• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Fourth Cup

yedida

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
Oct 6, 2010
9,779
1,461
Elyria, OH
✟40,205.00
Faith
Marital Status
In Relationship
Yep.. then comes the eighth day..:clap:

And yet, another beginning....still without any real endings....

Why do people constantly want to put God on a timetable that is not His? He has given His appointed days and they don't even want to keep those and yet they want to bind Him into something He hasn't set up....:confused:
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,978
8,072
✟542,711.44
Gender
Female
Faith
Messianic
And yet, another beginning....still without any real endings....

Why do people constantly want to put God on a timetable that is not His? He has given His appointed days and they don't even want to keep those and yet they want to bind Him into something He hasn't set up....:confused:
They try.. but He is on His schedule, no matter what man may say or do.. or how much significance they think they can put on their man made traditions.. it still does not add up to a hill of beans in God's eyes.
 
Upvote 0

yedida

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
Oct 6, 2010
9,779
1,461
Elyria, OH
✟40,205.00
Faith
Marital Status
In Relationship
They try.. but He is on His schedule, no matter what man may say or do.. or how much significance they think they can put on their man made traditions.. it still does not add up to a hill of beans in God's eyes.

:thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,485
7,599
North Carolina
✟349,063.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
When you finish one course, are you really finished when there are more courses coming? Yeshua finished the Passover course... but there are more courses in the feasts... Those that are completed with His first coming are the spring feasts.. ending in Pentecost... so now we have three more courses and His second coming to look forward to.. "to come" something to look forward to.. when Yeshua finishes with these courses and heaven rings out ... IT IS DONE.
Do you have a Biblical basis for the feasts being "courses"?

Do you have a Biblical basis for shadows only in the spring feasts being fulfilled in Christ, while the fall feasts remain to be fulfilled?

Isn't the shadow of the Day of Atonement a fall feast? Wasn't it fulfilled at Calvary?

The Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of Ingathering, which are shadows, are fulfilled in Christ, in the gospel call and the gathering in of the elect.
There remains only the trumpet call at the resurrection and the separation of the wheat harvest (elect) from the grape harvest (condemned) at his second coming at the end of time.

This notion regarding the shadows of spring feasts becoming reality in Christ, while the shadows of fall feasts have not become reality in Christ, has no Biblical basis. Its origin is the mind of man, not the Word of God.

Revelation 16:17
The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,485
7,599
North Carolina
✟349,063.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
When you finish one course, are you really finished when there are more courses coming? Yeshua finished the Passover course... but there are more courses in the feasts... Those that are completed with His first coming are the spring feasts.. ending in Pentecost... so now we have three more courses and His second coming to look forward to.. "to come" something to look forward to.. when Yeshua finishes with these courses and heaven rings out ... IT IS DONE.

Revelation 16:17
The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
"It is finished," was said 2,000 years ago.

It refers to the completion of the one saving event of all time, which includes participation in the NT sacrificial meal through faith, as a participation (1Co 10:16) in the present benefits (sanctification) of the one saving event of 2,000 years ago.
 
Upvote 0

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Feb 11, 2007
323
67
Mobile, Alabama
✟23,383.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Do you have a Biblical basis for the feasts being "courses"?

Do you have a Biblical basis for shadows only in the spring feasts being fulfilled in Christ, while the fall feasts remain to be fulfilled?

Isn't the shadow of the Day of Atonement a fall feast? Wasn't it fulfilled at Calvary?

The Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of Ingathering, which are shadows, are fulfilled in Christ, in the gospel call and the gathering in of the elect.
There remains only the trumpet call at the resurrection and the separation of the wheat harvest (elect) from the grape harvest (condemned) at his second coming at the end of time.

This notion regarding the shadows of spring feasts becoming reality in Christ, while the shadows of fall feasts have not become reality in Christ, has no Biblical basis. Its origin is the mind of man, not the Word of God.

I agree and long ago rejected the interpretation that makes the Gospel subject to a particular eschatological view. The Day of Atonement, that one day of the year when the High Priest entered into the presence of God and sprinkled the blood that made atonement for sin, was fulfilled by Christ as explained by Paul in Hebrews 9:7-12. Indeed, if Jesus has not yet fulfilled the Law's requirement for the High Priest to appear in the presence of God and atone for sin, then there is no atonement in the blood of Christ, and we are all still dead in our sins!

