The Flood

[thaumaturgy]

The question was asked why I believe Noah came from North America.

My answer used the word "pitch" to show why I think that.

Now the conversation got switched to "gopher wood" --- which is a whole different subject.

ACtually AV, in all seriousness this is a very interesting avenue to pursue. It won't necessarily work to your advantage but let's explore this a bit:

1. You claim the pitch was likely from the Pitch Pine, a native species to North America.

I pointed out that pitch is more commonly petroleum bitumen which can occur in the Middle East (where we generally get the Old Testament)

Duke then pointed out that likely it was a mistranslation by the KJV translators of "kopher" wood, which is a wood that is covered in pitch.

So in a sense it brings it back to your hypothesis (tree resin pitch) but by means of a possible error by the KJV Translators.

I find that fascinating that you might have a valid point but in accepting it you might have to then question the accuracy of the most accurate version of the Bible you know of!

Sort of "Sophies Choice" for biblical inerrancy, no?

 

[LittleNipper]

I too would welcome such a "claim", because then it would draw the discussion back down to "reality's nuts and bolts".

Usually the YEC or Floodians here treat geology as a big hand-waivey exercise of "Well water can deposit sediments so I can imagine anything I want and it must be so!"

Perhaps it is an axiom of Flood Geology that when a "fact" is sufficiently presented as to allow for analysis it will invariably fail.

As long as the "facts" are kept nebulous and ill-defined you can't really argue against it.

A clear understanding of the facts seems to be the worst enemy of Flood Geology. Certainly it is the clear enemy of YEC in general.

I wonder who survives on confusion? Isn't there some character in the Bible that would thrive in places where truth and facts are clouded or kept dark?

What you must consider is that Christian scientists, putting into practice Christian ethic, will likely not set up a compehensive interpretation of data UNTIL, they are very sure that it is presented truthfully in total compliance with GOD's WORD. They answer to a much higher authority.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't have a clue what you're talking about --- so let's play your games:

1. You claim the pitch was likely from the Pitch Pine, a native species to North America.

Yes.

I pointed out that pitch is more commonly petroleum bitumen which can occur in the Middle East (where we generally get the Old Testament)

Yes

Duke then pointed out that likely it was a mistranslation by the KJV translators of "kopher" wood, which is a wood that is covered in pitch.

I don't remember that --- I'd have to go back and look --- but since I was using the "pitch" mentioned in that verse, and not the "gopher wood," I can understand why I forgot.

So in a sense it brings it back to your hypothesis (tree resin pitch) but by means of a possible error by the KJV Translators.

What?

Here's the verse:

Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Why now are we discussing:

Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Are you saying that the pitch says he's from North America, and the gopher wood says he's from Mesopotamia?

I'm lost here.

I find that fascinating that you might have a valid point but in accepting it you might have to then question the accuracy of the most accurate version of the Bible you know of!

No offense, Thaumaturgy, but what in Helsinki are you talking about?

Sort of "Sophies Choice" for biblical inerrancy, no?

Don't you mean Hobson's Choice, or is that a mistranslation too?

 

[thaumaturgy]

What you must consider is that Christian scientists, putting into practice Christian ethic, will likely not set up a compehensive interpretation of data UNTIL, they are very sure that it is presented truthfully in total compliance with GOD's WORD. They answer to a much higher authority.

Ok, well, you are painting a picture of christian non-scientists.

Scientists are not in the game of absolutes.

Scientists model the available data as best as can be done until more data come in.

You seem to have suggested that the "Christian Scientists" of which you speak are exactly useless to science. If they just collect data as they must surely have been doing the past 200+ years on this topic and never present a comprehensive interpretation then they are not doing a big portion of their job. Either that or they know they haven't found any data in direct support of their "preconcieved notion" of what the data should say.

If their goal is stay in the dark and provide you with "data droplets" to allow you to stay in the dark then perhaps they can achieve that.

But I will also remind you that many, many scientists are Christians here in the U.S. And many if not all of the early geologists who abandoned the Flood Myth as an explanatory model were very devout Christians in search of proof of said Flood.

So, I am unsure of whom you are speaking in your post.

 

[thaumaturgy]

I don't have a clue what you're talking about --- so let's play your games:


No offense, Thaumaturgy, but what in Helsinki are you talking about?

Please re-read the posts and take some time to think through what I wrote.

You have claimed to be a chess player in the past, this is a very simple set of moves. You have to choose whether to sacrifice your queen or your bishop.

I really can't simplify the discussion any more than I have already.

(And no, this is not Hobson's Choice, which is a choice between accepting an offer or not. Sophie's Choice was a novel and movie back in the 80's in which the main character had to make a hard choice between two upleasant alternatives, and is now a metaphor for "a tragic choice between two unbearable options".)

 

[dukeofhazzard]

I don't remember that --- I'd have to go back and look --- but since I was using the "pitch" mentioned in that verse, and not the "gopher wood," I can understand why I forgot.

Are you saying that the pitch says he's from North America, and the gopher wood says he's from Mesopotamia?

I'm lost here.

No offense, Thaumaturgy, but what in Helsinki are you talking about?

AV!! Are you doing this on purpose!?

You said your evidence which made you think Noah may have originated in North America was the use of "pitch" to which you added, "pine" and stated that Pitch Pine is from North America.

