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The Fossil Record Proves Speciation, Not Evolution of Lifeforms Observed

stevevw

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evolutionary biologists have to have an understanding of geology, palaeontology detailed anatomy of the lineage they study, basic anatomy of lineages they don’t study, radiodating, geochemistry biochemistry, taphonomy, genetics and statistics. What makes you think that “ evolutionists” as you call them don’t understand the processes of evolution. By the way, I was given to understand that evolutionist is a job title in Britain, not a veiled insult
If an evolutionary biologist needs to have an understanding of all these associated areas then hardly anyone on this site could give a qualified response. Yet we see many make claims and are not questioned which I guess only adds to the confusion as to what evolution is really all about.

I do not use the word evolutionist in a derogative way. It is just an easier/condensed way to describe someone who supports Neo-Darwinism. I guess even Neo-Darwinism can be said to have connotations as well. But the word evolutionist is in dictionaries, philosophical sites and some sites that support evolution as well.
 
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Brightmoon

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If an evolutionary biologist needs to have an understanding of all these associated areas then hardly anyone on this site could give a qualified response. Yet we see many make claims and are not questioned which I guess only adds to the confusion as to what evolution is really all about.

I do not use the word evolutionist in a derogative way. It is just an easier/condensed way to describe someone who supports Neo-Darwinism. I guess even Neo-Darwinism can be said to have connotations as well. But the word evolutionist is in dictionaries, philosophical sites and some sites that support evolution as well.
.I understand how Science in general gets its answers . I understand that the career penalties for lying about scientific realities are so harsh that almost no one even tries it so I trust science publications. These are all things that anyone who has an accurate understanding of science learns by high school. Learning how to tell an opinion from a fact is something more people need to learn and they’re starting to do that in middle schools here as it cuts down on the sorts of silliness some people like to posit as scientific . Creation science is mostly pseudoscience nonsense. Jonathan Wells is a Moony and they have no problem with misrepresentation to convince people of their religious beliefs . They aren’t the only faith based liars-for-god.

It’s not your lack of credentials that the problem here . It’s the poor information from creationist sources and your lack of understanding of real science that we were questioning.
 
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Speedwell

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If an evolutionary biologist needs to have an understanding of all these associated areas then hardly anyone on this site could give a qualified response. Yet we see many make claims and are not questioned which I guess only adds to the confusion as to what evolution is really all about.

I do not use the word evolutionist in a derogative way. It is just an easier/condensed way to describe someone who supports Neo-Darwinism. I guess even Neo-Darwinism can be said to have connotations as well. But the word evolutionist is in dictionaries, philosophical sites and some sites that support evolution as well.
How do you know that all of us here are "Neo-Darwinists" by your definition? There is a distinct odor of straw about this discussion.

I don't know if I understand your point, really, but it seems a little similar to me as touting theological differences between Methodists and Baptists as the death knell of Christianity.
 
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Ophiolite

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If an evolutionary biologist needs to have an understanding of all these associated areas then hardly anyone on this site could give a qualified response.
I don't know about evolutionary biologists, but as a simple graduate geologist to properly understand and apply palaeontology we required a sound understanding of the fundamentals of geology, biology, detailed anatomy of representative lineages, and basic anatomy of many others, as well as the principles of age dating (absolute and relative), geochemistry, taphonomy, genetics and statistics. This should be sufficient to give a qualified response to the majority of challenges offered on this forum by Creationists. Why do you feel it isn't?


I do not use the word evolutionist in a derogative way. It is just an easier/condensed way to describe someone who supports Neo-Darwinism. I guess even Neo-Darwinism can be said to have connotations as well. But the word evolutionist is in dictionaries, philosophical sites and some sites that support evolution as well.
I've always been bemused and a little annoyed by those fellow evolutionists who object to the term. If Ernst Mayr, one of the fathers of the Modern Synthesis was comfortable with being an evolutionist, why do they object?

In regard to the term Neo-Darwinism and the ongoing development of (aka challenges to) that theory here's something I wrote some time ago in response to similar observations:

What we call something is, or at least should be, less important than what it is. Our understanding of evolutionary mechanisms is still far from complete and not fully integrated. Large steps have been taken over a century and a half. Is it important to mark those steps through different terminology? Important yes, but not necessarily essential.

