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The flood is impossible.

Agonaces of Susa

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No about plate tectonics .
Plate tectonics is a 20th century myth.

"The preliminary results from NASA indicate that the chord distance from Europe to North America is increasing by 1.5±0.5 cm per year, North America to Hawaii is increasing by 4±1 cm per year, Hawaii to South America by 5±3, and South America to Australia by 6±3 .... These results support Earth expansion, but not the plate tectonics theory, which is denied by the radius increase implicit in the data." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1988
 
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7steps

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Plate tectonics is a 20th century myth.

"The preliminary results from NASA indicate that the chord distance from Europe to North America is increasing by 1.5±0.5 cm per year, North America to Hawaii is increasing by 4±1 cm per year, Hawaii to South America by 5±3, and South America to Australia by 6±3 .... These results support Earth expansion, but not the plate tectonics theory, which is denied by the radius increase implicit in the data." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1988

Thanks for informing me you quoted S Warren Carey 1988 it must be right. I better inform everyone that it is a myth but I gather I was the last one to know. The problem is that my understanding is that Warren did not discredit plate tectonics he was giving a mechanism by which it could happen. I must not know much about the subject because it is about motion of the plates on the asthenosphere whether the earth is expanding or contracting does not stop the plates from moving it just dictates their motion. But what do I know I am not a geologist I thought it was a theory but now I stand corrected it is a myth of the 20th century. Discredited by a quote form a man that was in favor of plate tectonic.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Thanks for informing me you quoted S Warren Carey 1988 it must be right.
If S. Warren Carey said the sky is blue would you conclude that it is green and pink polka dots?

I better inform everyone that it is a myth but I gather I was the last one to know.
You're not the last to know but it's not surprising this data has been deliberately concealed from you.

"He [Democritus] said that the ordered worlds are boundless and differ in size, and that in some there is neither sun nor moon, but that in others, both are greater than with us, and yet with others more in number. And that the intervals between the ordered worlds are unequal, here more and there less, and that some increase, others flourish and others decay, and here they come into being and there they are eclipsed. But that they are destroyed by colliding with one another. And that some ordered worlds are bare of animals and plants and all water." -- Hippolytus, priest, 2nd century

"Upon examining the records of former measured distances, it appeared that the later operations showed this same distance to contain more feet and inches than formerly. My first idea was, that the measuring metals had contracted, but the great care which each operator had taken to guard against such a contingency, very shortly induced me to search for another cause. After many months, it was suggested to me, that possibly the earth was expanding, instead of the metals contracting; but no sooner did this idea present itself, than it was almost instantly rejected, for I hastily concluded that such a fact could not have escaped observation had it existed. I have always been disinclined to reject any suggestion, however novel, until I had closely examined its various phases. I therefore proceeded to reason upon the possibility of the growth of the Earth." -- Alfred W. Drayson, natural philosopher, 1859

"Growth of the earth episodically throughout geological time is abundantly evident." -- C. Warren Hunt, geologist, 1992

"About twenty years ago, when I expressed my reservations about the plate tectonics theory to one of its supporters, I got the answer, 'You either believe in it or not.' Unfortunately the religious mentality of the supporters of plate tectonics did not change in the years to come." -- Stavros T. Tassos, seismologist, September 1997

"The causal understanding of Earth expansion is not yet fully understood, but the empirical processes involved are confirmed by such numerous and different sets of data that this should be considered fact." -- Stefan Cwojdzinski, geologist, 2005

"In the oral session, except for one presentation that was clearly pro plate tectonics, and another one that did not address the issue of global and large scale geology specifically, there was general consensus that subduction, and therefore plate tectonics, is mechanically impossible." -- Stavros T. Tassos (seismologist) and Karsten M. Storetvedt (geophysicist), November 2007

The problem is that my understanding is that Warren did not discredit plate tectonics he was giving a mechanism by which it could happen.
There is no mechanism for plate tectonics.

