The Four Aspects of Salvation.

[JLB777]

Sometimes there is a secondary truth that can be expressed by a verse or passage.

I agree, but the secondary truth does not invalidate the primary truth.




JLB

 

[Dave L]

So you teaching us that under the New Covenant, we no longer have a free will? LOL!

You are funny, and very deceived.


We must believe in order to be saved.


It’s totally false to teach people they must first be saved then believe.


Please explain to us how a person becomes born again, if they don’t believe the Gospel?



JLB

We have free will, but it never enters into salvation. If you try to read it into the gospel, you turn it into law and grace into works.

 

[JLB777]

James 5:19-20 and the Parable of the Prodigal Son both talk about falling away into sin and out of service to the Lord with them being dead spiritually, and yet they were accepted again at a later time via by being converted again or by repentance

If you are familiar with my writings, you know very well I use both of those scriptures extensively to show that a person can wander away from Christ Jesus and become lost.


However, this is not the Greek Word fall away or depart from Christ, either while under persecution, or through false teaching in which they renounce Him as Messiah and Lord.


If someone falls away in this manner, they can not be brought again to repentance.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6




Wandering away and becoming lost due to sin, is another matter in which the person must repent, in order to be reconciled back to Him.

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



Two different scenarios:

• On the one hand, it is impossible... to renew to repentance.

• On the other.... there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

His sheep who wander away and become lost, are no longer justified and must repent as a sinner.





JLB

 

[JLB777]

We have free will,

Whoever believes is all about free will.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Whoever means whoever, not something else such as only those predestined to be saved.

• He who believes in the Son has eternal life

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36




JLB

 

[JLB777]

We have free will, but it never enters into salvation.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Does this say “whoever believes” in Him or does this say
whoever is predestined?


Just read what it says, not read into it what it doesn’t say.




JLB

 

[Dave L]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Does this say “whoever believes” in Him or does this say
whoever is predestined?


Just read what it says, not read into it what it doesn’t say.




JLB

Does it say whoever "chooses" to believe = free will = law = no grace.

 

[Dave L]

Whoever believes is all about free will.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Whoever means whoever, not something else such as only those predestined to be saved.

• He who believes in the Son has eternal life

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36




JLB

You are reading free will into it. Believing is a trait of those whom God saves.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree, but the secondary truth does not invalidate the primary truth.




JLB

I am not suggesting that it does. In Hebrews 10:26, I was suggesting that the more generic secondary truth is that all grievous sin separates us from God. Apostasy is a grievous sin is like other grievous sins in that it causes a separation between God and man, but as you mentioned before, the key difference is that there is no turning back to the Lord if one commits it. This is what I was meaning to say by it. If apostasy was not a sin in any way, then I would be taking the verse totally out of context. But at the heart, Hebrews 10:26 can be expressing the basic truth that all grievous sin (or mortal sin) does separate us from the Lord and His sacrifice.

Note: When I say "grievous sin," I am referring to the kind of sins that cause spiritual death. For there is a sin that does not lead unto death (1 John 5:17).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you are familiar with my writings, you know very well I use both of those scriptures extensively to show that a person can wander away from Christ Jesus and become lost.


However, this is not the Greek Word fall away or depart from Christ, either while under persecution, or through false teaching in which they renounce Him as Messiah and Lord.


If someone falls away in this manner, they can not be brought again to repentance.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6




Wandering away and becoming lost due to sin, is another matter in which the person must repent, in order to be reconciled back to Him.

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7



Two different scenarios:

• On the one hand, it is impossible... to renew to repentance.

• On the other.... there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

His sheep who wander away and become lost, are no longer justified and must repent as a sinner.





JLB

I agree that apostasy is the primary truth of Hebrews 10:26.
But like I said, all grievous sin does also separate us from GOD and there is no more sacrifice for a person's sin if they do not confess and or forsake such a sin. Meaning, if a believer willfully commits the sin of murder, theft, adultery, and they think they are saved, in reality the sacrifice of Christ is no longer available to them under these circumstances. They have to confess and forsake such sins (Which is the opposite of someone willfully sinning or thinking their future sin is paid for). For if we accept the doctrine that says we can turn God's grace into a license for immorality, there remains no more sacrifice for sin in this case. But if they truly repent of this belief, the sacrifice of Christ can then apply.

The warning in Hebrews 3 is that sin (in general) can lead to apostasy.