Darwin's idea was accepted with surprising alacrity by the scientific community, supporting the claim by some that it was an idea whose time had come. (And Wallace’s independent derivation of the theory served to offer confirmation of that notion.) Yet by the turn of the century Darwinism was all but dead as people gravitated to mutation and the concepts of Mendel rediscovered by Bateman, de Vries and Corren. When the two concepts were fused in the 1930s and 40s did the resultant concept merit a new name? One could hardly call it Haldane/Huxley/Dhobzhanksy/ Fisher/Simpson/Stebbins/Wright/Mayrism, so the Modern Synthesis was born.

And now, more than half a century later, we've learnt even more about the mechanisms and processes, so much more that some people think a new name is in order. Is it?

I said at the outset that what we call something is, or at least should be, less important than what it is. But is this true? Darwin may have been the right man in the right place at the right time, but he ignited a revolution that is arguably of greater scientific importance than any other. His handful of principles still lies at the heart of evolutionary thought – descent with modification from a common ancestor. So my view is simple. Let's just call the current hypothesis and those that will develop in future, Darwinism. Direct, concise, effective.

And it has the secondary advantage that it will annoy the creationists.
 
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stevevw

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.I understand how Science in general gets its answers . I understand that the career penalties for lying about scientific realities are so harsh that almost no one even tries it so I trust science publications. These are all things that anyone who has an accurate understanding of science learns by high school. Learning how to tell an opinion from a fact is something more people need to learn and they’re starting to do that in middle schools here as it cuts down on the sorts of silliness some people like to posit as scientific . Creation science is mostly pseudoscience nonsense. Jonathan Wells is a Moony and they have no problem with misrepresentation to convince people of their religious beliefs . They aren’t the only faith based liars-for-god.

It’s not your lack of credentials that the problem here . It’s the poor information from creationist sources and your lack of understanding of real science that we were questioning.
But I am not citing any articles from religious cites even though that should not be a problem if using scientific support. The fact that you say the problem is that I am using creationists sources when I do not seem to point to a stereotyped view where some just assume everything that opposes evolution must be linked to creationism. Believe it or not, non-religious people also disagree with what the Standard theory says. And what is real science and who decides what it is? This seems like an arbitrary view and one that is open to interpretation where those in prominent positions seem to make the rules.

Another tactic I find unfairly used and a fallacy is that if a person disputes evolution they must not really understand things. In other words, rather than address why it is wrong with the scientific support, it is dismissed by discrediting the person as being dumb on the topic. What I have posted is only a repeat of what scientists have said and they have no association with religion. Rather than just dismiss the person as dumb on the subject how about give examples based on the science why you think the person is wrong and enter into a debate about the content. That way the truth can be determined and learnt.

This attitude is something that is also found in science generally where there is a discourse and mindset that the scientist's view is correct no matter what and everyone else is wrong. Any challenges are dismissed and ridiculed. Supporters of science then believe anything a scientist says because, well they are scientists and science is always correct because it only seeks the truth. To me, this is an example of the bias towards religion and the discourse that has been created about anything scientific being the truth.

The fact is those in prominent positions of science hold a lot of power and influence and can promote a certain view that is not necessarily true. Money can sway results in competition for funding and for government contracts influencing the end results. Most scientific papers are often found to be wrong which shows either sloppy, biased and even falsified work. So despite your ideal belief that scientists would never falsify their work the evidence shows it often happens. This also shows that people place a lot of faith in scientists and their results which can be wrong and is not much different from what they often say about religion.

'Professors eat their own young': how competition can stifle good science
'Professors eat their own young': how competition can stifle good science

Publish or perish culture encourages scientists to cut corners
Publish or perish culture encourages scientists to cut corners

An Epidemic of False Claims
An Epidemic of False Claims

 
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stevevw

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I don't know about evolutionary biologists, but as a simple graduate geologist to properly understand and apply palaeontology we required a sound understanding of the fundamentals of geology, biology, detailed anatomy of representative lineages, and basic anatomy of many others, as well as the principles of age dating (absolute and relative), geochemistry, taphonomy, genetics and statistics. This should be sufficient to give a qualified response to the majority of challenges offered on this forum by Creationists. Why do you feel it isn't?
I am not disputing that. All that knowledge would put a person in a good position to give qualified answers. My point was very few on this site have that yet we have many claims which are accepted on the evolutionary side that are never questioned. Yet anyone who disputes the standard theory based on religion or not have their creditials questioned and are made to jump through hoops to support what they say. This shows bias.