The Gospel is, or should be, our first love and we must base our understanding on it's doctrines, and let the eschatology chips fall where they may. After all, it's not the doctrines of eschatology that save us, it's the Gospel that is the power of God unto salvation. But I fear too many students are being fed eschatology doctrines that in fact deny the most basic doctrines of the Gospel, such as denying the atoning work of Jesus Christ who as Paul says "Christ being come an high priest ... by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us ... Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus ... let us draw near with a true heart ... Let us hold fast the profession of our faith, without wavering."

And not only has Jesus fulfilled the day of Atonement by entering into the very presence of God in heaven and offering his own blood, by which he has forever atoned for those who trust in him, but we too are now able to enter into the Holiest, to come boldly to the throne, and to stand in the very presence of God by a new and living way, by the body of Jesus Christ.

How any of those who claim Christ as their Savior could allow endtime doctrines to bring them to deny the very atoning work that has saved them ... is a mystery I cannot fathom. The only explanation is that they have neglected the important doctrines of salvation, have failed to discern the light of the Gospel, and instead are chasing after shadows ...

"For the Law having a shadow of good things to come ..."

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,978
8,072
✟542,711.44
Gender
Female
Faith
Messianic
Do you have a Biblical basis for the feasts being "courses"?

Do you have a Biblical basis for shadows only in the spring feasts being fulfilled in Christ, while the fall feasts remain to be fulfilled?

Isn't the shadow of the Day of Atonement a fall feast? Wasn't it fulfilled at Calvary?

The Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of Ingathering, which are shadows, are fulfilled in Christ, in the gospel call and the gathering in of the elect.
There remains only the trumpet call at the resurrection and the separation of the wheat harvest (elect) from the grape harvest (condemned) at his second coming at the end of time.

This notion regarding the shadows of spring feasts becoming reality in Christ, while the shadows of fall feasts have not become reality in Christ, has no Biblical basis. Its origin is the mind of man, not the Word of God.
If you study the feasts, you would understand what the shadows and the reality of them are.
 
Upvote 0

yedida

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
Oct 6, 2010
9,779
1,461
Elyria, OH
✟40,205.00
Faith
Marital Status
In Relationship
Do you have a Biblical basis for the feasts being "courses"?

Do you have a Biblical basis for shadows only in the spring feasts being fulfilled in Christ, while the fall feasts remain to be fulfilled?

Isn't the shadow of the Day of Atonement a fall feast? Wasn't it fulfilled at Calvary?

The Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of Ingathering, which are shadows, are fulfilled in Christ, in the gospel call and the gathering in of the elect.
There remains only the trumpet call at the resurrection and the separation of the wheat harvest (elect) from the grape harvest (condemned) at his second coming at the end of time.

This notion regarding the shadows of spring feasts becoming reality in Christ, while the shadows of fall feasts have not become reality in Christ, has no Biblical basis. Its origin is the mind of man, not the Word of God.

When did the "ingathering" of the houses of Judah and Ephraim take place? Where are they now? And where do you get the idea that this "ingathering" is something other than to the two houses of Judah and Israel? (Yes, there are gentiles in the mix, but they are not THE mix, not the elect, just spattered within it.)
Therefore, because the "ingathering has not yet taken place, the fall feasts have yet to be fulfilled.
As far as Hebrews and Yom Kippur are concerned, yes, a portion of what this feast "shadows" has been fulfilled. BUT the larger part of that prophetic feast has not yet been fulfilled. Yom Kippur is a "national" atonement, a national deliverance, a national salvation, not specifically focused on the individual. There are some "individuals" within the commonwealth of national Israel that have it all sewn up, but the nation is not under the banner of "saved" yet - we're still looking forward to that Great Day.
The fall feasts are yet to be fulfilled. Study them out, on your own, I think you'll see that.
 
Upvote 0

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Feb 11, 2007
323
67
Mobile, Alabama
✟23,383.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
If you study the feasts, you would understand what the shadows and the reality of them are.

It is very simple and only requires a basic understanding of the Gospel.

The feasts are the shadows, the reality is Christ.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
Upvote 0

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Feb 11, 2007
323
67
Mobile, Alabama
✟23,383.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
When did the "ingathering" of the houses of Judah and Ephraim take place? Where are they now? And where do you get the idea that this "ingathering" is something other than to the two houses of Judah and Israel? (Yes, there are gentiles in the mix, but they are not THE mix, not the elect, just spattered within it.)
Therefore, because the "ingathering has not yet taken place, the fall feasts have yet to be fulfilled.

