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The Fossil Record Proves Speciation, Not Evolution of Lifeforms Observed

FrumiousBandersnatch

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The point is the spectrum of possible effects is wide and can include couner intuitive results which a possible spiritual realm could fall within.
You can call universe instances of a multiverse 'spiritual realms' if you like, but they must follow consistent physical laws derived from the theory that predicts them, and they will be causally disconnected from us (i.e. no interaction). This makes the quite unlike any 'spiritual realms' I've heard proposed or described.

I'd suggest you do better to imagine your wish-fulfilment fantasy of the best outcomes that could have happened in your life to date; if Everettian Many Worlds holds good, there will be at least one such version of you 'out there' (although having had the best of all possible outcomes throughout life, he won't be much like you) ;)

If consciousness is a possible effect on the quantum world then a spiritual realm of some sort would also be possible.
How does that follow?


Like I said if there was a heaven or spiritual realm then I am sure scientists would try to put some rules to it even if it defied classical physics and was counter-intuitive like some of the effects in quantum physics.
Our own universe defies classical physics, but I wouldn't call it 'heaven' or a 'spiritual realm'.

I suspect your efforts to find something in the multiverse that fits a spiritual realm are likely to be disappointing - you can't just make up any old tosh and hope that you'll find it in the multiverse.

What is the solid evidenvce for some of the speculative ideas in science that are believed and well accepted especially in the cosmos and quantum fields. They are based on thought experiments that really do not have well-supported and solid evidence.
As already explained, they are mainly predictions of well-established theory, or interpretations of well-established theory. Some are hypotheses, based on observational evidence and grounded in well-established theory.

If you want a specific answer, you need to ask a specific question.

Two writers argue that modern science needs to get a grip on reality, rejecting 'timeless' theories of the universe and the 'fairytale' physics of string theory.
In Farewell to Reality, Baggott now castigates theoretical physicists for indulging a whole industry of "fairytale physics" – strings, supersymmetry, brane worlds, M-theory, the anthropic principle – that not only pile one unwarranted assumption on another but are beyond the reach of experimental tests for the foreseeable future.
Time Reborn by Lee Smolin; Farewell to Reality by Jim Baggott – review
Sure, there are metaphysical questions to be asked about whether some of these things can be classed as science, or even whether they can be real - there is a lot of debate over definitions, classifications, and interpretations. Nevertheless, these are intriguing ideas, not least because by straddling the boundaries of such categories, they lead us to question precisely what we mean by our definitions of them.

Don't some of the ideas like superstring theory spectulate and step outside the physical laws of this universe.
How, for example? both inflation and the cosmological multiverse predict universes with high-level physical laws that are different from ours, but they're derived from the same underlying theory.

But if the scientific method makes certain assumptions which it bases its approach on then the method would be flawed. Eveen though it would make sense within a certain parameter it would not in the overall scheme of things and always be grappling with trying to make things fit to that certain materialistic view.
All methods of equiry require some basic assumptions. Which assumptions do you think make the method flawed?
 
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juvenissun

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I've asked so many times that I've lost count! Would you PLEASE give me the definition for life that you are using?

I am intersted to see how would you respond to the answer, which I am giving it one more time here, Just for you. Don't disappointed me.

If a system has a subsystem which functions like our circulation system does, then that system is a life.
 
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Kylie

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I am intersted to see how would you respond to the answer, which I am giving it one more time here, Just for you. Don't disappointed me.

If a system has a subsystem which functions like our circulation system does, then that system is a life.

So my car is alive because it has a system to move petrol from the tank to the engine?

Your definition seems to be a lousy one.
 
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Ophiolite

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No way. It is not a life, and is justified to be exterminated (i.e. genocide).
Deary me. Are you are serious? Tell me you are trolling. That at least would be understandable. Amazing.

Just out of interest how do you exterminate something that is not alive? You can destroy it, but you cannot exterminate it. Extermination relates to the killing of living things, so you are proposing it is OK to kill something that you simultaneously say is not alive. Bizarre.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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If a system has a subsystem which functions like our circulation system does, then that system is a life.

But rocks don't have that sort of system. Ergo, by using that (very poor) definition, rocks aren't alive.
 