In regard to the term Neo-Darwinism and the ongoing development of (aka challenges to) that theory here's something I wrote some time ago in response to similar observations:

What we call something is, or at least should be, less important than what it is. Our understanding of evolutionary mechanisms is still far from complete and not fully integrated. Large steps have been taken over a century and a half. Is it important to mark those steps through different terminology? Important yes, but not necessarily essential.

Darwin's idea was accepted with surprising alacrity by the scientific community, supporting the claim by some that it was an idea whose time had come. (And Wallace’s independent derivation of the theory served to offer confirmation of that notion.) Yet by the turn of the century Darwinism was all but dead as people gravitated to mutation and the concepts of Mendel rediscovered by Bateman, de Vries and Corren. When the two concepts were fused in the 1930s and 40s did the resultant concept merit a new name? One could hardly call it Haldane/Huxley/Dhobzhanksy/ Fisher/Simpson/Stebbins/Wright/Mayrism, so the Modern Synthesis was born.

And now, more than half a century later, we've learnt even more about the mechanisms and processes, so much more that some people think a new name is in order. Is it?

I said at the outset that what we call something is, or at least should be, less important than what it is. But is this true? Darwin may have been the right man in the right place at the right time, but he ignited a revolution that is arguably of greater scientific importance than any other. His handful of principles still lies at the heart of evolutionary thought – descent with modification from a common ancestor. So my view is simple. Let's just call the current hypothesis and those that will develop in future, Darwinism. Direct, concise, effective.

And it has the secondary advantage that it will annoy the creationists.
When the theory was first formulated natural selection was the prominant idea that drove change even though it was disputed and not completely understood in how it actually worked in reality. It was a powerful idea becuase it makes sense logically but that was it. I think the name Darwinism can depict an idea that may have some truths and works for a time but like all ideas they may be superceded with further evidence such as with the Modern synthesis.

The Modern Theories main tenets of natural selection and random mutations may cover part of what is happening in how living things change but it is not the complete picture and as time has gone by and we learn more it is being placed in its proper context. Becuase it has been such a prominant idea some find it hard to deminsh its status. In the end just like the modern synthesis was formulated through science with the discovery of new information so will it change again. The problem is now some are not just saying it is a case of extending the current theory but a complete change is needed revises the place of the main tenets of Darwinism.
 
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VirOptimus

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I am not disputing that. All that knowledge would put a person in a good position to give qualified answers. My point was very few on this site have that yet we have many claims which are accepted on the evolutionary side that are never questioned. Yet anyone who disputes the standard theory based on religion or not have their creditials questioned and are made to jump through hoops to support what they say. This shows bias.

When the theory was first formulated natural selection was the prominant idea that drove change even though it was disputed and not completely understood in how it actually worked in reality. It was a powerful idea becuase it makes sense logically but that was it. I think the name Darwinism can depict an idea that may have some truths and works for a time but like all ideas they may be superceded with further evidence such as with the Modern synthesis.

The Modern Theories main tenets of natural selection and random mutations may cover part of what is happening in how living things change but it is not the complete picture and as time has gone by and we learn more it is being placed in its proper context. Becuase it has been such a prominant idea some find it hard to deminsh its status. In the end just like the modern synthesis was formulated through science with the discovery of new information so will it change again. The problem is now some are not just saying it is a case of extending the current theory but a complete change is needed revises the place of the main tenets of Darwinism.

No there are no need for a total revision of the ToE. Learn the science.

You are just disputing the science because its against your religious faith.
 
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stevevw

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How do you know that all of us here are "Neo-Darwinists" by your definition? There is a distinct odor of straw about this discussion.