"To date however, there is no direct unambiguous evidence that mantle convection and/or mantle circulation actually takes place; in fact, there is some evidence to the contrary. Moreover, there is no evidence that oceanic basalt can be repeatedly recycled through the mantle without being substantially and irreversibly changed. Yet, mantle convection/circulation and basalt recycling are fundamental necessities for the validity of plate tectonics. Furthermore, plate tectonics theory does not provide an energy source for geodynamic activity." -- J. Marvin Herndon, geophysicist, 2005

"Putting aside the insurmountable mechanical problems of subduction (a solid driven by the force of gravity penetrating into another solid), this is a gross violation of the obvious and of direct observation. Heat cannot be released instantly, because it is known from petrology that the cooling rate of rocks is about 50 degrees Kelvin per billion years!" -- Stavros T. Tassos, seismologist, 2005

"More realistically, the appropriate and credible physical metaphor for subduction would be of a wooden nail being projected very slowly into a cannon ball. This is, of course, impossible, even over infinite time...." -- Stavros T. Tassos (seismologist) and David J. Ford (geologist), 2005

I must not know much about the subject because it is about motion of the plates on the asthenosphere whether the earth is expanding or contracting does not stop the plates from moving it just dictates their motion. But what do I know I am not a geologist I thought it was a theory but now I stand corrected it is a myth of the 20th century. Discredited by a quote form a man that was in favor of plate tectonic.
"Subduction exists only in the minds of its creators." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1976

"I had taught subduction for more years than any of the present generation of people had been with it. And when they have been in it as long as I have they'll abandon it too." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1981

"Subduction is a myth." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1988

2008_age_of_oceans_p1024.jpg
 
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7steps

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If S. Warren Carey said the sky is blue would you conclude that it is green and pink polka dots?


You're not the last to know but it's not surprising this data has been deliberately concealed from you.

"He [Democritus] said that the ordered worlds are boundless and differ in size, and that in some there is neither sun nor moon, but that in others, both are greater than with us, and yet with others more in number. And that the intervals between the ordered worlds are unequal, here more and there less, and that some increase, others flourish and others decay, and here they come into being and there they are eclipsed. But that they are destroyed by colliding with one another. And that some ordered worlds are bare of animals and plants and all water." -- Hippolytus, priest, 2nd century

"Upon examining the records of former measured distances, it appeared that the later operations showed this same distance to contain more feet and inches than formerly. My first idea was, that the measuring metals had contracted, but the great care which each operator had taken to guard against such a contingency, very shortly induced me to search for another cause. After many months, it was suggested to me, that possibly the earth was expanding, instead of the metals contracting; but no sooner did this idea present itself, than it was almost instantly rejected, for I hastily concluded that such a fact could not have escaped observation had it existed. I have always been disinclined to reject any suggestion, however novel, until I had closely examined its various phases. I therefore proceeded to reason upon the possibility of the growth of the Earth." -- Alfred W. Drayson, natural philosopher, 1859

"Growth of the earth episodically throughout geological time is abundantly evident." -- C. Warren Hunt, geologist, 1992

"About twenty years ago, when I expressed my reservations about the plate tectonics theory to one of its supporters, I got the answer, 'You either believe in it or not.' Unfortunately the religious mentality of the supporters of plate tectonics did not change in the years to come." -- Stavros T. Tassos, seismologist, September 1997

"In the oral session, except for one presentation that was clearly pro plate tectonics, and another one that did not address the issue of global and large scale geology specifically, there was general consensus that subduction, and therefore plate tectonics, is mechanically impossible." -- Stavros T. Tassos (seismologist) and Karsten M. Storetvedt (geophysicist), November 2007


There is no mechanism for plate tectonics.

