• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Fossil Record- As God Would Have Made It Through Time

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,038
7,403
31
Wales
✟424,266.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
Assumption and speculation, in layman' terms, are revealed in other synonymous terms and narratives that indicate assumption and speculation.

You're not answering the questions.
Do you understand what those terms (assumption and speculation) mean in a scientific article? Hint: not what they mean in the laymen's terms.
And:
You have admitted that you have no understanding of evolution, so why do you think that you are in anyway educated to say that it is 'held together by speculation and assumption'?

And I WILL keep asking these questions until you do answer them or until you admit that you can't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tas8831
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You're not answering the questions.
Do you understand what those terms (assumption and speculation) mean in a scientific article? Hint: not what they mean in the laymen's terms.
And:
You have admitted that you have no understanding of evolution, so why do you think that you are in anyway educated to say that it is 'held together by speculation and assumption'?

And I WILL keep asking these questions until you do answer them or until you admit that you can't.

I've answered them, to my satisfaction.
 
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,038
7,403
31
Wales
✟424,266.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
I've answered them, to my satisfaction.

Not to me and I doubt to anyone else's satisfaction. If you're asked a question by someone, you don't get to decide what is a satisfactory answer or not.
Do you understand what those terms (assumption and speculation) mean in a scientific article? Hint: not what they mean in the laymen's terms.
And:
You have admitted that you have no understanding of evolution, so why do you think that you are in anyway educated to say that it is 'held together by speculation and assumption'?

Either actually make a serious attempt to answer them, or sack up and admit that you can't answer them.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Not to me and I doubt to anyone else's satisfaction. If you're asked a question by someone, you don't get to decide what is a satisfactory answer or not.
Do you understand what those terms (assumption and speculation) mean in a scientific article? Hint: not what they mean in the laymen's terms.
And:
You have admitted that you have no understanding of evolution, so why do you think that you are in anyway educated to say that it is 'held together by speculation and assumption'?

Either actually make a serious attempt to answer them, or sack up and admit that you can't answer them.

I don't think you actually understand what you're asking the uninitiated and the unbeliever to accept concerning evolution. You are proposing that we went from basically bare rock to the entire biosphere; the entire global ecosystem as well as other supporting systems such as weather and climate; starting with a microscopically small primitive (but highly complex and organized) organism, whose origin is unknown, with no plan or design, in an orderly progression through multiple global cataclysms over billions of years. Pretty tough sell.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,038
7,403
31
Wales
✟424,266.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
I actually don't think you understand what you're asking the uninitiated/unbelievers to believe concerning evolution. You are proposing that we went from basically bare rock to the entire biosphere; the entire global ecosystem and other supporting systems such as weather and climate; starting with a microscopically small primitive organism, whose origin is unknown, and no plan or design, in an orderly progression through multiple global cataclysms.

What I'm asking you to do is to answer my questions:
Do you understand what those terms (assumption and speculation) mean in a scientific article? Hint: not what they mean in the laymen's terms.
And:
You have admitted that you have no understanding of evolution, so why do you think that you are in anyway educated to say that it is 'held together by speculation and assumption'?

Either actually make a serious attempt to answer them, or sack up and admit that you can't answer them.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
What I'm asking you to do is to answer my questions:
Do you understand what those terms (assumption and speculation) mean in a scientific article? Hint: not what they mean in the laymen's terms.
And:
You have admitted that you have no understanding of evolution, so why do you think that you are in anyway educated to say that it is 'held together by speculation and assumption'?

Either actually make a serious attempt to answer them, or sack up and admit that you can't answer them.

There is no 'serious' answer. The ToE is one giant speculation riddled with assumptions. The starting premise is flawed, therefore the conclusion is flawed, regardless of the veracity of the science within it.
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
9,211
10,099
✟282,295.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
There is no 'serious' answer. The ToE is one giant speculation riddled with assumptions. The starting premise is flawed, therefore the conclusion is flawed, regardless of the veracity of the science within it.
There is no serious answer? You mean to say your understanding of the terms "assumption" and "speculation", as used in scientific writing, is not serious? I don't even understand what you can mean by such a statement. I do know your repeated refusal to answer a very simple question is devious, passive-aggressive behaviour at its worst. I thought even retired Alpha males were meant to have courage.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

Warden_of_the_Storm

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2015
15,038
7,403
31
Wales
✟424,266.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
There is no 'serious' answer. The ToE is one giant speculation riddled with assumptions. The starting premise is flawed, therefore the conclusion is flawed, regardless of the veracity of the science within it.

