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The Fossil Record- As God Would Have Made It Through Time

Heissonear

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Speedwell is right . In Public schools it’s against the law to teach a religious belief in the USA unless it has an overwhelming secular purpose. It’s one of the Lemon tests. This why claims that evolution is a religious belief failed to impress SCOTUS
Sounds like you need to be schooled on the Constitution.

The separation of church and state was to prevent past religious tarrany in religous freedom from tarrant religious rulers.

What those without God in the world have chisseled is no religion can be presented, only secular.

This has produced corruption - schools without God allowed. A modern civilization teaching system based on atheism. Push religous freedom and beliefs out of the schools, only Scientism and Humanism allowed.

Pretty simple to learn and realize when being raised in such.

But back to the OP.

There are no excuses allowed for zip fossil records of one lifeform sequentially in the strata anatomically and morphologically changing into another lifeform.

Evolutionists do not like this physical reality.

It shows evolution is not scientifically supported by physical evidence. It too is a belief-ism.

In fact the this lack of proof for evolution shows how God would produce the fossil record - by only observations of Kinds and their variability, like in dogs and people.

The rock record shows fossils as Kinds. 100% physical evidence in every fossil we see. Again, no fossils sequences showing one lifeform morphologically changing into another lifeform. Zero.

From 100% evidence of Kinds Created by God (per Genesis) verses 0% showing evolution, as taught.
 
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Speedwell

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Sounds like you need to be schooled on the Constitution.

The speration of church and state was to prevent past religious tarrany in religous freedom from tarrant religious rulers.

What those witout God in the world have chisseled is no religion can be presented, only secular.

This has produced corruption - schools without God allowed. A civilization teaching system based on atheism. Push religous freedom and right out of the schools, only Scientism and Humanism allowed.

Pretty simple to learn and realize when being raised in such.
How would you do it? How would you put God back in schools? Be specific. I say let the Catholics take it over. They're the biggest denomination anyway--the kids could say the Rosary before class and the Angelus at lunchtime, and we wouldn't even have to stop teaching evolution.
 
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HitchSlap

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Not to burst your bubble, but Evolution is not founded on observable evidence, but on best estimate speculation and belief.

As an evolutionist you should know this and tell people the truth. There was a time as an evolutionist I woke up to this.

Honesty may have been left behind in many who "accumulate knowledge". Seeking truth is the centerpoint, not accumulating knowledge into a reasoned theory.

The fossil proves evolution never happened. Best estimate physical science says "it should have" - as filling in the blanks.

But such is not wise in a God Created world. And unwise to make Science an Idol to live by and think science is the way to Reality, leaving God to the side, or out of all "educated" classrooms.
Incorrect.
 
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Heissonear

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. Because along with the fossils we’ve got developmental info, and anatomical info , genetics, biochemical info, geological info etc Even with just fossil info, there are fine graded lineages that show macroevolution over time.
You are trying to fool yourself?

When I faced this as an educated evolutionist I did not try to tap dance around the fact and muddy the water. Evolution has zero evidence in the fossil record. No unearthed sequences of fossils morphologically changing from one lifeform into another.
 
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Heissonear

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How would you do it? How would you put God back in schools? Be specific. I say let the Catholics take it over. They're the biggest denomination anyway--the kids could say the Rosary before class and the Angelus at lunchtime, and we wouldn't even have to stop teaching evolution.
To each his own.

Do you have money at hand with "in God we trust".

Then same in school allowed. Let it be worked out by tolerance. Constitutional, having religious freedom in school. Not Humanism and Naturalism. Separation of church and state never meant that by the Founding Fathers, only chisseling of words by godless activists.
 
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Heissonear

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How would you do it? How would you put God back in schools? Be specific. I say let the Catholics take it over. They're the biggest denomination anyway--the kids could say the Rosary before class and the Angelus at lunchtime, and we wouldn't even have to stop teaching evolution.
Now back to the OP.

Evolution lacks physical evidence. What is taught has zero evidence out of billions of fossils unearthed.
 
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Brightmoon

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Cerion species of mollusks, which info I’ve given you before. C excelsior is now extinct but it evolved into third Cerion species after hybridization with a second species. This also happens very commonly in plants (both bread and macaroni wheat) and has happened at least twice in humans without speciation but the mollusks are a fossil species
 
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HitchSlap

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Speedwell

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To each his own.

Do you have money at hand with "in God we trust".

Then same in school allowed. Let it be worked out by tolerance. Constitutional, having religious freedom in school. Not Humanism and Naturalism.
That's what we have in schools now--religious freedom. No child has someone else's religion imposed on him. Teaching biblical creationism in science classes would be a religious imposition.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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It's funny Heissonear's only response to any sort of questioning on his position is just to stick his fingers in his ears and go "There is no evidence! There is no evidence!" repeatedly.
Because that's ALL HE DOES.
 