"To date however, there is no direct unambiguous evidence that mantle convection and/or mantle circulation actually takes place; in fact, there is some evidence to the contrary. Moreover, there is no evidence that oceanic basalt can be repeatedly recycled through the mantle without being substantially and irreversibly changed. Yet, mantle convection/circulation and basalt recycling are fundamental necessities for the validity of plate tectonics. Furthermore, plate tectonics theory does not provide an energy source for geodynamic activity." -- J. Marvin Herndon, geophysicist, 2005

"Putting aside the insurmountable mechanical problems of subduction (a solid driven by the force of gravity penetrating into another solid), this is a gross violation of the obvious and of direct observation. Heat cannot be released instantly, because it is known from petrology that the cooling rate of rocks is about 50 degrees Kelvin per billion years!" -- Stavros T. Tassos, seismologist, 2005

"More realistically, the appropriate and credible physical metaphor for subduction would be of a wooden nail being projected very slowly into a cannon ball. This is, of course, impossible, even over infinite time...." -- Stavros T. Tassos (seismologist) and David J. Ford (geologist), 2005


"Subduction exists only in the minds of its creators." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1976

"I had taught subduction for more years than any of the present generation of people had been with it. And when they have been in it as long as I have they'll abandon it too." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1981

"Subduction is a myth." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1988


Ok ok you must be right because you are quoting allot of people. Since I am not a geologist and I do not plan on doing experimentation myself I will have to take current "scientific" understanding of geological formations. As for the original questions of how mountains are formed which is where this discussion came from. Mountains are formed by fairies which bring lots of buckets of dirt and then a big flood brought all the shells up there. Sorry I become very sarcastic when people think that just because they quote Smith, Jones and Charley that it make it right. And science I can't post pretty pictures like you can because my post count is not 50 or more it also makes me sad.
As for pink polka dots in wonderland unfortunately it does not aply to this statement they are not saying the sky is blue or that one plus one is 2, hey that rhymes. They are debating theories not facts. I wish I could have made that rhyme too. I really tried but I could not figure how.
But what ever you want to believe is fine because whether we find that plate tectonics is real or not does not make a bit of difference.

Since I have become addicted to this forum and really not got anything out of it, I probably won't be responding to any more rebuttals. I just registered the other day and I have spent way to much time on the forum. Realizing that debating theology is futile in a forum setting. It is best used for self help questions and appliance repair. Because their is honestly not enough time or room to really learn anything and debate anything that has not already been said on another thread. They say history repeats. They should look at forum threads. Same arguments same rebuttals and no one getting anything out of it. :p
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Ok ok you must be right because you are quoting allot of people.
No wonder you believe in plate tectonics.

"If 50 million people believe a fallacy it is still a fallacy." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1970

Since I am not a geologist and I do not plan on doing experimentation myself I will have to take current "scientific" understanding of geological formations.
By "current" do you mean 20th century mythology or 21st century reality?

As for the original questions of how mountains are formed which is where this discussion came from. Mountains are formed by fairies which bring lots of buckets of dirt and then a big flood brought all the shells up there.
That makes a hell of a lot more sense scientifically than plate tectonics.

"Granted, then, that certain transformations do happen, it is essential that we should regard them in the philosophic manner of fairy tales, not in the unphilosophic manner of science and the 'Laws of Nature.' When we are asked why eggs turn into birds or fruits fall in autumn, we must answer exactly as the fairy godmother would answer if Cinderella asked her why mice turned into horses or her clothes fell from her at twelve o'clock. We must answer that it is MAGIC. It is not a 'law,' for we do not understand it's general formula." -- G. K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909

"All the terms used in the science books, 'law,' 'necessity,' 'order,' 'tendency,' and so on, are really unintellectual .... The only words that ever satisfied me as describing Nature are the terms used in the fairy books, 'charm,' 'spell,' 'enchantment.' They express the arbitrariness of the fact and its mystery. A tree grows fruit because it is a MAGIC tree. Water runs downhill because it is bewitched. The sun shines because it is bewitched." -- G.K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909

Sorry I become very sarcastic when people think that just because they quote Smith, Jones and Charley that it make it right. And science I can't post pretty pictures like you can because my post count is not 50 or more it also makes me sad. As for pink polka dots in wonderland unfortunately it does not aply to this statement they are not saying the sky is blue or that one plus one is 2, hey that rhymes. They are debating theories not facts. I wish I could have made that rhyme too. I really tried but I could not figure how.
When Smith, Jones, and Charley say 2+2=4, you say wrong 2+2=5.

