The First Resurrection

[ViaCrucis]

So you believe Jesus is not spirit?

Correct, I don't believe that Jesus is a spirit.

Okay. That would explain why you did not answer the question on 1 Peter 3:18

There are deeper and more troubling issues at stake, so I was wanting to get to the core of the issue.

If you want to understand 1 Peter 3:18, then take a look at what Paul says about the resurrection of the body in Romans 8:11. And if you understand that, then you'll also understand what Paul means by the expression soma pneumatikon in 1 Corinthians 15.

If one does not understand the sayings of spirit, which Jesus spoke, they might believe that Jesus was flesh.
Similarly, when Jesus said the young girl did not die, but is sleeping, they might think people do not die.
Jesus did not contradict Peter. Jesus was raised spirit.

Then you are saying Jesus didn't rise from the dead. That's what you're saying.

I would ask myself this question, if I were you. How did Jesus face and body look after the beating he got? Why then did no one recognize him? Was he wearing a mask, or did he put on makeup?
I'd be really interested in how People answer that, who think Jesus was raised with the body he was put to death with.
I'd also like to hear how they view Peter's words... if they are willing to answer.


What it means?
You think it has a meaning, and it's not an explanation?
I'd be interested in hearing what scripture explains that meaning, rather than what meaning you give it.
Please quote the scripture that gives the meaning.

In Post #46, I said this.
What we do know, is, the Bible does say what happened to Jesus. It says, he was "put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit". 1 Peter 3:18
The apostle Paul says the same is true of all those who will be raised in the likeness of Jesus. 1 Corinthians 15:42, 48, 49; 2 Corinthians 5:1-5

The Bible states a fact about Jesus' death and resurrection.
I do not adopt the idea that every scripture in the Bible has a meaning that people can give it... and whatever meaning is given, that's what it is.
To me, that renders every scripture in the Bible subject to multiple interpretations, all equally valid, and thus suggests the Bible is useless - not as defined at 2 Timothy 3:16, 17

The Bible explains itself, and gives the correct understanding.
I accept that understanding.

You are acting like this is just a trivial matter of biblical interpretation. It's not. According to what you're saying, Jesus is dead, and I have no salvation. What you are suggesting isn't just wrong. What you are suggesting is on the same level as saying there is no God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CoreyD]

Correct, I don't believe that Jesus is a spirit.

You believe Jesus is flesh?
How then do you reconcile that belief with 1 Corinthians 15:44-49?

There are deeper and more troubling issues at stake, so I was wanting to get to the core of the issue.

If you want to understand 1 Peter 3:18, then take a look at what Paul says about the resurrection of the body in Romans 8:11. And if you understand that, then you'll also understand what Paul means by the expression soma pneumatikon in 1 Corinthians 15.

Romans 8:11

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

1. The spirit dwells in you
2. He will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you

I understand that very well.
It is talking about God's spirit dwelling in those who accepts Christ.

Are you saying that 1 Peter 3:18 is talking about God's spirit dwelling in Jesus?
Take a look at 1 Peter 3:18

He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit,

If you are saying that Jesus was made alive in the spirit, in the same way that those who accept Christ, mortal bodies are made alive, what would that mean?
It would mean that Jesus' body was dead. Not physically, but spiritually... Dead in sin.
Which we know is not true.

So, to apply Romans 8:11, to 1 Peter 3:18, is to misapply the scriptures. See Romans 8:10

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

You may also read the surrounding verses - Romans 8:9-12
Here Paul does not refer to physical death, at all.

1 Peter 3:18 does refer to Jesus' physical death.
Jesus did not now have God's spirit dwelling in him.
The verse did not Jesus was put to death by flesh, and made alive by spirit.
The verse literally reads He was put to death flesh, and made alive spirit.

Then you are saying Jesus didn't rise from the dead. That's what you're saying.

I'm not, but how do you figure that?
You are not "putting words in my mouth" as is the common practice here, are you?

You are acting like this is just a trivial matter of biblical interpretation. It's not. According to what you're saying, Jesus is dead, and I have no salvation.

Maybe according to what you are saying, but it is not truthful to accuse me of that.

The truth is, Jesus died - Romans 5:6-8; 1 Corinthians 15:3.
The truth is Jesus died, and came to life - was resurrected. Romans 14:9
I have not said different.