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stevevw

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You can call universe instances of a multiverse 'spiritual realms' if you like, but they must follow consistent physical laws derived from the theory that predicts them, and they will be causally disconnected from us (i.e. no interaction). This makes the quite unlike any 'spiritual realms' I've heard proposed or described.

I'd suggest you do better to imagine your wish-fulfilment fantasy of the best outcomes that could have happened in your life to date; if Everettian Many Worlds holds good, there will be at least one such version of you 'out there' (although having had the best of all possible outcomes throughout life, he won't be much like you) ;)
It is not a fantasy though I do wonder with some of the ideas being proposed. The problem is the physics on which we base possible ideas like a multiverse can also possibly produce consciousness in our reality. So that means the possible outcomes can range from what we see to whatever reality or non-real world where consciousness is the dominant force or the only thing that exists.

How does that follow?
Becuase consciousness implies a non-material existence. Spirituality is also about non-material existence. For all, we know heaven or a spiritual realm is just that, an existence where our consciousness or maybe what is called our soul exists.


Our own universe defies classical physics, but I wouldn't call it 'heaven' or a 'spiritual realm'.
It all depends what you mean by heaven or a spiritual world as mentioned above.

I suspect your efforts to find something in the multiverse that fits a spiritual realm are likely to be disappointing - you can't just make up any old tosh and hope that you'll find it in the multiverse.
Why scientists do. Dark matter and multiverses stem from quantum physics. Consciousness which can point to a spiritual world stems from quantum physics. It is not making it up but considering all the possible interpretations of quantum physics. The problem is quantum physics effects can spur many if not just about any strange and far-fetched idea because that is what quantum physics points to.

When scientists have problems with an existing theory like the big bang, for example, they can come up with dark matter to solve the problems. If the calculations do not add up to what is predicted because there is not enough matter just add a sprinkle of mysterious dark matter. Dark matter is not a verified fact and in fact, is disputed. The multi-million dollar machine that began work last year to detect dark matter has not found anything.
The World's Most Sensitive Dark Matter Detector Is Now Up and Running

As already explained, they are mainly predictions of the well-established theory or interpretations of well-established theory. Some are hypotheses, based on observational evidence and grounded in well-established theory.
Yes, they are interpretations. A Multiverse is an interpretation of what happens in the quantum world. But that interpretation is derived from the need to come up with answers/explanations to difficult observations/evidence that cannot be explained by classical physics. So, therefore, there is a lot of fudge factor in what ideas are proposed. One of the reasons a multiverse is proposed is to deal with the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.

Sure, there are metaphysical questions to be asked about whether some of these things can be classed as science, or even whether they can be real - there is a lot of debate over definitions, classifications, and interpretations. Nevertheless, these are intriguing ideas, not least because by straddling the boundaries of such categories, they lead us to question precisely what we mean by our definitions of them.

How, for example? both inflation and the cosmological multiverse predict universes with high-level physical laws that are different from ours, but they're derived from the same underlying theory.

All methods of enquiry require some basic assumptions. Which assumptions do you think to make the method flawed?
Yes, I agree and do not dispute the ideas being proposed by mainstream scientists. It seems science is moving towards metaphysics as time goes by. Maybe the two should work closer together but I think there is a resistance mainly from some scientists who feel that there is no compromise to even work together and want to protect themselves. That's why I say sometimes it is not just about the science but about personal beliefs as well. My point once again is ideas like consciousness and possible spiritual realms should be considered as they stem from the same physics. It just that some won't even admit that because of their worldview beliefs.

Faced with difficulties in applying fundamental theories to the observed Universe, some researchers called for a change in how theoretical physics is done. They began to argue — explicitly — that if a theory is sufficiently elegant and explanatory, it need not be tested experimentally, breaking with centuries of philosophical tradition of defining scientific knowledge as empirical.

Because string theory is supposedly the 'only game in town' capable of unifying the four fundamental forces, they believe that it must contain a grain of truth even though it relies on extra dimensions that we can never observe. Some cosmologists, too, are seeking to abandon experimental verification of grand hypotheses that invoke imperceptible domains such as the kaleidoscopic multiverse (comprising myriad universes), the 'many worlds' version of quantum reality (in which observations spawn parallel branches of reality) and pre-Big Bang concepts.