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Jimmy D

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The poster is the topic?

I thought the fossil record was the topic, which is why I questioned your motives for ignoring posts which show the OP to be contrary to the scientific consensus.

Try again, about what the OP presents -

I will, maybe you can be polite enough to respond this time....



300px-Equine_evolution.jpg

300px-Horseevolution.png

images

75e5dc_c61764a105474e4e9f1218b4cecf2e4b.jpg

i-27fc09cf4089f3e9c3948b7c3800f352-horse-evolution-textbook.JPG


Evolution of the horse - Wikipedia

...................................................

208a55980d1458a9ac0be6c11cc563cd--baleen-whales-balaenoptera.jpg

whale_evo.jpg


4892c2cc8f610d9396dc22df489dd29e.jpg
4892c2cc8f610d9396dc22df489dd29e.jpg

Evolution-of-Whales.jpg


Evolution of whales

...............................................................

out of billions of fossils there is not one sequence showing morphological changes of one lifeform changing into another lifeform.

Zero.

None.

As the few examples above (and those posted by other members) demonstrate, that is not true. Unless of course you're going to spring your little trick caveat at the end there about "lifeforms" and demand to see some sort of transition that wouldn't actually exist in nature.

What that means is the primary support and proof that evolution occurred by factual physical evidence is missing.

I didn't realize that the fossil record was the primary support for the TOE, who told you that, your Pastor?

As a former evolutionist I had to face this fact. Evolution is a reasoned best estimate at best by earth scientists. And it is speculation to make a Tree of Life diagram of branching of lifeforms through time. Pure speculation. No evidence to diagram such.

Why don't evolutionists face up?

And yet I've never read anything on these forums from creationists that stands up to scrutiny, just wishful thinking and in many cases dishonesty. I don't want to go off topic but you bought up the "tree of life" but are you aware of how and why phylogenetic trees are constructed?
I only have a limited, superficial knowledge so maybe you could explain how they are based purely on speculation?
 
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xianghua

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I thought the fossil record was the topic, which is why I questioned your motives for ignoring posts which show the OP to be contrary to the scientific consensus.



I will, maybe you can be polite enough to respond this time....



300px-Equine_evolution.jpg

300px-Horseevolution.png

images

75e5dc_c61764a105474e4e9f1218b4cecf2e4b.jpg

i-27fc09cf4089f3e9c3948b7c3800f352-horse-evolution-textbook.JPG


Evolution of the horse - Wikipedia

...................................................

208a55980d1458a9ac0be6c11cc563cd--baleen-whales-balaenoptera.jpg

whale_evo.jpg


4892c2cc8f610d9396dc22df489dd29e.jpg
4892c2cc8f610d9396dc22df489dd29e.jpg

Evolution-of-Whales.jpg


Evolution of whales

...............................................................



As the few examples above (and those posted by other members) demonstrate, that is not true. Unless of course you're going to spring your little trick caveat at the end there about "lifeforms" and demand to see some sort of transition that wouldn't actually exist in nature.



I didn't realize that the fossil record was the primary support for the TOE, who told you that, your Pastor?



And yet I've never read anything on these forums from creationists that stands up to scrutiny, just wishful thinking and in many cases dishonesty. I don't want to go off topic but you bought up the "tree of life" but are you aware of how and why phylogenetic trees are constructed?
I only have a limited, superficial knowledge so maybe you could explain how they are based purely on speculation?

like this one?;

images


(image from Focum Desenvolvimento | São Paulo)
 
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tas8831

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Sounds like you need to be schooled on the Constitution.

May be - do you know of anyone that can tellus about the "well regulated militia"?
The separation of church and state was to prevent past religious tarrany in religous freedom from tarrant religious rulers.

Yes - got to watch out for those tarrants.

You claim to be a paleontologist or geologist of some sort, right?

What those without God in the world have chisseled is no religion can be presented, only secular.

This has produced corruption - schools without God allowed.

How is that corrupt? Is this not in line with what YOU claimed above - to prevent religious tYranNy?

Is it not tYranNical to force children to be indoctrinated in a particular sect of Christianity, when the religious traditions of their families might be different?

Is THAT not tyrannical???

Why is it that Christian evangelical types are really little more than fascists in religionists' clothing?


A modern civilization teaching system based on atheism. Push religous freedom and beliefs out of the schools, only Scientism and Humanism allowed.

Pretty simple to learn and realize when being raised in such.

But back to the OP.

Cool - you were making even less sense on that than you did in the OP...
There are no excuses allowed for zip fossil records of one lifeform sequentially in the strata anatomically and morphologically changing into another lifeform.

Evolutionists do not like this physical reality.

It shows evolution is not scientifically supported by physical evidence. It too is a belief-ism.