The ingathering of all 12 tribes took place in the beginning of the Gospel, which is why the Gospel was to the Jew first, and why Jesus instructed his disciples to begin their preaching in Jerusalem and then Judaea, and then Samaria, and only afterward to the nations, and why even when visiting cities and nations outside Israel Paul always went first the synagogue and preached the Gospel to the Jews first. The 40 years between the institution of the New Covenant (30 A.D.) and the judgment of the nation of Israel and end of the Old Covenant (70 A.D.) was a period of grace God gave to the Jewish nation so that they might hear the Gospel and repent and be saved from the wrath and judgment that was coming upon that generation, and indeed did come, in a 7-year war in which the Jewish state was destroyed, millions of Jews were killed, millions more were sold into slavery, and the land of Israel, a once beautiful and fruitful land, was stripped clean, every city and village destroyed, and the Holy City itself, and God's Holy House, reduced to rubble and dust.

But for 40 years, before this terrible judgment and destruction upon a sinful nation, the Jews were given a period of grace to hear the Gospel and be converted and be healed. Many thousands of Jews did in fact receive the Gospel and were saved, rich and poor, priests and pious folks, from all over the Holy land and thoughout the diaspora. These redeemed Jews were called by James, the Lord's brother, the "twelve tribes," and by John in the Revelation the "firstfruits," because they were in truth the firstfruits of the harvest of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the first to be reconciled with God through faith in Christ, the first to be gathered into God's kingdom, the first to inherit the promises, the first to be saved, the firstfruits, the good seed, which was safely brought into God's storehouse before the chaff was burned up and destroyed.

God never promiesd to save the whole nation, regardless of how some try to spin Romans 11:26. All God ever promised to save was a remnant, but that remnant, those Jews who are born of the Spirit of God, they are the redeemed, they are the saved, they are the elect, they are the 144,000, they are the firstfruits of the harvest of the Gospel, and they alone count in God's eyes as "Israel." Those who reject the Word of God are cast out, disinherited, and they have no part with the children of the freewoman.

As far as Hebrews and Yom Kippur are concerned, yes, a portion of what this feast "shadows" has been fulfilled. BUT the larger part of that prophetic feast has not yet been fulfilled.

And just what, pray tell, is "larger" than the High Priest Jesus Christ entering into the presence of God and making eternal redemption for men's souls? What exactly would you say is larger than that? I want to hear your explanation of how there is something about the Day of Atonement that was larger or more important than the High Priest sprinkling blood to make atonement for sin? Please explain.

Yom Kippur is a "national" atonement, a national deliverance, a national salvation, not specifically focused on the individual.

Atonement under the New Covenant is also "corporate" atonement for the whole body of Christ, the entire church, all the redeemed, of all time. Jesus doesn't enter the Holiest and offer himself over and over for every one that is saved. It is a once-for-all-forever atonement for all the redeemed, Jew and Gentile, bond and free, male and female, past, present and future. The whole household of God is covered by the blood of that once-for-all-forever offering.


There are some "individuals" within the commonwealth of national Israel that have it all sewn up,

These "individuals" you are so flippantly speaking of are all the redeemed of the nation of Israel, beginning with Adam and Noah, including Abraham, Moses, and David, and right on through to Matthew and Peter and Paul, and including those Christian Jews who trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation even today. These aren't just "individuals" that God let in but don't really count as you are suggesting. Those Jews who have received salvation by faith are the only Jews God counts as "Israel."

but the nation is not under the banner of "saved" yet - we're still looking forward to that Great Day.

Then you will look in vain. The majority of the nation will never accept Jesus, only a remnant will, but that remnant is counted by God as "all Israel" and they have already entered into his promises, Abraham is already dwelling in that country that he saw afar off, David is already worshipping at the throne of his Son, Moses is already seated with Peter and James on thrones reigning over the 12 tribes who have already been redeemed, delivered, saved, washed in the blood, reconciled with God, and even now stand in white robes before the throne of God singing the Song of Moses. Jesus came to redeem Israel, he did not fail.

The fall feasts are yet to be fulfilled. Study them out, on your own, I think you'll see that.

So what? In the scope of one short post you have gone from admitting that Jesus fulfilled at least some small bit of the Atonement to now again just willy nilly stating they have all yet to be fulfilled.