But what ever you want to believe is fine because whether we find that plate tectonics is real or not does not make a bit of difference.
Either the truth matters to you or it doesn't. Obviously it doesn't.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Weird, I know a few geologists and they all say PTs are real.
"If 50 million people believe a fallacy it is still a fallacy." -- S. Warren Carey, geologist, 1970

"In the oral session, except for one presentation that was clearly pro plate tectonics, and another one that did not address the issue of global and large scale geology specifically, there was general consensus that subduction, and therefore plate tectonics, is mechanically impossible." -- Stavros T. Tassos (seismologist) and Karsten M. Storetvedt (geophysicist), November 2007
 
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Naraoia

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Did you know that the cross is a religious symbol?
Christian.gif
It seems to me you are full of crap yourself.

But welcome to CF. :wave:
Doesn't this guy sound suspiciously like consol? :scratch:

Thanks for informing me you quoted S Warren Carey 1988 it must be right. I better inform everyone that it is a myth but I gather I was the last one to know. The problem is that my understanding is that Warren did not discredit plate tectonics he was giving a mechanism by which it could happen. I must not know much about the subject because it is about motion of the plates on the asthenosphere whether the earth is expanding or contracting does not stop the plates from moving it just dictates their motion. But what do I know I am not a geologist I thought it was a theory but now I stand corrected it is a myth of the 20th century. Discredited by a quote form a man that was in favor of plate tectonic.
*rolls on floor, laughs hindquarters off*

Ok ok you must be right because you are quoting allot of people.
I think it's often worth looking up the original source for Agon's quotations. It was quite a while ago, so it'd be difficult for me to dig up the link, but once I googled one of his "scientist quotes", and the only other place I found it, or even shorter parts of it, appeared to be his blog...

They say history repeats. They should look at forum threads. Same arguments same rebuttals and no one getting anything out of it. :p
Hey, don't go away! You're funny! *pats 7steps on shoulder*

Though I grant you that arguing with Agon is futile and frustrating.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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I think it's often worth looking up the original source for Agon's quotations.
I agree.

It was quite a while ago, so it'd be difficult for me to dig up the link, but once I googled one of his "scientist quotes", and the only other place I found it, or even shorter parts of it, appeared to be his blog...
Well if it's not on google then obviously it can't exist because google is omniscient and has every word and quote ever written available for free. Or not.
 
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Naraoia

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I agree.


Well if it's not on google then obviously it can't exist because google is omniscient and has every word and quote ever written available for free. Or not.
Which is why you ought to give full citations. If it's in a book that doesn't exist online, one should be able to go and find it.

BTW, I'm trying to find that specific example, because I'm sure there was more to it... stay tuned. I hope. If I don't find it, everyone feel free to disregard my previous claim.
 
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Naraoia

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Hmm, okay. I either misremembered or my search skills suck. The only story I found that resembles what I described is contained in these posts: [me googling a quote] [me not having the book].

So I did ask for a citation when I couldn't find the quote online, but I couldn't get my hand on the original source.

Also, I suspect I never had an answer to another demand of citation:

Me said:

Agon said:
"And the problem in geology is not only [a] problem of annihilation of species but also a problem of origin of species. In fact the very question of evolution: How could so many species that populate the Earth, and many more have populated without leaving a single descendant, how could so many species evolve just by the mere process of competition? From the original simple form, practically unicellular form, just by competition, can you understand how a crocodile and a bird and a worm and a man and an insect with many legs, all could come to be?" -- Immanuel Velikovsky, cosmologist, 1966
Sorry, is there any special reason why I should take a cosmologist seriously in this matter?

(Or, for that matter, why I should take someone who calls this guy a cosmologist with a straight face seriously...)

(Additionally, can you please provide a citation for your quote? I didn't find it using google, and I also didn't find anything from Velikovsky published in 1966. A clue, please?)

The fact remains that Agon is a quote miner who isn't keen on citing his sources.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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So I did ask for a citation when I couldn't find the quote online, but I couldn't get my hand on the original source.

Also, I suspect I never had an answer to another demand of citation:

The fact remains that Agon is a quote miner who isn't keen on citing his sources.
I've already told you that I will happily tell you the source of any quote I provide.