These unprovable hypotheses are quite different from those that relate directly to the real world and that are testable through observations — such as the standard model of particle physics and the existence of dark matter and dark energy. As we see it, theoretical physics risks becoming a no-man's-land between mathematics, physics and philosophy that does not truly meet the requirements of any.
Scientific method: Defend the integrity of physics

The multiverse is motivated by a puzzle: why fundamental constants of nature, such as the fine-structure constant that characterizes the strength of electromagnetic interactions between particles and the cosmological constant associated with the acceleration of the expansion of the Universe, have values that lie in the small range that allows life to exist. Multiverse theory claims that there are billions of unobservable sister universes out there in which all possible values of these constants can occur. So somewhere there will be a bio-friendly universe like ours, however improbable that is.
Scientific method: Defend the integrity of physics

 
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VirOptimus

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-snip-

Yes, I agree and do not dispute the ideas being proposed by mainstream scientists. It seems science is moving towards metaphysics as time goes by. Maybe the two should work closer together but I think there is a resistance mainly from some scientists who feel that there is no compromise to even work together and want to protect themselves. That's why I say sometimes it is not just about the science but about personal beliefs as well. My point once again is ideas like consciousness and possible spiritual realms should be considered as they stem from the same physics. It just that some won't even admit that because of their worldview beliefs.

If you understood the difference between physics and metaphysics then you would also understand the profound stupidity of your post.
 
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stevevw

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Just in case you do not take my word for what I am saying here are a couple of papers and articles.


Here is a famous physicist (Michio Kaku) who was involved in creating the string theory who also has created a theory that there is an intelligent agent behind the universe and has scientific evidence for it
Renowned physicist finds PROOF of God: Universe was created by DESIGN in huge 'matrix'

This experiment confirms the observer effect and consciousness.
Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness

Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Just in case you do not take my word for what I am saying here are a couple of papers and articles.


Here is a famous physicist (Michio Kaku) who was involved in creating the string theory who also has created a theory that there is an intelligent agent behind the universe and has scientific evidence for it
Renowned physicist finds PROOF of God: Universe was created by DESIGN in huge 'matrix'

This experiment confirms the observer effect and consciousness.
Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness

Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness

Question: what does any of this have to do evolution of lifeforms as shown by the fossil record?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The problem is the physics on which we base possible ideas like a multiverse can also possibly produce consciousness in our reality. So that means the possible outcomes can range from what we see to whatever reality or non-real world where consciousness is the dominant force or the only thing that exists.
The physics of our universe produces consciousness; all available scientific evidence indicates it's a particular kind of brain process involving neuron signalling. There's no good reason it couldn't also be produced in any other universe supporting that type of information processing, but given what we know about it, it's not reasonable to suppose such processes could exist without processors (e.g. brains).

Becuase consciousness implies a non-material existence.
No, it doesn't (see above). Alternatively, explain how (the interaction problem, thermodynamics, what 'non-material' even means in this context, etc).

It all depends what you mean by heaven or a spiritual world as mentioned above.
I'm going by what was described by the Christian priests and others during my youth, and what I've since learned of the beliefs of other religions. I don't know what you think of them; if you think they could be worlds similar to ours, or with different but consistent physical laws rather than physically incoherent fantasies, then I don't see what the fuss is about - there may be vast numbers of such universes.

Why scientists do. Dark matter and multiverses stem from quantum physics. Consciousness which can point to a spiritual world stems from quantum physics. It is not making it up but considering all the possible interpretations of quantum physics. The problem is quantum physics effects can spur many if not just about any strange and far-fetched idea because that is what quantum physics points to.
Everything we know stems from quantum physics, but there's no support there for 'spiritual worlds' - unless you just mean other universes in the multiverse.

All interpretations of QM must be consistent with the quantum formalism, which is a set of well-defined rules - try to remember that our own universe is quantum mechanical - at macro-scale, quantum mechanics looks semi-classical, not strange and far-fetched.

When scientists have problems with an existing theory like the big bang, for example, they can come up with dark matter to solve the problems. If the calculations do not add up to what is predicted because there is not enough matter just add a sprinkle of mysterious dark matter. Dark matter is not a verified fact and in fact, is disputed.
As usual, you have things backwards - the anomalous gravitational phenomena are observed, verified fact. Dark matter is the leading hypothesis to explain those phenomena.

