The Flood

[Milk]

Just curious approximately when creationists place Noah's flood in history. Many people like to answer that it doesn't matter, and as far as "being saved" goes I'm they're probably right, but if one claims it as a historical event we should be able to find some possible time period when it might have occurred. I believe a literal interpretation of Genesis puts it around 4300 years ago. Does this sound right?

 

[ephraimanesti]

Just curious approximately when creationists place Noah's flood in history. Many people like to answer that it doesn't matter, and as far as "being saved" goes I'm they're probably right, but if one claims it as a historical event we should be able to find some possible time period when it might have occurred. I believe a literal interpretation of Genesis puts it around 4300 years ago. Does this sound right?

MY FRIEND,

The best "guesstament" regarding the date is 2304 BC +/- 11 years. Again, its just an educated guess by "experts."

And you are correct, it doesn't matter as far as "being Saved" goes--i.e., it really doesn't matter at all.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[DoctorJosh]

Just curious approximately when creationists place Noah's flood in history. Many people like to answer that it doesn't matter, and as far as "being saved" goes I'm they're probably right, but if one claims it as a historical event we should be able to find some possible time period when it might have occurred. I believe a literal interpretation of Genesis puts it around 4300 years ago. Does this sound right?

There was a documentary on Discovery in the late 1990's that had scientists stating they had proof that a flood did cover the entire earth and were finding fish fossils on top of mountains that were over 8,000 feet tall. They were still trying to find an exact date that the flood happened. Some others found dating periods range between 60,000 and 100,000 years ago. Some cities that are being found date back to 35,000 years old, so it could be less than 60,000 years since the oldest city so far is 35k years old. The city that was destroyed before the flood has been found as well, which did show it was covered by water as well. So trying to find an exact date the flood happened may happen if more Christian scientists work on that alone, but they are pretty busy working on many of the historical documents or lost cities that are being found and dating and investigating those things. However, most importantly is the flood is shown to be proven by even scientists and the many fish and sea fossils they are finding thousands of feet above sea level on mountains. Worth looking into if interested.

 

[Milk]

There was a documentary on Discovery in the late 1990's that had scientists stating they had proof that a flood did cover the entire earth and were finding fish fossils on top of mountains that were over 8,000 feet tall. They were still trying to find an exact date that the flood happened. Some others found dating periods range between 60,000 and 100,000 years ago. Some cities that are being found date back to 35,000 years old, so it could be less than 60,000 years since the oldest city so far is 35k years old. The city that was destroyed before the flood has been found as well, which did show it was covered by water as well. So trying to find an exact date the flood happened may happen if more Christian scientists work on that alone, but they are pretty busy working on many of the historical documents or lost cities that are being found and dating and investigating those things. However, most importantly is the flood is shown to be proven by even scientists and the many fish and sea fossils they are finding thousands of feet above sea level on mountains. Worth looking into if interested.

I'd love to find out what city was dated to 35,000 years ago. I've never heard of cities being around back then.

 

[Sir Wilshire]

Just curious approximately when creationists place Noah's flood in history. Many people like to answer that it doesn't matter, and as far as "being saved" goes I'm they're probably right, but if one claims it as a historical event we should be able to find some possible time period when it might have occurred. I believe a literal interpretation of Genesis puts it around 4300 years ago. Does this sound right?

Taking all of Genesis as a historical narrative does not put it at that time. In fact, Genesis doesn't make a claim as to when these things happened. As for the Flood, here is the one I think is the most possible at the moment.

Theory For Creationists

It posits the flood as being 5 million years ago in the Mediterranean basin. More importantly though, is this all that is keeping you from Christ?

 

[razeontherock]

finding fish fossils on top of mountains that were over 8,000 feet tall.

Clam fossils are on top of Everest. Together with the flood period, major geological upheaval occurred, both before and after.

 

[razeontherock]

In fact, Genesis doesn't make a claim as to when these things happened.

Yes it does; maybe read a little more closely. Now, if there may be gaps of unrecorded history in there or something ... many speculate, but that's not how the story reads.

 

[Milk]

Taking all of Genesis as a historical narrative does not put it at that time. In fact, Genesis doesn't make a claim as to when these things happened.

I would argue that Genesis does make a claim to when this happened. The genealogies in Genesis are quite plainly laid out for us. I'm not sure if you would say that there are gaps in in the genealogies and that the genealogies actually begin millions of years ago with homo habilis that had Jewish names.

As for the Flood, here is the one I think is the most possible at the moment.

Theory For Creationists
It posits the flood as being 5 million years ago in the Mediterranean basin.

Do you really believe this theory? No offense, but I found this harmonization terribly contrived and desperate. The author even calls this theory a "long-shot" at the beginning of the essay. Why even try to pretend that Genesis is history at this point.

More importantly though, is this all that is keeping you from Christ?

It's related to the bigger issue of the veracity of the Bible. I find the Bible has every marking one would expect to find from a tribal culture dating from a few thousand years ago. There is some nice stuff in there and there is some horrible stuff too, but I don't have any reason to think the Creator of the universe was involved in its composition.