Contrary to what some preach, Jesus did not remain alive, while his body died... which actually has no basis in scripture, nor reality.
If Christ did not die, yes, you have no salvation... If Christ did not die... but he did die.

What you are suggesting isn't just wrong. What you are suggesting is on the same level as saying there is no God.

-CryptoLutheran

What am I suggesting, if you will be so kind as to quote me accurately, and not misinterpret what I have said?

 

[Grip Docility]

You believe Jesus is flesh?
How then do you reconcile that belief with 1 Corinthians 15:44-49?


Romans 8:11

1. The spirit dwells in you
2. He will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you

I understand that very well.
It is talking about God's spirit dwelling in those who accepts Christ.

Are you saying that 1 Peter 3:18 is talking about God's spirit dwelling in Jesus?
Take a look at 1 Peter 3:18


If you are saying that Jesus was made alive in the spirit, in the same way that those who accept Christ, mortal bodies are made alive, what would that mean?
It would mean that Jesus' body was dead. Not physically, but spiritually... Dead in sin.
Which we know is not true.

So, to apply Romans 8:11, to 1 Peter 3:18, is to misapply the scriptures. See Romans 8:10

You may also read the surrounding verses - Romans 8:9-12
Here Paul does not refer to physical death, at all.

1 Peter 3:18 does refer to Jesus' physical death.
Jesus did not now have God's spirit dwelling in him.
The verse did not Jesus was put to death by flesh, and made alive by spirit.
The verse literally reads He was put to death flesh, and made alive spirit.


I'm not, but how do you figure that?
You are not "putting words in my mouth" as is the common practice here, are you?


Maybe according to what you are saying, but it is not truthful to accuse me of that.

The truth is, Jesus died - Romans 5:6-8; 1 Corinthians 15:3.
The truth is Jesus died, and came to life - was resurrected. Romans 14:9
I have not said different.

Contrary to what some preach, Jesus did not remain alive, while his body died... which actually has no basis in scripture, nor reality.
If Christ did not die, yes, you have no salvation... If Christ did not die... but he did die.


What am I suggesting, if you will be so kind as to quote me accurately, and not misinterpret what I have said?

You seem to be refusing to believe that the Soul is a reality or at least to acknowledge the possible validity of it, even apart from the body. Your arguments are ignoring the beliefs of us who believe that the Holy Spirit (Ghost/Soul) of Christ entered the realm of the dead while the Son lay dead in the tomb. If the Father was in Heaven, Who do you think ripped the Curtain of the Holy of Holies top to bottom?

For over 1500 years after Jesus ascended, the majority of the invisible Body believed in a physical Sheol and the dwelling of sentient Souls living within Sheol as Jesus taught in a parable, which is in sync with classic Jewish eschatology and spiritual understandings of OT passages. Only in the last 500 years and especially the last 200 years, in response to modern science has a portion of the Body of Jesus Christ traded in belief in the Realm of the Dead (Living Spirits of the Dead), and the Realm of the Living who are in Spiritual Bodies, with Jesus, in Heaven, which never died, but passed through the veil of death (through Jesus), unto eternal life, for a more modern Scientific approach that the "Soul" is nothing more than chemicals dependent on the Sarx (flesh) living. IMO

@ViaCrucis, did I express this correctly in your opinion?

 

[CoreyD]

You seem to be refusing to believe that the Soul is a reality or at least to acknowledge the possible validity of it, even apart from the body.

If you read my post carefully, and understood what I said, you could not in honesty, make this conclusion.
However, I understand why that often happens. Most people don't seem to like answering specific questions, for some reason, and so by ignoring them, they don't consider what is actually being said by the one they are conversing with.

So, for the benefit of those reading this, I will repeat.
Post #50

What is the soul?​

Strong's Hebrew: 5315. נָ֫פֶשׁ (nephesh) -- a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion​

What fell asleep? The person, or the body?​

What is sleeping is the person - the soul. Is that not so?​

​

As the scriptures show, what is raised up is the person. Not the body.​

Do you agree with those scriptures?​

Your arguments are ignoring the beliefs of us who believe that the Holy Spirit (Ghost/Soul) of Christ entered the realm of the dead while the Son lay dead in the tomb. If the Father was in Heaven, Who do you think ripped the Curtain of the Holy of Holies top to bottom?

You believe the holy spirit is the soul?
Wow. I had no idea.
I have every reason to ignore that belief, since it is nowhere in scripture.
Why do you believe something that the scriptures do not teach?