That dark matter particles would help explain the calculated matter discrepancy, along with a number of other unexplained observations, lends it additional support as the leading hypothesis, but is not the reason for it.

A Multiverse is an interpretation of what happens in the quantum world. But that interpretation is derived from the need to come up with answers/explanations to difficult observations/evidence that cannot be explained by classical physics. So, therefore, there is a lot of fudge factor in what ideas are proposed.
Nope; as above, all interpretations must conform to the quantum formalism. In each case, a minimum of ad-hoc additions (wavefunction collapse, pilot waves, etc) are posited to make a coherent interpretation.

In the case of the Everettian multiverse (Many Worlds) no ad-hoc additions are made, as already explained, it is simply the unitary evolution of the wavefunction (described by the Schrodinger equation) taken as a literal description - Occam himself would favour it. That doesn't necessarily make it correct, but it has no 'fudge factor' at all.

One of the reasons a multiverse is proposed is to deal with the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.
Wrong - another cart-before-horse error. Multiverse ideas precede the raising of the appearance of fine tuning as a problem; also - as already explained - they are predictions of leading physical theories.

Also, invoking a multiverse as an explanation of the appearance of fine tuning is appealing to the Weak Anthropic Principle, something that most cosmologists find unsatisfying, unappealing, and - so far - unverifiable and unfalsifiable; so major efforts continue to find an underlying causal explanation for the physical constant values, etc.

It seems science is moving towards metaphysics as time goes by. Maybe the two should work closer together but I think there is a resistance mainly from some scientists who feel that there is no compromise to even work together and want to protect themselves.
Science and metaphysics are not two institutions working separately - metaphysics has always been part of wider scientific enquiry, as in the philosophy of science, and notably in cosmology and cosmogony.

My point once again is ideas like consciousness and possible spiritual realms should be considered as they stem from the same physics. It just that some won't even admit that because of their worldview beliefs.
It's not because of their worldview beliefs, but because there's no basis in what we've learned about the universe to support those ideas, and they are generally contradictory to what we've learned about the universe (with the multiverse/spiritual realm caveats above - unless you wish to describe the properties you feel are necessary for a spiritual realm or heaven - interaction seems a requirement for them to be at all relevant).
 
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stevevw

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The physics of our universe produces consciousness; all available scientific evidence indicates it's a particular kind of brain process involving neuron signalling. There's no good reason it couldn't also be produced in any other universe supporting that type of information processing, but given what we know about it, it's not reasonable to suppose such processes could exist without processors (e.g. brains).

Contrary to what you say scientists still have no evidence for what consciousness is. Science cannot answer some of the questions that we as human’s experience with just chemical and electrical processes when it comes to the inner awareness of self. Things like the experince of pain seems to be more than just signals going to the brain. If it’s just about wires and signals, then why can't machines be conscious and have feelings. A biological and evolutionary explanation cannot account for everything experinced when it comes to consciousness. We in fact have evidence for consciousness from several sources including entire journals dedicated to support of consciousness.
Tests done on the observer effect in quantum physics,
Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness
Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness
Famous scientists like John Archibald Wheeler, Christof Koch and Sir Roger Penrose also support consciousness.
The Universe May Be Conscious, Say Prominent Scientists

Tests showing people have some sort of existence that they can recall even after the brain has ceased all activity,
LIFE AFTER DEATH: Scientists reveal shock findings from groundbreaking study
LIFE AFTER DEATH: Scientists reveal shock findings from groundbreaking study

Other tests supporting consciousness
First evidence for higher state of consciousness found
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-04-evidence-higher-state-consciousness.html

No, it doesn't (see above). Alternatively, explain how (the interaction problem, thermodynamics, what 'non-material' even means in this context, etc).
If you view consciousness as only being physical brain function then yes it is only material. But the point is I am supporting consciousness as being beyond the physical brain and wires which is immaterial. I do not know how the interaction problem is determined and I guess this is something yet to be worked out. It may be a bit like how something can come from nothing. How do we explain how something comes from literally nothing.