Perhaps instead of advising someone else to study the feasts ... you should study the Gospel.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
Upvote 0

yedida

Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!
Oct 6, 2010
9,779
1,461
Elyria, OH
✟40,205.00
Faith
Marital Status
In Relationship
The ingathering of all 12 tribes took place in the beginning of the Gospel, which is why the Gospel was to the Jew first, and why Jesus instructed his disciples to begin their preaching in Jerusalem and then Judaea, and then Samaria, and only afterward to the nations, and why even when visiting cities and nations outside Israel Paul always went first the synagogue and preached the Gospel to the Jews first. The 40 years between the institution of the New Covenant (30 A.D.) and the judgment of the nation of Israel and end of the Old Covenant (70 A.D.) was a period of grace God gave to the Jewish nation so that they might hear the Gospel and repent and be saved from the wrath and judgment that was coming upon that generation, and indeed did come, in a 7-year war in which the Jewish state was destroyed, millions of Jews were killed, millions more were sold into slavery, and the land of Israel, a once beautiful and fruitful land, was stripped clean, every city and village destroyed, and the Holy City itself, and God's Holy House, reduced to rubble and dust.

But for 40 years, before this terrible judgment and destruction upon a sinful nation, the Jews were given a period of grace to hear the Gospel and be converted and be healed. Many thousands of Jews did in fact receive the Gospel and were saved, rich and poor, priests and pious folks, from all over the Holy land and thoughout the diaspora. These redeemed Jews were called by James, the Lord's brother, the "twelve tribes," and by John in the Revelation the "firstfruits," because they were in truth the firstfruits of the harvest of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the first to be reconciled with God through faith in Christ, the first to be gathered into God's kingdom, the first to inherit the promises, the first to be saved, the firstfruits, the good seed, which was safely brought into God's storehouse before the chaff was burned up and destroyed.

God never promiesd to save the whole nation, regardless of how some try to spin Romans 11:26. All God ever promised to save was a remnant, but that remnant, those Jews who are born of the Spirit of God, they are the redeemed, they are the saved, they are the elect, they are the 144,000, they are the firstfruits of the harvest of the Gospel, and they alone count in God's eyes as "Israel." Those who reject the Word of God are cast out, disinherited, and they have no part with the children of the freewoman.



And just what, pray tell, is "larger" than the High Priest Jesus Christ entering into the presence of God and making eternal redemption for men's souls? What exactly would you say is larger than that? I want to hear your explanation of how there is something about the Day of Atonement that was larger or more important than the High Priest sprinkling blood to make atonement for sin? Please explain.



Atonement under the New Covenant is also "corporate" atonement for the whole body of Christ, the entire church, all the redeemed, of all time. Jesus doesn't enter the Holiest and offer himself over and over for every one that is saved. It is a once-for-all-forever atonement for all the redeemed, Jew and Gentile, bond and free, male and female, past, present and future. The whole household of God is covered by the blood of that once-for-all-forever offering.




These "individuals" you are so flippantly speaking of are all the redeemed of the nation of Israel, beginning with Adam and Noah, including Abraham, Moses, and David, and right on through to Matthew and Peter and Paul, and including those Christian Jews who trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation even today. These aren't just "individuals" that God let in but don't really count as you are suggesting. Those Jews who have received salvation by faith are the only Jews God counts as "Israel."



Then you will look in vain. The majority of the nation will never accept Jesus, only a remnant will, but that remnant is counted by God as "all Israel" and they have already entered into his promises, Abraham is already dwelling in that country that he saw afar off, David is already worshipping at the throne of his Son, Moses is already seated with Peter and James on thrones reigning over the 12 tribes who have already been redeemed, delivered, saved, washed in the blood, reconciled with God, and even now stand in white robes before the throne of God singing the Song of Moses. Jesus came to redeem Israel, he did not fail.



So what? In the scope of one short post you have gone from admitting that Jesus fulfilled at least some small bit of the Atonement to now again just willy nilly stating they have all yet to be fulfilled.

Perhaps instead of advising someone else to study the feasts ... you should study the Gospel.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

I have for decades, within mainstream teachings and without. The fall feasts are yet to be fulfilled. No need for further discussion, you don't have to see it. Time will reveal the truth.

P.S.
I'm not flippant about anything to do with God. Sorry you saw me coming off as such, it was not intentional; possibly a personality quirk between us...
 