For over 1500 years after Jesus ascended, the majority of the invisible Body believed in a physical Sheol and the dwelling of sentient Souls living within Sheol as Jesus taught in a parable, which is in sync with classic Jewish eschatology and spiritual understandings of OT passages. Only in the last 500 years and especially the last 200 years, in response to modern science has a portion of the Body of Jesus Christ traded in belief in the Realm of the Dead (Living Spirits of the Dead), and the Realm of the Living who are in Spiritual Bodies, with Jesus, in Heaven, which never died, but passed through the veil of death (through Jesus), unto eternal life, for a more modern Scientific approach that the "Soul" is nothing more than chemicals dependent on the Sarx (flesh) living. IMO

@ViaCrucis, did I express this correctly in your opinion?

Jesus did not teach that.
It was taught by those who deviated from Jesus' teachings, after the 1st century.
Remember? 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Whom do you want me to believe... Jesus Christ, and the holy scriptures, or the apostasy - the man of lawlessness, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders?
Or would you like me to accept a teaching that you admit, is your opinion?

 

[ViaCrucis]

You believe Jesus is flesh?

Of course I do.

How then do you reconcile that belief with 1 Corinthians 15:44-49?

"It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the soulish, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven." - 1 Corinthians 15:44-49

What is there to reconcile? The Apostle makes a distinction between the present body in its current state, calling it soulish (psuchekos) and the body in the future state, in the resurrection, he calls pneumatikos, "spiritual".

The distinction is the life of the body, psuchekos vs pneumatikos. The present body is "soulish", which he identifies with being mortal, being able to decay, etc; while the body when it is raised and glorified he calls "spiritual", for it is no longer subject to death and decay.

Even when he says "the last Adam became a life-giving spirit" it is in relation to the first Adam a living soul. It is a contrast between psuche and pneuma. It is not a contrast between physical and non-physical, between flesh (physical matter) and spirit (non-physical something). When God took dust from the earth and breathed into it, we read in Genesis 2, that lump of dead earth became alive, a "living soul", הָאָדָם לְנֶפֶשׁ (l'nephesh chayah), a breathing-life, a living-breath. When the Lord was raised up from the dead, His body didn't just return to the way it was, it was glorified and transformed. So in this way, as we bear the kind of body Adam had with all its weaknesses, so shall we, when we are raised as Christ was raised, share in the kind of body He has, with that full Spiritual life which He has.

See also Philippians 3:21.

I pointed to Romans 8:11 to offer valuable insight into what Paul means by "spiritual body". I would maintain that when Paul says soma pneumatikon he means "Spiritual body" with a capital 'S', because he is referring to the body being alive by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:11

1. The spirit dwells in you
2. He will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you

I understand that very well.
It is talking about God's spirit dwelling in those who accepts Christ.

Are you ignoring the "give life to your mortal bodies" part?

For St. Paul that the Holy Spirit dwells in us is a direct promise from God of our future resurrection. For even as Christ was raised from the dead, so is God going to raise us up. This is why he talks about future glory and what awaits the whole of creation,

"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we await eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience." - Romans 8:18-25

This flesh is going to be transformed, this created bodily stuff is going to be transformed. All which God made is going to be redeemed and healed. For the Spirit in us, is the dowry, the downpayment, the promise that what God did for Jesus, He is going to do for us, and indeed, for the whole of creation.

The Apostle will elsewhere, such as in Colossians, talk further on this, speaking of how all things were made not only by/through Christ (as the Divine Logos through whom all things were made, see John 1:3) but indeed that all things were made for Christ (Colossians 1:16). And indeed speak of how in Christ all things are summed up (Ephesians 1:10).

That even as Christ shared in our flesh and blood by which He partook of our weakness and even death (Hebrews 2:9, 2:14), He having been raised from the dead has healed and restored what was broken; and by faith we partake of Him, being united to Him in His cross, His sufferings, and His new life by the Sacrament of Holy Baptism (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-13), as He offers us His own very flesh as food, and His blood as drink (John 6:55-58, Matthew 26:26, 1 Corinthians 10:16-18) as the Spirit is alive in us as the promise and the present reality of what God has done, is doing, and will do in the future.

Literally nothing in Christianity makes sense if Jesus has no flesh.