I'm going by what was described by the Christian priests and others during my youth, and what I've since learned of the beliefs of other religions. I don't know what you think of them; if you think they could be worlds similar to ours, or with different but consistent physical laws rather than physically incoherent fantasies, then I don't see what the fuss is about - there may be vast numbers of such universes.
If you take all the descriptions of what we call life or existence beyond this world is you will have different descriptions from a transcendence, a world where gods are like people, to heaven. These cover a fair range of alternative realms but these are not scientific attempts at explaining a spiritual realm. If one existed and could be indirectly detected in our reality I would imagine it could be something along the lines of what we see in the quantum world as this takes things back to a point or near nothingness as far a this world is concerned where things begin to act strangly different and defy what we understand in classical cause and effect. So maybe that is the doorway to something non material becuase it is close to nothing physical.

Everything we know
stems from quantum physics, but there's no support there for 'spiritual worlds' - unless you just mean other universes in the multiverse.
The quantum world acts counter intuitive to what we see. This allows scientists to come up with ideas that also defy the way classical world works. Becuase the quantum world offers strange behaviors like particles being able to affect each ofther at great distances, go through solid objects, materialize on observation that this is a glimpse at what lies beyond our material world and into a spiritual realm if you want to call it that or maybe call it the pre-quantum realm. Afterall what lies beyond the quantum world, something had to produce it.

All interpretations of QM must be consistent with the quantum formalism, which is a set of well-defined rules - try to remember that our own universe is quantum mechanical - at macro-scale, quantum mechanics looks semi-classical, not strange and far-fetched.
Well it acts in defiance of the way the classical world works which to some may be another way of saying it acts supernatural. If a particle can materialise on observation when applied to our clasical world would seem magical and defy clasical physics.

As usual, you have things backwards - the anomalous gravitational phenomena are observed, verified fact. Dark matter is the leading hypothesis to explain those phenomena.
I was thinking more about how the big bang did not produce enough evenly spread matter but rather clusters to account for what we see in the CMBR so dark matter was assumed to make up the rest. Either way dark matter is really undeactable directly so it is a convient idea for some to use as a fudge factor in accounting what is observed and what should be in relativity terms.
Dark Matter - The Big Bang and the Big Crunch - The Physics of the Universe
In the case of the Everettian multiverse (Many Worlds) no ad-hoc additions are made, as already explained, it is simply the unitary evolution of the wavefunction (described by the Schrodinger equation) taken as a literal description - Occam himself would favour it. That doesn't necessarily make it correct, but it has no 'fudge factor' at all.
I do not mean fudging the calculations in the many worlds interpretation itself but the use of these ideas as way of helping deal with observations that do not fit in with a world view of things. Ie the fine tuning problem can be solved by multivserses. Though fine tuning itself does not say anything about a multiverse the idea of a multiverse can be applied to fine tuning to deal with the problem. The same with the idea of inflation which helps deal with the horizon and temperature problems of the big band theory. According to one of its creators Paul Steinhardt says that the inflation theory was made to deal with the fine tuning problem similar to one of the reasons the multiverse theory is used for.
Cosmic Inflation Theory Faces Challenges

Wrong - another cart-before-horse error. Multiverse ideas precede the raising of the appearance of fine tuning as a problem; also - as already explained - they are predictions of leading physical theories.
I dont dispute that. I am talking about how a multiverse idea has been used to help explain away the fine tuning of the universe for intelligent life.

The concept of other universes has been proposed to explain how our own universe appears to be fine-tuned for conscious life as we experience it.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323074157_Multiverse_theories_consider

Science and metaphysics are not two institutions working separately - metaphysics has always been part of wider scientific enquiry, as in the philosophy of science, and notably in cosmology and cosmogony.

It's not because of their worldview beliefs, but because there's no basis in what we've learned about the universe to support those ideas, and they are generally contradictory to what we've learned about the universe (with the multiverse/spiritual realm caveats above - unless you wish to describe the properties you feel are necessary for a spiritual realm or heaven - interaction seems a requirement for them to be at all relevant).
As mentioned heaven/spiritual realms may just be something that is beyond the quantum world. The quantum world takes us to the point of nothingness which is close to the point of our material reality and whatever lies beyond assuming it is non-material. As at this point classical physics break down and things act counter intuitive it may be that this point of closeness to nothingness is also the point at which we indirectly observe another realm that is non-material. As said what is beyond the quantum world, what produce the first incling of something. Because the big band had a beginning and produced space and time then perhaps something that is beyond space and time was responsible.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Contrary to what you say scientists still have no evidence for what consciousness is.
I think we have a fair idea what it is (and that how it feels is not a good reflection of how it works); what we're lacking is a good definition and a good explanation for how it's constituent processes produce the integrated experience.