The source of that particular quote is from a lecture titled "From Book to Book and Land to Land" that Velikovsky gave at Eastern Baptist College in Wayne, Pennsylvania on May 5th, 1966.

Audio mp3 here: http://www.varchive.org/lec/bookland.mp3
 
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Naraoia

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I've already told you that I will happily tell you the source of any quote I provide.
You may have, but you didn't in that case, despite my explicit request :p

It would be so much easier if you cited your sources when you gave the quotes. That way you could forestall a lot of unnecessary suspicion. Like mine.

The source of that particular quote is from a lecture titled "From Book to Book and Land to Land" that Velikovsky gave at Eastern Baptist College in Wayne, Pennsylvania on May 5th, 1966.

Audio mp3 here: http://www.varchive.org/lec/bookland.mp3
Thanks. See, it's that simple.
 
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driewerf

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YEC's like to do a silly math trick, where they show how if population doubled every 150 years or so since the flood, there would be about 8 billion people today.
Now I know that every biologist will laugh at that argument since humans don't procreate like bacteria, but I would like to show how Creationists who make these claims debunk themselves without even knowing.
So here are the supposed facts:
-8 people survived the flood
-the flood happened arounnd 2.4K BC
-humans procreate at an exponential rate of 0,5% per year
So let's pick a random time in history and see if this check's out, what about the roman empire at the time of Jesus' birth?
Again, here are the facts:
-Jesus was born at around 0 BC
-the roman empire had a population of about 60 million (this is pretty accurate because it was taken from reports which were made at that time)

Here's the math:
8*2^(2400/150) = 524k
Now how about that?
Where were the other 59.5 million who lived in the roman empire at that time, not to mention everybody else in the world?
Even by their own biblical standards the re-population of the world was impossible.
According to biblical chronology, the Great Exodus out of Egypt happened 792 years after the Flood.
Chronology of the Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alas, according to the bible, there were over the 600.000 men who fled out of Egypt. Men. You have to add women and children by these 600.000. And these were the Jews. So you have to count the Egyptians as well.

According to Exodus 12:37-38 NIV, the Israelites numbered "about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children," plus many non-Israelites and livestock.[8] Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550. [9] The 600,000, plus wives, children, the elderly, and the "mixed multitude" of non-Israelites would have numbered some two million people,[10] compared with an entire estimated Egyptian population of around 3 million.[11]
Now, accdording to the math that Vatis gave us:
792/150=5.28.
8*2^5.28= 311
Where do these 600.000 come from?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Where do these 600.000 come from?
Obviously you've never been to Bedford Avenue in Williamsburg Brooklyn in order to observe how rapidly God-fearing Jews reproduce.

img-bs-top---varadarajan-hasid-hipsters_202932398605.jpg
 
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AV1611VET

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Obviously you've never been to Bedford Avenue in Williamsburg Brooklyn in order to observe how rapidly God-fearing Jews reproduce.
Indeed -- :thumbsup:

Exodus 1:15 ¶ And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
Exodus 1:16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
Exodus 1:17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.
Exodus 1:18 And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
Exodus 1:19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

Exodus 1:20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.
 
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driewerf

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Indeed -- :thumbsup:

Exodus 1:15 ¶ And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
Exodus 1:16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
Exodus 1:17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.
Exodus 1:18 And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
Exodus 1:19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.

Exodus 1:20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

All very nice, but this doesn't explain the difference between a calculated worldpopulation and a population of over the 600.000 jews alone.
 
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AV1611VET

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All very nice, but this doesn't explain the difference between a calculated worldpopulation and a population of over the 600.000 jews alone.
Yup -- 70 went down into Egypt, and 400 years later 603,550 came out.

Exodus 1:5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.

Nu 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
 
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driewerf

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Yup -- 70 went down into Egypt, and 400 years later 603,550 came out.

Exodus 1:5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.

Nu 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
You just repeated the claim, you didn't explain it.

But again, if we work with the math Vatis provided (and used by creationists!) the we get

400/150=2.666667 (let us take 3)
70*2^3=560.

After 400 years, the 70 jews that went to Egypt should be only 560. We are very far from 600.000
 
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