 

[razeontherock]

It's related to the bigger issue of the veracity of the Bible. I find the Bible has every marking one would expect to find from a tribal culture dating from a few thousand years ago. There is some nice stuff in there and there is some horrible stuff too, but I don't have any reason to think the Creator of the universe was involved in its composition.

Well well well, This is a deep subject

Look at Job and Genesis, both contemporary authors. Both start out completely defying the thinking of the day! I guess you missed that part, huh? Which would you like to pick first? Let's do Job as it was written first. Ever read it? Familiar with yin and yang? The pinnacle of man's understanding at the time. Yeah well, it starts off blowing that out of the water. Attacks that mindset directly, and demolishes it for the folly it is. Oh, and if there are any Taoists that are offended by that - GOOD! Your god is no god, and I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it IS the power of G-d. Let the G-d that answers by fire be G-d.

Ready for Genesis or was that too quick for ya? We've got a lot of ground to cover, but every step needs to be sure; it doesn't do to rush.

 

[Milk]

Well well well, This is a deep subject

Look at Job and Genesis, both contemporary authors. Both start out completely defying the thinking of the day! I guess you missed that part, huh? Which would you like to pick first? Let's do Job as it was written first. Ever read it? Familiar with yin and yang? The pinnacle of man's understanding at the time. Yeah well, it starts off blowing that out of the water. Attacks that mindset directly, and demolishes it for the folly it is. Oh, and if there are any Taoists that are offended by that - GOOD! Your god is no god, and I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it IS the power of G-d. Let the G-d that answers by fire be G-d.

Ready for Genesis or was that too quick for ya? We've got a lot of ground to cover, but every step needs to be sure; it doesn't do to rush.

Wow. You are a warrior!

 

[Milk]

MY FRIEND,

The best "guesstament" regarding the date is 2304 BC +/- 11 years. Again, its just an educated guess by "experts."

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

I've heard these dates before. I'm curious how you reconcile these dates with what was happening around the world before and after this time. Let's take for example the Egyptian pyramids. Egyptologists date the pyramids to 2500 BC. Would you posit that the Egyptian civilization occured before the flood, or did Noah's descendents create it after the flood?

 

[razeontherock]

Wow. You are a warrior!

Well, let's address your quite valid concern which is, did the Creator of the Universe have anything to do with writing the Bible? One way of addressing that is to pick out each historical detail, and I'll mainly let others handle that. Deal with the concepts I raised and you'll find it gets right to the heart of the matter.

Dates of pyramids vs flood? I have no confidence we know nearly as much as we pretend. Remember if the flood happened like a literal rendering would have it, all measurements based on radiation are thrown completely off.

More importantly, the concepts of the Bible stand on their own even if they're just myth. The Truths run so deep and are so prophetic as to prove Divine authorship. Or says I ... "This poor man cried, and the LORD heard [him], and saved him out of all his troubles. The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them. O taste and see that the LORD [is] good" Psalm 34:6-8

What are you afraid of? Go ahead and engage the subject matter fully. I'm a big picture person, and deal in abstract concepts. I'll try to stick mainly to that side of things, although I have been granted some interesting perspective re: nitty gritty physical detail I may interject here and there if it comes to bear. So if you really want to explore your basic question(s), you need to deal with BOTH sides of the issue.

 

[drich0150]

I've heard these dates before. I'm curious how you reconcile these dates with what was happening around the world before and after this time. Let's take for example the Egyptian pyramids. Egyptologists date the pyramids to 2500 BC. Would you posit that the Egyptian civilization occurred before the flood, or did Noah's descendent's create it after the flood?

Not to butt in, but have you researched what Egyptologists base their dates on? Much of it is heavy speculation based on at best, circumstantial evidence. I personally think The only other thing more heavily speculated on is the actual time of the flood. To argue definitively on one subject or another is a fruitless endeavor.

It is OK not to know 100% of all the details, because neither side has all of the details.


Also it is believed that the Nation of Israel Built the pyramids. They lived in Egypt ever since they were brought/Invited into the land of Egypt by Joseph. After which you have the great Exodus of Israel from Egypt.. So, yes the pyramids were build after the flood, and Noah's/Abraham's descendants built the pyramids.

 

[Milk]

Also it is believed that the Nation of Israel Built the pyramids. They lived in Egypt ever since they were brought/Invited into the land of Egypt by Joseph. After which you have the great Exodus of Israel from Egypt.. So, yes the pyramids were build after the flood, and Noah's/Abraham's descendants built the pyramids.

Thanks. That's very interesting. As a history grad I'm surprised I never learned that the Israelites built the Egyptian pyramids, but I dozed off in class sometimes so I might have missed that.

 

[ebia]

Thanks. That's very interesting. As a history grad I'm surprised I never learned that the Israelites built the Egyptian pyramids, but I dozed off in class sometimes so I might have missed that.

When someone says "it is now believed" around here, don't assume that what follows is the view of mainstream historical scholars working with the period in question.