Science cannot answer some of the questions that we as human’s experience with just chemical and electrical processes when it comes to the inner awareness of self. Things like the experince of pain seems to be more than just signals going to the brain.
Of course science can't alswer all the question - we've really only just started, but we've made extraordinary progress.

There's an inescapable disconnect between the objective description, e.g. the physical correlates, and the subjective experience, i.e. what it is like to be the entity displaying those physical correlates, experiencing qualia. They're fundamentally irreconcilable viewpoints, but people keep trying to reconcile them; it causes a lot of unnecessary confusion.

If it’s just about wires and signals, then why can't machines be conscious and have feelings.
It's a bit more than just wires and signals - the switches are crucial! But there's no reason in principle why machines couldn't be conscious; but they'd have to be structured appropriately (e.g. as embodied neuromorphic learning systems).

A biological and evolutionary explanation cannot account for everything experinced when it comes to consciousness.
Science can never account for every aspect of everything, it can only explain a small subset and provisionally assume the rest follows suit until shown otherwise. But there are plausible biological & evolutionary explanations for most aspects that have been considered. But again, objective explanation and subjective experience are incommensurate viewpoints; no-one can say why you experience red the way you do, because no-one but you knows what it's like for you; they generally assume it's similar to their own experience, which can be a mistake (e.g. colour-blindness).

We in fact have evidence for consciousness from several sources including entire journals dedicated to support of consciousness.
Tests done on the observer effect in quantum physics,
Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness
Experiment confirms quantum theory weirdness
That link described the measurement problem; in that context the 'observer' is any quantum system that interacts with ('measures') the target system causing decoherence. The only relevance to consciousness is that it takes a consciousness to discover and acknowledge that.


Famous scientists like John Archibald Wheeler, Christof Koch and Sir Roger Penrose also support consciousness.
The Universe May Be Conscious, Say Prominent Scientists
Sure, you can find a few mavericks that favour whatever view you want; but as they admit, they're speculating.

Tests showing people have some sort of existence that they can recall even after the brain has ceased all activity,
LIFE AFTER DEATH: Scientists reveal shock findings from groundbreaking study
LIFE AFTER DEATH: Scientists reveal shock findings from groundbreaking study
The Daily Express! - a great source (not). That's a 'report' of Dr. Sam Parnia's 'AWARE' study, previously discussed, which, if you remember, provided no good evidence that NDE's or OBEs were other than internally generated narratives, and were much less common than popularly thought. The report equates the heart stopping with 'death'... so, meh.

Other tests supporting consciousness
First evidence for higher state of consciousness found
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-04-evidence-higher-state-consciousness.html
Yes, psychedelic drugs increase global signal diversity in the brain. Did you actually read the article?

During the psychedelic state, the electrical activity of the brain is less predictable and less 'integrated' than during normal conscious wakefulness - as measured by 'global signal diversity'.

"Since this measure has already shown its value as a measure of 'conscious level', we can say that the psychedelic state appears as a higher 'level' of consciousness than normal - but only with respect to this specific mathematical measure."
Also seems like good evidence that consciousness is a product of brain activity :doh:

... the point is I am supporting consciousness as being beyond the physical brain and wires which is immaterial. I do not know how the interaction problem is determined and I guess this is something yet to be worked out.
Yeah; let me know when you can explain how consciousness exists and is immaterial, or when you have some evidence.

It may be a bit like how something can come from nothing. How do we explain how something comes from literally nothing.
I suggest it doesn't and didn't. Stuff has always been around (whether time began at the big bang or not). Religions don't have a problem with god(s) having always existed - despite any evidence they exist at all - so mere 'stuff', which clearly and obviously exists, shouldn't be a problem.