Are you saying that 1 Peter 3:18 is talking about God's spirit dwelling in Jesus?
Take a look at 1 Peter 3:18


If you are saying that Jesus was made alive in the spirit, in the same way that those who accept Christ, mortal bodies are made alive, what would that mean?
It would mean that Jesus' body was dead. Not physically, but spiritually... Dead in sin.
Which we know is not true.

Let's try this again.

Christ was made alive in the Spirit. That is, the Holy Spirit.

Mortal means physically able to die. Christ's flesh did not see decay, because His body was raised up. His body was not raised up to the same kind of weak, mortal, decaying existence from before; but in glory was His flesh raised.

Therefore if the same Holy Spirit is in us (and He is, the Person of the Holy Spirit is in us) then the same Spirit who raised up Christ shall give life to our mortal bodies, in the resurrection.

So, to apply Romans 8:11, to 1 Peter 3:18, is to misapply the scriptures. See Romans 8:10

You may also read the surrounding verses - Romans 8:9-12
Here Paul does not refer to physical death, at all.

1 Peter 3:18 does refer to Jesus' physical death.
Jesus did not now have God's spirit dwelling in him.
The verse did not Jesus was put to death by flesh, and made alive by spirit.
The verse literally reads He was put to death flesh, and made alive spirit.


I'm not, but how do you figure that?
You are not "putting words in my mouth" as is the common practice here, are you?


Maybe according to what you are saying, but it is not truthful to accuse me of that.

The truth is, Jesus died - Romans 5:6-8; 1 Corinthians 15:3.
The truth is Jesus died, and came to life - was resurrected. Romans 14:9
I have not said different.

What does it mean for Jesus to come back to life without His physical body? That's a meaningless statement.

Contrary to what some preach, Jesus did not remain alive, while his body died... which actually has no basis in scripture, nor reality.
If Christ did not die, yes, you have no salvation... If Christ did not die... but he did die.


What am I suggesting, if you will be so kind as to quote me accurately, and not misinterpret what I have said?

Without the resurrection of the body, there is no such thing as resurrection at all.

If you are saying Jesus died, His body died, and that body did not rise, if His flesh did not rise, then there is no resurection. One doesn't have resurrection without bodily flesh.

So it doesn't matter how or in what way one talks about resurrection, without Jesus rising bodily, it is meaningless nonsense.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CoreyD]

Of course I do.



"It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the soulish, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven." - 1 Corinthians 15:44-49

What is there to reconcile? The Apostle makes a distinction between the present body in its current state, calling it soulish (psuchekos) and the body in the future state, in the resurrection, he calls pneumatikos, "spiritual".

The distinction is the life of the body, psuchekos vs pneumatikos. The present body is "soulish", which he identifies with being mortal, being able to decay, etc; while the body when it is raised and glorified he calls "spiritual", for it is no longer subject to death and decay.

Even when he says "the last Adam became a life-giving spirit" it is in relation to the first Adam a living soul. It is a contrast between psuche and pneuma. It is not a contrast between physical and non-physical, between flesh (physical matter) and spirit (non-physical something). When God took dust from the earth and breathed into it, we read in Genesis 2, that lump of dead earth became alive, a "living soul", הָאָדָם לְנֶפֶשׁ (l'nephesh chayah), a breathing-life, a living-breath. When the Lord was raised up from the dead, His body didn't just return to the way it was, it was glorified and transformed. So in this way, as we bear the kind of body Adam had with all its weaknesses, so shall we, when we are raised as Christ was raised, share in the kind of body He has, with that full Spiritual life which He has.

See also Philippians 3:21.

I pointed to Romans 8:11 to offer valuable insight into what Paul means by "spiritual body". I would maintain that when Paul says soma pneumatikon he means "Spiritual body" with a capital 'S', because he is referring to the body being alive by the power of the Holy Spirit.


Are you ignoring the "give life to your mortal bodies" part?

For St. Paul that the Holy Spirit dwells in us is a direct promise from God of our future resurrection. For even as Christ was raised from the dead, so is God going to raise us up. This is why he talks about future glory and what awaits the whole of creation,

"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we await eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience." - Romans 8:18-25

This flesh is going to be transformed, this created bodily stuff is going to be transformed. All which God made is going to be redeemed and healed. For the Spirit in us, is the dowry, the downpayment, the promise that what God did for Jesus, He is going to do for us, and indeed, for the whole of creation.