In fact the this lack of proof for evolution shows how God would produce the fossil record - by only observations of Kinds and their variability, like in dogs and people.

The rock record shows fossils as Kinds. 100% physical evidence in every fossil we see. Again, no fossils sequences showing one lifeform morphologically changing into another lifeform. Zero.

From 100% evidence of Kinds Created by God (per Genesis) verses 0% showing evolution, as taught.
Now THAT is funny stuff - you apparently do not understand that if the fossil record represents creation, then the flood story is false.

Surely a genius like you will understand why?

It is almost as if you set out to ignore refutations of your simplistic tripe - and all the while,m you are 100% incapable of providing even ONE little bit of evidence supportive of your special creation beliefs.

Such hubristic hypocrisy.
 
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tas8831

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tas8831

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And it is speculation to make a Tree of Life diagram of branching of lifeforms through time. Pure speculation. No evidence to diagram such.

Such an odd bit of disinformation.

But speculation, you say?




I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "




Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."



As a supposed former evolutionist that thinks this is all speculation (which, of course, really only means that you are 100% ignorant of how these things are done, as are nearly all creationists), I cannot wait to see your scientific criticism.

I'm betting though, that if you reply at all, it will be with some condescending hubris nonsense and a bible verse.

Like pretty much all of your posts


Why don't evolutionists face up?
Irony meter just blew up...
 
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OldWiseGuy

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How would you do it? How would you put God back in schools? Be specific. I say let the Catholics take it over. They're the biggest denomination anyway--the kids could say the Rosary before class and the Angelus at lunchtime, and we wouldn't even have to stop teaching evolution.

The best way to put God back in the schools is to teach the kids that they aren't the "little angels" that they, their parents and teachers constantly lead them to believe they are. Place the moral onus on them to behave like decent human beings, sit down, shut up, and engage with the teacher to learn what is being taught. Also point out that many of them will fail, die young, go to jail, go nuts, fall into poverty, get or get someone pregnant out of wedlock, etc, etc, etc, just as every 'class' before them has done. And that they will likely become victims of the 'world' because of their own greed and stupidity long before any of them bring meaningful change to it.

That would be a good start.
 
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tas8831

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The best way to put God back in the schools is to teach the kids that they aren't the "little angels" that they, their parents and teachers constantly lead them to believe they are. Place the moral onus on them to behave like decent human beings, sit down, shut up, and engage with the teacher to learn what is being taught. Also point out that many of them will fail, die young, go to jail, go nuts, fall into poverty, get or get someone pregnant out of wedlock, etc, etc, etc, just as every 'class' before them has done. And that they will likely become victims of the 'world' because of their own greed and stupidity long before any of them bring meaningful change to it.

That would be a good start.

I actually agree with you (well, except for the god part).

I am unsure why the antics you refer to are so often blamed on 'taking god out of schools'. God was never taken out of schools - people pray all the time. What was - rightly - taken out of schools is coercive, sectarian, administrator or teacher led prayer.

I served on a local school board for almost a decade, and in terms of disciplinary problems that ended up on the board's agenda (expulsions, weapons at school, stalking, etc.), I don't recall a single kid that was NOT a Christian, or whose family were church-going folks (it is a small town, everyone knows everyone). In fact, one of the more memorable cases was that of a Senior that was caught having broken into the school, drunk and high, having sex with a 13 year old in the gym. His folks? One the pastor of a local church. The other, a member of the board of trustees of a prominent local business. That is, these were not the 'bad parents' that we usually (often due to stereotypes) associate with this kind of behavior. So I am wholly unconvinced that praying in school would be the deal-breaker for good behavior.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I actually agree with you (well, except for the god part).

I am unsure why the antics you refer to are so often blamed on 'taking god out of schools'. God was never taken out of schools - people pray all the time. What was - rightly - taken out of schools is coercive, sectarian, administrator or teacher led prayer.

I served on a local school board for almost a decade, and in terms of disciplinary problems that ended up on the board's agenda (expulsions, weapons at school, stalking, etc.), I don't recall a single kid that was NOT a Christian, or whose family were church-going folks (it is a small town, everyone knows everyone). In fact, one of the more memorable cases was that of a Senior that was caught having broken into the school, drunk and high, having sex with a 13 year old in the gym. His folks? One the pastor of a local church. The other, a member of the board of trustees of a prominent local business. That is, these were not the 'bad parents' that we usually (often due to stereotypes) associate with this kind of behavior. So I am wholly unconvinced that praying in school would be the deal-breaker for good behavior.

Teaching kids that they are sinners and not saints is what will put God into the schools, and that the biggest hurdle they will face in life is overcoming their own selfish nature. God or religion doesn't have to be mentioned. They should be taught that the world's problems won't be solved through education but through change in the minds and hearts of people, and that the only reason they are in school is to learn to materially contribute to society and provide for themselves and their families.
 
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