I don't know if I understand your point, really, but it seems a little similar to me as touting theological differences between Methodists and Baptists as the death knell of Christianity.
There is only one meaning for Neo-Darwinism and that is what I have been addressing. There is also a distinction between the (SET) Standard Evolutionary Theory (Modern Synthesis or Neo-Darwinism) and the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis (EES). Though there is the debate between supporters of the EES as to whether this means an extension of (SET or a new a replacement. So these are fundamental differences. This would be more like comparing JW to Baptists which have fundamental differences.
 
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stevevw

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No there are no need for a total revision of the ToE. Learn the science.

You are just disputing the science because its against your religious faith.
Thats a non sequitur fallacy. It does not follow that if someone disputes evolution it is becuase of their religious belief. Besides I have told you that it does not matter what the version of evolution is, it will not make any difference to my faith in God. I do not know how exactly God was injected into how life was created as to whether He did this through a single organism and evolution or through several original creatures created and all life was evolved from this. The important thing for me is that God was involved in some way, shape or form and that life from non-life is not possible.

You keep telling me there is no need for a total revision of the Standard Evolutionary Theory (SET) but maybe this is just your opinion because scientists who support the Extented Evolutionary Theory (EES) think it does need a revision and in fact a change to the core logic of evolution, a new way of thinking about evolution and the formulation of new hypothesis.

Why an extended evolutionary synthesis is necessary


The resulting theoretical framework differs from the latter in its core logic and predictive capacities. Whereas the Modern Synthesis theory and its various amendments concentrate on genetic and adaptive variation in populations, the extended framework emphasizes the role of constructive processes, ecological interactions and systems dynamics in the evolution of organismal complexity as well as its social and cultural conditions. Single-level and unilinear causation is replaced by multilevel and reciprocal causation. Among other consequences, the extended framework overcomes many of the limitations of traditional gene-centric explanation and entails a revised understanding of the role of natural selection in the evolutionary process.

5. Consequences


The EES is not a simple, unfounded call for a new theory but has become an ongoing project for integrating the theoretically relevant concepts that have arisen from multiple fields of evolutionary biology. Although the EES recognizes the fundaments of the classical MS theory, it differs in its interpretation of the role of some of its elements and integrates new components, such as constructive processes of development, multiple inheritance mechanisms, niche reciprocity, as well as behavioural and cultural elements (on which this overview did not dwell much, but see other contributions to this issue). It is unavoidable to notice that an integration of these concepts means not a simple add-on of a few peripheral notions to the MS model without any effects on its core logic. Rather, the EES establishes a new structure of the theoretical evolutionary framework that goes beyond the reductionist and gene-centred perspective of the past. It represents a different way of thinking about evolution, historically rooted in the organicist tradition [108]. Its predictions permit the derivation of new hypotheses and thus inspire novel and progressive research in evolutionary biology and adjacent fields.
Why an extended evolutionary synthesis is necessary
 
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VirOptimus

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Thats a non sequitur fallacy. It does not follow that if someone disputes evolution it is becuase of their religious belief. Besides I have told you that it does not matter what the version of evolution is, it will not make any difference to my faith in God. I do not know how exactly God was injected into how life was created as to whether He did this through a single organism and evolution or through several original creatures created and all life was evolved from this. The important thing for me is that God was involved in some way, shape or form and that life from non-life is not possible.

You keep telling me there is no need for a total revision of the Standard Evolutionary Theory (SET) but maybe this is just your opinion because scientists who support the Extented Evolutionary Theory (EES) think it does need a revision and in fact a change to the core logic of evolution, a new way of thinking about evolution and the formulation of new hypothesis.

Why an extended evolutionary synthesis is necessary


The resulting theoretical framework differs from the latter in its core logic and predictive capacities. Whereas the Modern Synthesis theory and its various amendments concentrate on genetic and adaptive variation in populations, the extended framework emphasizes the role of constructive processes, ecological interactions and systems dynamics in the evolution of organismal complexity as well as its social and cultural conditions. Single-level and unilinear causation is replaced by multilevel and reciprocal causation. Among other consequences, the extended framework overcomes many of the limitations of traditional gene-centric explanation and entails a revised understanding of the role of natural selection in the evolutionary process.