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:13).​

Again, we see the motivation behind why folks choose to reject God, it is because of the pleasure of sin in general.

"Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;" (Hebrews 11:25).​

This is why we are encouraged to lay aside every sin that may beset us.

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us," (Hebrews 12:1).​

I know of a brother who went down a wrong path of sin that concerns me. Will he return? Or will he continue to let his willful sin in his life lead to a rejection of Christ in the end? Only time will tell. I pray that he makes the right choice in the end because I love my brother and want the best for him. I would love to see him and be with him in the kingdom one day.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We have free will, but it never enters into salvation. If you try to read it into the gospel, you turn it into law and grace into works.

I do not fully understand the motivation behind the idea of how folks ignore the many verses or passages on free will in the Bible. Why would God feel grieved or upset over the wicked world in the time of the global flood if he predestined them to be that way? I always thought that folks do not want to own up to their own responsibility on certain things in life as to the reason why they would believe God is this way. For me: It looks like they do not want to own up to serving God, and they want the Easy Believism path or road that makes room for justifying sin. For a person can sin by denying to do good works for the Lord like refusing to love others by telling them about Jesus, or refusing to help the poor, etc.; Now, do not get me wrong. There are so many more people that I can help, and love. But at least I know that I must help them. If we pull the rug of responsibility out from under ourselves, it will only make us to trip and fall and be miserable in this life. We need to love God and others fully and in truth (according to His Word) to truly have the depth of the happiness of God that we seek.

 

[Dave L]

I do not fully understand the motivation behind the idea of how folks ignore the many verses or passages on free will in the Bible. Why would God feel grieved or upset over the wicked world in the time of the global flood if he predestined them to be that way? I always thought that folks do not want to own up to their own responsibility on certain things in life as to the reason why they would believe God is this way. For me: It looks like they do not want to own up to serving God, and they want the Easy Believism path or road that makes room for justifying sin. For a person can sin by denying to do good works for the Lord like refusing to love others by telling them about Jesus, or refusing to help the poor, etc.

Free will to sin? Yes. Free will to discern spiritual truth and act on it? No.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Free will to sin? Yes. Free will to discern spiritual truth and act on it? No.

If sin is the only person's choice then it is not free will, but it is a position of their being in a sinful depraved state that God has placed them in. This would mean God is responsible for people remaining sinful. This is not possible because God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Free will to sin? Yes. Free will to discern spiritual truth and act on it? No.

Also, your view of GOD is a contradiction in many verses of the Bible.
Again, how can GOD be grieved by the sin of those who perished in the global flood in Genesis 6 if it was GOD who desired them to remain that way? Think.

 

[Dave L]

If sin is the only person's choice then it is not free will, but it is a position of their being in a sinful depraved state that God has placed them in. This would mean God is responsible for people remaining sinful. This is not possible because God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The will resides in the flesh that can do nothing but sin. Only after being born again can the will discern Christ in truth and desire holiness.

 

[Dave L]

Also, your view of GOD is a contradiction in many verses of the Bible.
Again, how can GOD be grieved by the sin of those who perished in the global flood in Genesis 6 if it was GOD who desired them to remain that way? Think.

Where does it say God grieved?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where does it say God grieved?

How can you not know about this verse?

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Genesis 6:6).

 

[Dave L]

How can you not know about this verse?

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Genesis 6:6).

“And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.” Genesis 6:6 (KJV 1900)

It repented God........... Means God cannot remain good if he does not kill sinners. So his repentance means that he no longer sustained them but gave them what they deserved by destroying all in the flood.

That is; how does God repent from creating man? He repents by destroying him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.” Genesis 6:6 (KJV 1900)

It repented God........... Means God cannot remain good if he does not kill sinners. So his repentance means that he no longer sustained them but gave them what they deserved by destroying all in the flood.

That is; how does God repent from creating man? He repents by destroying him.

You missed the point of the verse that I was making. I highlighted the word "grieved" in that verse. The verse says that it grieved him at his heart. How can God be grieved if it was His own decision for the wicked to remain that way? It makes no sense.

 

[Dave L]

You missed the point of the verse that I was making. I highlighted the word "grieved" in that verse. The verse says that it grieved him at his heart. How can God be grieved if it was His own decision for the wicked to remain that way? It makes no sense.

Grieve has a broad area of meaning in Hebrew. You need to find the right definition there and not from modern usage.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Genesis 6:6 says,
"And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."