Thaumaturgy pointed out that it was likely the pitch made from "... more commonly petroleum bitumen which can occur in the Middle East"

Naraoia (probably misspelled sorry ) pointed out that the word gopher was a mistranslation (probably intimating that the entire verse is questionable).

I posted info on what the likely translation was, which was roughly, "wood covered in pitch". Not pitch pine.

There.

 

[Naraoia]

Naraoia (probably misspelled sorry ) pointed out that the word gopher was a mistranslation (probably intimating that the entire verse is questionable).

Eh, I actually thought that AV referred to both the gopher thing and the pitch as supporting evidence to American Noah. There seemed to be a plural in his post, which I may have misunderstood. Since someone had already commented on the pitch, I chose to complain about the gophers

Silly me. :o

 

[Vene]

As soon as geologists discover a "FLOOD!" layer, I'll sit up and listen.

All the rest in this 200+ post thread, is nothing more than postulation, maneuvering, and rhetoric.

But, that's all they've got. It's not like I expected any real evidence when I started this thread. Personally, I think that the point was passed a long time ago.

 

[AV1611VET]

You said your evidence which made you think Noah may have originated in North America was the use of "pitch" to which you added, "pine" and stated that Pitch Pine is from North America.

Well, whatever.

Here's a restatement of what I believe:

I said that in my opinion, Noah lived in North America --- probably the United States.

Someone asked me to back it up, and I did with:

[bible]Genesis 6:14[/bible]

The Pitch Pine is found mainly in the northeastern United States, from Maine and Ohio to Kentucky and norther Georgia. A few stands occur in southern Quebec and Ontario. This pine occupies a variety of habitats from dry, acidic sandy uplands to swampy lowlands, and can survive in very poor conditions; it is the primary tree of the New Jersey Pine Barrens.

Thus the Ark would have traveled from the United States to Mesopotamia, in my opinion.

 

[Naraoia]

Well, whatever.

Here's a restatement of what I believe:

I think we've already understood what you believe.

Thus the Ark would have traveled from the United States to Mesopotamia, in my opinion.

Still, why on earth would people who lived and worked in the Middle East (and now don't tell me the Bible writers were Americans, or else be prepared to defend that claim) and probably saw plenty of pitch in the Middle East specifically mean the resin of a North American pine species which lives thousands of miles from their homes by a term that can't really be translated more accurately than "pitch"? I don't understand your logic, if there is any.

 

[AV1611VET]

I think we've already understood what you believe.

Still, why on earth would people who lived and worked in the Middle East (and now don't tell me the Bible writers were Americans, or else be prepared to defend that claim) and probably saw plenty of pitch in the Middle East specifically mean the resin of a North American pine species which lives thousands of miles from their homes by a term that can't really be translated more accurately than "pitch"? I don't understand your logic, if there is any.

I just think it would be nice if it turns out that Noah lived here in the United States.

I certain think the whole world was occupied at the time, meaning that what is now all seven continents were inhabited, and to confine Noah to just the Middle East is kinda stretching it.

In addition, this would mean that the Ark both left from the Middle East, and returned to the Middle East; something I'm not quite ready to accept.

 

[AV1611VET]

Eh, I actually thought that AV referred to both the gopher thing and the pitch as supporting evidence to American Noah.

The gopher wood, again in my opinion, came from a plant "kind", much like the animals did.

Thus, just like we don't see Behemoth, Leviathan, or 4-legged grasshoppers anymore, we don't see the Gopher Tree.

It's extinct.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Well, the one source of information we haven't tapped yet on this rich subject is:

The Mesopotamians

http://www.vh1classic.com/view/artist/1145/180574/They_Might_Be_Giants/The_Mesopotamians/index.jhtml

They Might Be Giants

 

[Vene]

The gopher wood, again in my opinion, came from a plant "kind", much like the animals did.

Thus, just like we don't see Behemoth, Leviathan, or 4-legged grasshoppers anymore, we don't see the Gopher Tree.

It's extinct.

Evidence please.

 

[AV1611VET]

Naraoia, I just wanted to add that long before I ever claimed the pitch as evidence for Noah living in what is now North America, I used to claim anyway that, in my opinion, I think it would be kinda neat if Noah actually lived in the United States.

Then one day, someone (I think it might have been Ahteuz) showed me the Wikipedia article, and I about had a shouting match.

I'll try to hunt up the original post, but doubt if I can find it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, the one source of information we haven't tapped yet on this rich subject is:

The Mesopotamians

http://www.vh1classic.com/view/artist/1145/180574/They_Might_Be_Giants/The_Mesopotamians/index.jhtml

They Might Be Giants

What's this have to do with anything?

 

[AV1611VET]

Evidence please.

CLICK HERE
​

 

[Vene]

That's nice, now can you provide evidence that behemoths, leviathans, gopher trees, or 4-legged grasshoppers existed at some point in time.

 

[thaumaturgy]

What's this have to do with anything?

What kind of question is that???

It's THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS!

Sheesh!

Besides, I thought we were talking about Mesopotamia and Gilgamesh. Did I miss something?

 

[AV1611VET]

That's nice, now can you provide evidence that behemoths, leviathans, gopher trees, or 4-legged grasshoppers existed at some point in time.

Outside of the Documentation --- no.