5. Consequences


The EES is not a simple, unfounded call for a new theory but has become an ongoing project for integrating the theoretically relevant concepts that have arisen from multiple fields of evolutionary biology. Although the EES recognizes the fundaments of the classical MS theory, it differs in its interpretation of the role of some of its elements and integrates new components, such as constructive processes of development, multiple inheritance mechanisms, niche reciprocity, as well as behavioural and cultural elements (on which this overview did not dwell much, but see other contributions to this issue). It is unavoidable to notice that an integration of these concepts means not a simple add-on of a few peripheral notions to the MS model without any effects on its core logic. Rather, the EES establishes a new structure of the theoretical evolutionary framework that goes beyond the reductionist and gene-centred perspective of the past. It represents a different way of thinking about evolution, historically rooted in the organicist tradition [108]. Its predictions permit the derivation of new hypotheses and thus inspire novel and progressive research in evolutionary biology and adjacent fields.
Why an extended evolutionary synthesis is necessary

Tl, dr.

I stand by my assesment.
 
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Speedwell

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Thats a non sequitur fallacy. It does not follow that if someone disputes evolution it is becuase of their religious belief. Besides I have told you that it does not matter what the version of evolution is, it will not make any difference to my faith in God. I do not know how exactly God was injected into how life was created as to whether He did this through a single organism and evolution or through several original creatures created and all life was evolved from this. The important thing for me is that God was involved in some way, shape or form and that life from non-life is not possible.
It is important to me as well that God was involved. But according to what I was taught, what I believe, God's involvement transcends the mere material causality which science studies--whether neo-Darwinism is correct or EES or neither one. I have no theological argument against neo-Darwinsm or EES, or even a naturalistic abiogenesis, and I don't think that EES will make it "easier" for God to be involved.
I stand by what I posted and second what others have posted: The comparison to a theological dispute between Methodists and Baptists is apt.
 
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stevevw

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It is important to me as well that God was involved. But according to what I was taught, what I believe, God's involvement transcends the mere material causality which science studies--whether neo-Darwinism is correct or EES or neither one. I have no theological argument against neo-Darwinsm or EES, or even a naturalistic abiogenesis, and I don't think that EES will make it "easier" for God to be involved.
I stand by what I posted and second what others have posted: The comparison to a theological dispute between Methodists and Baptists is apt.
I agree Gods involvement transcends the material but He also has some involvement in the material as well. I think it is more to do with the physical laws that govern life rather than the physical itself and how it came about that is more important.
 
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Speedwell

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I agree Gods involvement transcends the material but He also has some involvement in the material as well.
Those of us who believe in such things call them "miracles."
I think it is more to do with the physical laws that govern life rather than the physical itself and how it came about that is more important.
So you are a Theistic Evolutionist? You should have no beef with the naturalistic theories of science.
 
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stevevw

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Those of us who believe in such things call them "miracles.
But how exactly those miracles happened in another matter. If God set in motion evolution or put in place the laws or code that drives life that this is not a miracle. I do not know how this exactly happened but I believe had to have happened at the beginning because of all life no matter what stage needed those laws.
"So you are a Theistic Evolutionist? You should have no beef with the naturalistic theories of science.
I am not necessarily a theistic evolutionist as I do not support the Standard theory the way it is presented though I have no problems with natural processes. The EES also includes development and construction processes. As well as ecological interactions, the relationships living things have with each other and their environments and their behaviour. All these change the fundamental tenets of the standard theory including natural selections role and introduce self-organising and guided processes that do not rely on blind and random natural self-creating processes.
 
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Speedwell

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But how exactly those miracles happened in another matter. If God set in motion evolution or put in place the laws or code that drives life that this is not a miracle. I do not know how this exactly happened but I believe had to have happened at the beginning because of all life no matter what stage needed those laws.
Those laws were in place "from the beginning"
I am not necessarily a theistic evolutionist as I do not support the Standard theory the way it is presented...
A theistic evolutionist need not "support the Standard theory the way it is presented." A theistic evolutionist provisionally accepts whatever the current theory may be.
...though I have no problems with natural processes.
Then I am puzzled as to what it is you do have a problem with.
The EES also includes development and construction processes. As well as ecological interactions, the relationships living things have with each other and their environments and their behaviour. All these change the fundamental tenets of the standard theory including natural selections role and introduce self-organising and guided processes that do not rely on blind and random natural self-creating processes.
Now I have no idea what you are talking about. In the same sentence you praise EES for "self-organizing processes" which you claim Modern Synthesis lacks, then condemn Modern Synthesis for relying on "self-creating processes," which sounds like the same thing to me. The only thing I can figure out is that you dislike Modern Synthesis because it is "blind and random" where EES is not. But if so, it would only indicate that you understood neither Modern Synthesis nor EES. What do you mean?
 
