I write?

So you refuse to address my question? I want your view, and I want to see how it differs from my understanding. Rather than have me trawl through your posts, can you republish the link or quote from Thiessen if you cannot answer yourself.

Titus 2:11 does NOT state your Calvinistic understanding that you try to attribute to 'all Calvinists', that God 'announced Himself to the world'.

I didn't say it did. I said that we accept common grace, and that's ALL Calvinists. Nowhere have you shown that scripture says that prevenient grace either exists or grants a new heart.

What did God do? Greek exegete, Gordon Fee, in his commentary on 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus (1988. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, p. 194) wrote:
Sincerely, Oz

Fee is saying that the grace of God offers salvation to all men. We know that. Equally we confirm that this says nothing about granting the new heart necessary for acceptance. In fact, you've totally made that bit up.

 

[crimsonleaf]

So why have you stressed that what we do unconsciously is considered? Are you referring to Genesis 50:20?

The bible clearly shows that we make a choice that is not predetermined.

I haven't stressed that what we do unconsciously is considered. You misunderstand the sentence. I stress that we don't know the basis for God's decision, but we do know we can't consciously affect it. That's very different.

God's decision is based upon something we don't know about but He does. We just don't believe that our names are arbitrarily selected because that doesn't smack of a purposeful, omniscient, omnipotent God.

 

[janxharris]

...Nowhere have you shown that scripture says that prevenient grace either exists or ...

Acts 7:51 (Stephen to the Sanhedrin)
You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

 

[crimsonleaf]

Acts 7:51 (Stephen to the Sanhedrin)
You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Your point?

 

[janxharris]

Your point?

The Holy Spirit makes an appeal to all men.

 

[crimsonleaf]

The Holy Spirit makes an appeal to all men.

So I've said several times on this thread alone. Does He give all men a new heart?

 

[janxharris]

I haven't stressed that what we do unconsciously is considered. You misunderstand the sentence. I stress that we don't know the basis for God's decision, but we do know we can't consciously affect it. That's very different.

God's decision is based upon something we don't know about but He does. We just don't believe that our names are arbitrarily selected because that doesn't smack of a purposeful, omniscient, omnipotent God.

Arbitrary: subject to individual will or judgement without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion.

I would say that we do unconsciously doesn't really represent what we are as individuals.

Isaiah 45:18,19
For this is what the Lord says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: “I am the Lord, and there is no other. I have not spoken in secret, from somewhere in a land of darkness; I have not said to Jacob’s descendants, ‘Seek me in vain.’ I, the Lord, speak the truth; I declare what is right.

Surely, it must be an that there is an overlap of Calvinism and Arminianism where the the truth of what we have been discussion is found? I fully admit that Arminianism has issues too.