You've asked a question of creationists. By necessity creationists are trying to fit all other evidence into the biblical narrative, not letting each inform the other.

 

[drich0150]

Thanks. That's very interesting. As a history grad I'm surprised I never learned that the Israelites built the Egyptian pyramids, but I dozed off in class sometimes so I might have missed that.

No problem. I'm glad i could help. I guess it has become less and less politically correct to repeat an oral tradition in favor of a "true" archaeological hypothesis.

It is my understanding that now the popular belief centers around the Pharaohs sub-ing out all of this work because "fish bones" were found in the ruins of what is believed to be the remains of an old mess hall.. And as we all know fish could never be apart of slave's diet.

I wonder what "history grads" were taught about the pyramids during Hitler's Germany.. I wonder if the Jewish oral tradition was respected, or if Reich substitute 1000's of years of history for a more politically correct one??

True Wisdom never needs to be announced, but an education often will be. Good luck with your endeavor.

 

[ephraimanesti]

I've heard these dates before. I'm curious how you reconcile these dates with what was happening around the world before and after this time. Let's take for example the Egyptian pyramids. Egyptologists date the pyramids to 2500 BC. Would you posit that the Egyptian civilization occured before the flood, or did Noah's descendents create it after the flood?

MY DEAR BROTHER,

To be honest i have no interest or investment in such topics. They are, to me, minor details and road markers along the way of mankind's journey from "The Fall" to the gates of "The New Jerusalem. To spend more than cursory amounts of time and energy delving into them is, to my mind, a serious distraction from the reason the Bible was written in the first place--to lead us to Christ. As Paul explained to Timothy, "From infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD-BREATHED AND IS USEFUL FOR TEACHING, REBUKING, CORRECTING AND TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, SO THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK." (II Timothy 3:15-17)

If i want to learn history, i read a history text; if i want to learn astronomy, i read a scientific treatise on the nature of the galaxies; if i'm interested in physics, i study books on the subject; if i want to know more about God for the purpose of drawing nigh to Him in Love and Surrender, i read the Bible.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[razeontherock]

Yes, Ephraim is correct. The Bible is G-d's book to man, concerning how we can relate to Him, including the fact that we must. He has given us (as a species) amazing glimpses into what otherwise couldn't have been known, but at best those were mysteries, and most people no doubt missed them entirely. G-d expects us to flesh out the details of our own lives, and one mistake Christians make is to pretend the Bible tells us all we need to know about living. It doesn't. It tells us to work hard knowing G-d is watching, but it doesn't give us any practical details of our job, for example.

 

[Milk]

No problem. I'm glad i could help. I guess it has become less and less politically correct to repeat an oral tradition in favor of a "true" archaeological hypothesis.

It is my understanding that now the popular belief centers around the Pharaohs sub-ing out all of this work because "fish bones" were found in the ruins of what is believed to be the remains of an old mess hall.. And as we all know fish could never be apart of slave's diet.

I wonder what "history grads" were taught about the pyramids during Hitler's Germany.. I wonder if the Jewish oral tradition was respected, or if Reich substitute 1000's of years of history for a more politically correct one??

True Wisdom never needs to be announced, but an education often will be. Good luck with your endeavor.

Have you heard anything about the Sumerian culture? Did that culture begin after 2304 BC also? What about Australian aborigines? I heard they got to Australian pretty early. Did they also descend from Noah's family, post 2304 BC?

 

[drich0150]

Have you heard anything about the Sumerian culture? Did that culture begin after 2304 BC also?

So now 2304 BC is the magic number, you have decided to hold all of Christianity and Judaism accountable to.. For me, It would stand to reason that if this number was correct then the popular historical accounts that placed the Sumerian people in current day Iraq around 5000 BC is incorrect. Or if the popular Historical accounts are indeed correct, then the arbitrary number you have selected is incorrect...

Do you see how that works? No matter what time you believe the flood happened, the world still turns, the power that supplies your computer still flows. You as a student of History like us, must both take a leap of faith in whatever it is we believe in. Despite what either of us believe life goes on.

I would have a little more empathy for your pretentious argument, if I too, had slept a little more through most of my History classes. But, as my current understanding of how our collective histories have been complied, I think it to be foolish to argue in absolutes when what you are arguing is at best a well accepted theory. (On the Christian or secular side)

But, you on the other hand seem to be trying to approach this as a Mathematical certainty. Almost as if you could prove your equation somehow. When in reality I would say, your efforts and work extend into a realm of faith that most of the "Faithful" would be envious of.

Granted it is always easier to have faith in what you have been told, when a large number of you believe it. even so, for me to place all of what I believe in those who have discovered, or have interpreted discoveries of others, Especially in light of all of the changes that have been made to History in just the last 30 years is beyond my level of faith. But you have taken it a step further by seeking out those who do not think as you do and challenging their beliefs, because "they" have not kept up with the popular beliefs about your particular version of history.

I heard they got to Australian pretty early. Did they also descend from Noah's family, post 2304 BC?

Do I need to walk you through the aboriginal people of Australia as well? the same principle applies.