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stevevw

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Those laws were in place "from the beginning"
I agree.
A theistic evolutionist need not "support the Standard theory the way it is presented." A theistic evolutionist provisionally accepts whatever the current theory may be.
But the current theory is the Standard theory at this point in time. I think peoples understanding of evolution will be varied no matter what the current theory may be. I don't think many people who support theistic evolution really understand specifically how evolution fits in with their beliefs. Some just want to have a bet each way because they cannot reconcile the science with the belief in a creator God.

Despite people saying it is all about the science, it is also about personal beliefs. For most, I do not think they can honestly know how exactly God intervened. Most people believe in evolution of some sort even if they do not support theistic evolution. It is a matter of what understanding they have. The common one is micro and macroevolution though evolutionists will say that macroevolution is just the accumulation f micro events. But nearly everyone supports microevolution as we see this with things like dog breeding.

Then I am puzzled as to what it is you do have a problem with. Now I have no idea what you are talking about. In the same sentence you praise EES for "self-organizing processes" which you claim Modern Synthesis lacks, then condemn Modern Synthesis for relying on "self-creating processes," which sounds like the same thing to me. The only thing I can figure out is that you dislike Modern Synthesis because it is "blind and random" where EES is not. But if so, it would only indicate that you understood neither Modern Synthesis nor EES. What do you mean?
I have never said that there are no natural processes involved nor that Natural selection is not a force in evolution. It is all a matter of degree and emphasis. Whereas many supporters of the Standard theory especially prominent ones like Dawkins will give natural selection all the credit and emphasize naturalistic processes they do this at the expense of other influences such as from the EES.

When these other influences are factored in it puts things in better context where natural processes like natural selection are just one of many influences and in some cases either bypassed or diminished. Natural selection may come in after the variation has been created by these other guided or constructed processes and refine things. So both natural and self-organizing processes can play their role.
 
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VirOptimus

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-snip-

Natural selection may come in after the variation has been created by these other guided or constructed processes and refine things. So both natural and self-organizing processes can play their role.

Guided? There is no evidence for anything being guided, thats religion and not scientific.
 
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stevevw

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Guided? There is no evidence for anything being guided, thats religion and not scientific.
I am only using the language that scientists have used to describe the processes associated with the EES. According to the EES variation to creatures and their environments can be directed or guided towards well suited or needed changes from developmental processes, niche construction and inclusive inheritance rather than Natural selection trying to find the well suited and right variation of features and change from many physical and environmental possibilities.

SET explains such parallels as convergent evolution: similar environmental conditions select for random genetic variation with equivalent results. This account requires extraordinary coincidence to explain the multiple parallel forms that evolved independently in each lake. A more succinct hypothesis is that developmental bias and natural selection work together4, 5. Rather than selection being free to traverse across any physical possibility, it is guided along specific routes opened up by the processes of development5, 6.
Does evolutionary theory need a rethink?

In the EES, developmental processes, operating through developmental bias, inclusive inheritance and niche construction, share responsibility for the direction and rate of evolution, the origin of character variation and organism-environment complementarity.


From this standpoint, too much causal significance is afforded to genes and selection, and not enough to the developmental processes that create novel variants, contribute to heredity, generate adaptive fit, and thereby direct the course of evolution.

The extended evolutionary synthesis: its structure, assumptions and predictions
 
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Speedwell

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I agree. But the current theory is the Standard theory at this point in time.
So what? We all understand that scientific theories are only provisional and subject to change. The EES people have interesting ideas; maybe some of them will pan out and become part of the "Standard" theory as well.
I think peoples understanding of evolution will be varied no matter what the current theory may be. I don't think many people who support theistic evolution really understand specifically how evolution fits in with their beliefs. Some just want to have a bet each way because they cannot reconcile the science with the belief in a creator God.
No, they're theistic evolutionists precisely because they can reconcile the science with belief in a creator God.
 
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