If you take all the descriptions of what we call life or existence beyond this world is you will have different descriptions from a transcendence, a world where gods are like people, to heaven. These cover a fair range of alternative realms but these are not scientific attempts at explaining a spiritual realm. If one existed and could be indirectly detected in our reality I would imagine it could be something along the lines of what we see in the quantum world as this takes things back to a point or near nothingness as far a this world is concerned where things begin to act strangly different and defy what we understand in classical cause and effect. So maybe that is the doorway to something non material becuase it is close to nothing physical.
Word salad. If you're saying a non-scientific description of an imaginary universe could be contrary to known science, that seems pretty obvious. I've yet to hear a description or explanation of 'non-material' or 'immaterial' that says anything more than what it isn't; I'd like to hear what it is - otherwise there's no practical difference between 'non-material' and 'non-existent'. Unless you can show otherwise?

The quantum world acts counter intuitive to what we see. This allows scientists to come up with ideas that also defy the way classical world works.
No, scientists observe properties & behaviours that are non-classical.

Becuase the quantum world offers strange behaviors like particles being able to affect each ofther at great distances, go through solid objects, materialize on observation that this is a glimpse at what lies beyond our material world and into a spiritual realm if you want to call it that or maybe call it the pre-quantum realm.
That's just daft - our universe is a quantum universe - it's not some weird alternate universe, it's ours. Look around you - that's what a quantum universe looks like at your scale.

Afterall what lies beyond the quantum world, something had to produce it.
Gibberish - so what 'lies beyond the quantum world'? (what lies indeed!), and why did something have to produce it? what basis have you for any of that?

Well it acts in defiance of the way the classical world works which to some may be another way of saying it acts supernatural. If a particle can materialise on observation when applied to our clasical world would seem magical and defy clasical physics.
Oh, please - this is just how your universe works. You're just unfamiliar with how it's put together. Like a 18th century watchmaker opening a quartz watch, you look inside and see something very different from what you expected, and call it 'supernatural'... Do you get vertigo walking around because the ground is 99.9% empty space? No; pull yourself together.

... I am talking about how a multiverse idea has been used to help explain away the fine tuning of the universe for intelligent life.
Like I said, I think most physicists are not comfortable with that explanation.

As mentioned heaven/spiritual realms may just be something that is beyond the quantum world.
So may fairyland, or any other fantasy.

The quantum world takes us to the point of nothingness which is close to the point of our material reality and whatever lies beyond assuming it is non-material. As at this point classical physics break down and things act counter intuitive it may be that this point of closeness to nothingness is also the point at which we indirectly observe another realm that is non-material. As said what is beyond the quantum world, what produce the first incling of something. Because the big band had a beginning and produced space and time then perhaps something that is beyond space and time was responsible.
You seem determined to invoke quantum woo to support your wishful thinking. I'll leave you to it.
 
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stevevw

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You seem determined to invoke quantum woo to support your wishful thinking. I'll leave you to it.
I was waiting for that remark. Mainstream scientists usually call anything outside the party lines as woo even though some of their own ideas borderline woo and they also cannot truly verify it as being invalid as their criteria for doing this is outside science. So calling it woo is more about personal scientific world view opinion then using the science method itself as the science method has no personal opinion and should be that it cannot comment on, know or measure these things as it is beyond the parameters of verification.

I did not want to get into a detailed debate about the support for things like consciousness and the like for pointing to non-materialism as it has been pointed out that this is probably not the right place which is my fault for bringing it up. It is not about scientifically verifying things as these ideas do step outside the scientific criteria for verification. My point was just like some mainstream ideas cannot ever be verified, the same can be said for ideas like consciousness which can also be said to be baased on facts from the quantum world. I am merely saying ideas like this should be considered whether from a scientific viewpoint or metaphysics or any other position. They seem to fit observations just as well if not better and just because expanding on these ideas does not fit with science does not mean they are invalid.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I was waiting for that remark. Mainstream scientists usually call anything outside the party lines as woo even though some of their own ideas borderline woo and they also cannot truly verify it as being invalid as their criteria for doing this is outside science. So calling it woo is more about personal scientific world view opinion then using the science method itself as the science method has no personal opinion and should be that it cannot comment on, know or measure these things as it is beyond the parameters of verification.
It's called quantum woo because it uses the concept of 'quantum weirdness' to make fantastical claims or speculations that are not remotely supported by the quantum formalism. It's presumably born out of wishful thinking and ignorance of quantum mechanics. That quantum mechanics seems weird does not justify invoking it for any arbitrary weirdness you can imagine or discover.
 
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