Answer my questions:
Do you understand what those terms (assumption and speculation) mean in a scientific article? Hint: not what they mean in the laymen's terms.
And:
You have admitted that you have no understanding of evolution, so why do you think that you are in anyway educated to say that it is 'held together by speculation and assumption'?

Either actually make a serious attempt to answer them, or sack up and admit that you can't answer them.
 
Upvote 0

theQuincunx5

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2018
1,626
1,392
61
Seattle
✟55,246.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I don't think you actually understand what you're asking the uninitiated and the unbeliever to accept concerning evolution. You are proposing that we went from basically bare rock to the entire biosphere; the entire global ecosystem as well as other supporting systems such as weather and climate; starting with a microscopically small primitive (but highly complex and organized) organism, whose origin is unknown, with no plan or design, in an orderly progression through multiple global cataclysms over billions of years. Pretty tough sell.

Not really a tough sell to me. Granted I have a PhD in geology with 20+ years worth of chemistry research experience, so I'd say it actually kinda makes sense.

How could you and I come to such dramatically different conclusions?
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Not really a tough sell to me. Granted I have a PhD in geology with 20+ years worth of chemistry research experience, so I'd say it actually kinda makes sense.

How could you and I come to such dramatically different conclusions?

I could give you a wild guess.
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
9,211
10,099
✟282,295.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Not really a tough sell to me. Granted I have a PhD in geology with 20+ years worth of chemistry research experience, so I'd say it actually kinda makes sense.

How could you and I come to such dramatically different conclusions?
Well, it's obvious that you are cheating. You are using evidence and facts and observations and experiment and hypothesis testing and logic and peer review and rigorous questioning and analysis and synthesis and critical reviews and other such abominations. It's no surprise you have been deceived in your thinking! :)
 
Upvote 0

Skreeper

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2017
2,471
2,683
32
Germany
✟91,021.00
Country
Germany
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
There is no 'serious' answer. The ToE is one giant speculation riddled with assumptions. The starting premise is flawed, therefore the conclusion is flawed, regardless of the veracity of the science within it.

Just replace ToE with Creationism in your little speech and then you're finally correct.
 
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
And:
You have admitted that you have no understanding of evolution, so why do you think that you are in anyway educated to say that it is 'held together by speculation and assumption'?


On the other hand, he has claimed that he can see design in anatomy, but thinks that that the tortuous course of the recurrent laryngeal nerve is 'good design.'

And he also thinks that nerve impulses for speech are generated in the 'gut', so...

Dunning-Kruger poster child?
 
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
The ToE is one giant speculation riddled with assumptions. The starting premise is flawed, therefore the conclusion is flawed, regardless of the veracity of the science within it.

Do grace us all with your 135 IQ take on the 'starting premise' for evolution such that it is flawed - just make sure you do not claim that the starting premise for evolution is abiogenesis. Because that is wrong, and to claim otherwise would be an admission of ignorance (or deception?).

And then you can perhaps explain all the assumption and speculation outlined here:

I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "




Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."



Then perhaps you can explain how 2 identical humans and animals produced the extant diversity we see WITHOUT evolution - which, by the way, the truly intelligent creationists admit must occur, and occur a LOT.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Not really a tough sell to me. Granted I have a PhD in geology with 20+ years worth of chemistry research experience, so I'd say it actually kinda makes sense.

How could you and I come to such dramatically different conclusions?

I really don't know, but our prisons are full of innocent people put there by experts who carefully examined the evidence but came to the wrong conclusion.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Then perhaps you can explain how 2 identical humans and animals produced the extant diversity we see WITHOUT evolution - which, by the way, the truly intelligent creationists admit must occur, and occur a LOT.

How have man and animals evolved, since Genesis 1?
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
On the other hand, he has claimed that he can see design in anatomy, but thinks that that the tortuous course of the recurrent laryngeal nerve is 'good design.'

And he also thinks that nerve impulses for speech are generated in the 'gut', so...

Dunning-Kruger poster child?

I said certain vocal reactions, not speech.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

Tell me more about the mice as we are 60 percent mouse. Do we have a mouse in our ancestry? And if 97 percent of our DNA is nonfunctional how much chimp DNA is nonfunctional. If the same than the functional similarities must be found in the remaining 3 percent, correct? Or is the equation loaded with the 97 percent nonfunctional DNA?

Humans, Chimps Not as Closely Related as Thought?

"In contrast, the DNA of humans and mice is only around 60 percent similar."
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: tas8831
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,976
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,212.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You tell us, how many of the current species we see today were present in Gen 1?

Are you suggesting that the passenger pigeon was unfit for survival?
 
Upvote 0