Upvote 0

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Feb 11, 2007
323
67
Mobile, Alabama
✟23,383.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
I have for decades, within mainstream teachings and without. The fall feasts are yet to be fulfilled. No need for further discussion, you don't have to see it. Time will reveal the truth.

My friend, you don't have to wait for time to reveal the truth, Jesus Christ IS the truth, and he has already been revealed, both in the humility of the flesh, and in the glory of the spirit, and everything there is to know about the truth, past, present, and future, is found in him.

You are looking for truth in the wrong place. Paul said, "the law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17) The truth is not something we have to wait to see, the truth has already been revealed ... it only remains for us to allow the Spirit to open our eyes to it.

But if you continue to turn your back and refuse to even discuss your beliefs in the light of the Gospel, how will you ever know if what you have been taught is in fact true? In his last hours before his suffering, Jesus told his disciples that when the Spirit came, He would lead them into all truth, because He would glorify Jesus. This doctrine you are following not only does not glorify Jesus ... it denies the very purpose for which Jesus came into the world, the single most important work He accomplished ... atonement for sin. But you don't think that is worthy of further discussion?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,485
7,599
North Carolina
✟349,063.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If you study the feasts, you would understand what the shadows and the reality of them are.
I study the Scriptures.

Do you have a Biblical basis for only some of the shadows fulfilled in Christ, while others are not?
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,978
8,072
✟542,711.44
Gender
Female
Faith
Messianic
I study the Scriptures.

Do you have a Biblical basis for only some of the shadows fulfilled in Christ, while others are not?
This is a subject worthy of study in and of itself. Start with the Temple and learn of the compartments and their purposes, then move on to the feast services themselves. Learn what each part means, and then the vision of what God is telling us through His plan of redemption laid out in these feasts will reveal themselves to you through the help of the Holy Spirit teaching you. If you have any further questions specific to the significance of anything that God directed will be part of the services.. feel free to ask.. we are more than willing to share.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,485
7,599
North Carolina
✟349,063.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This is a subject worthy of study in and of itself. Start with the Temple and learn of the compartments and their purposes, then move on to the feast services themselves. Learn what each part means, and then the vision of what God is telling us through His plan of redemption laid out in these feasts will reveal themselves to you through the help of the Holy Spirit teaching you. If you have any further questions specific to the significance of anything that God directed will be part of the services.. feel free to ask.. we are more than willing to share.
Thanks. Please direct me to the Scriptures where this is located.

Only they are the Word of God. All else is the word of man.
 
Upvote 0

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Feb 11, 2007
323
67
Mobile, Alabama
✟23,383.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Feb 11, 2007
323
67
Mobile, Alabama
✟23,383.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Lev 23 is on the feasts... that is a good place to start.

But there is nothing in Leviticus 23 that speaks of what Jesus did or did not fulfill. The only source for answers to those issues is the Gospel. Do you not agree?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,978
8,072
✟542,711.44
Gender
Female
Faith
Messianic
But there is nothing in Leviticus 23 that speaks of what Jesus did or did not fulfill. The only source for answers to those issues is the Gospel. Do you not agree?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Absolutely... the Lev is the shadow [rehearsal] and Yeshua will always be the fulfillment... Just like He fulfilled the Passover lamb, has taken over the Levitical services in the temple as a Melchezideck priest order, and presents His blood in the heavenly temple before His Father... it all can be seen the prophectic script given to Moses on Mount Sinai.:thumbsup: It is the dress rehearsal of the real plan of redemption that Yeshua will fulfill .. part of which He did with His first coming, and part is still a "shadow" of things to come with His second coming.
 
Upvote 0

Pilgrimer

Junior Member
Feb 11, 2007
323
67
Mobile, Alabama
✟23,383.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Absolutely... the Lev is the shadow [rehearsal] and Yeshua will always be the fulfillment... Just like He fulfilled the Passover lamb, has taken over the Levitical services in the temple as a Melchezideck priest order, and presents His blood in the heavenly temple before His Father... it all can be seen the prophectic script given to Moses on Mount Sinai.:thumbsup: It is the dress rehearsal of the real plan of redemption that Yeshua will fulfill .. part of which He did with His first coming, and part is still a "shadow" of things to come with His second coming.


You mean the Cross was not "the real plan of redemption"? And you are basing this on the Gospel? Please explain.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
Upvote 0