The Apostle will elsewhere, such as in Colossians, talk further on this, speaking of how all things were made not only by/through Christ (as the Divine Logos through whom all things were made, see John 1:3) but indeed that all things were made for Christ (Colossians 1:16). And indeed speak of how in Christ all things are summed up (Ephesians 1:10).

That even as Christ shared in our flesh and blood by which He partook of our weakness and even death (Hebrews 2:9, 2:14), He having been raised from the dead has healed and restored what was broken; and by faith we partake of Him, being united to Him in His cross, His sufferings, and His new life by the Sacrament of Holy Baptism (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:11-13), as He offers us His own very flesh as food, and His blood as drink (John 6:55-58, Matthew 26:26, 1 Corinthians 10:16-18) as the Spirit is alive in us as the promise and the present reality of what God has done, is doing, and will do in the future.

Literally nothing in Christianity makes sense if Jesus has no flesh.



Let's try this again.

Christ was made alive in the Spirit. That is, the Holy Spirit.

Mortal means physically able to die. Christ's flesh did not see decay, because His body was raised up. His body was not raised up to the same kind of weak, mortal, decaying existence from before; but in glory was His flesh raised.

Therefore if the same Holy Spirit is in us (and He is, the Person of the Holy Spirit is in us) then the same Spirit who raised up Christ shall give life to our mortal bodies, in the resurrection.



What does it mean for Jesus to come back to life without His physical body? That's a meaningless statement.



Without the resurrection of the body, there is no such thing as resurrection at all.

If you are saying Jesus died, His body died, and that body did not rise, if His flesh did not rise, then there is no resurection. One doesn't have resurrection without bodily flesh.

So it doesn't matter how or in what way one talks about resurrection, without Jesus rising bodily, it is meaningless nonsense.

-CryptoLutheran

Okay. So, am I correct in understanding that your view is, that God raises up the body?
In that case, am I correct in understanding that your view is, the deteriorated body of the apostles are raised up?

When the Bible says what we read at 1 Corinthians 15:35-38, can you please explain the answer the apostle Paul gave to the question he raises in verse 35.

36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;​

What is Paul saying, dies?

37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.​

What is Paul saying, is sown?

38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.​

What is Paul saying, God gives a body to?

 

[CoreyD]

If you are saying Jesus died, His body died, and that body did not rise, if His flesh did not rise, then there is no resurection. One doesn't have resurrection without bodily flesh.

The Bible says Jesus dies. Full stop.
There is no scripture that says the body died.

When the Bible says Adam became a living soul, that is all it said.
It did not say, his body came to life.
He - Adam - the person, became a living soul. Not his body.

The soul is the living person.

So it doesn't matter how or in what way one talks about resurrection, without Jesus rising bodily, it is meaningless nonsense.

-CryptoLutheran

Is it your understanding that the body is the soul - the person?
If that is the case, I'm sorry that is what you have been taught.
That is not what the Bible teaches, at all.

What is resurrected is the person - The dead person. The person that dies - he, or she, is the one that is resurrected.
This is stated throughout the scriptures.
1 Corinthians 15:12-18, 20, 29, 32, 35, 42, 45 says it is the dead person that is raised up, and given an immortal body. 1 Corinthians 15:53-55

Yes. resurrection of the person - the soul, is not meaningless nonsense, to those who read the scriptures and take the scriptures at what they teach.
On the other hand, church doctrine, does make the scriptures meaningless, for those adhering to such doctrines.

 

[Grip Docility]

If you read my post carefully, and understood what I said, you could not in honesty, make this conclusion.
However, I understand why that often happens. Most people don't seem to like answering specific questions, for some reason, and so by ignoring them, they don't consider what is actually being said by the one they are conversing with.

So, for the benefit of those reading this, I will repeat.
Post #50

What is the soul?​

Strong's Hebrew: 5315. נָ֫פֶשׁ (nephesh) -- a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion​

What fell asleep? The person, or the body?​

What is sleeping is the person - the soul. Is that not so?​

​

As the scriptures show, what is raised up is the person. Not the body.​

Do you agree with those scriptures?​

I did read it. In my opinion, you are missing context while reading posts on this topic.

If you had properly understood my context, you would have seen that I was speaking of the human spirit/ghost/soul/heart as being something that doesn’t cease to be temporarily upon physical death. As you pointed out through strongs, it is a living being, our living being to be precise.

It is a result of the combination of Sarx being married to the Zoe, which as in Genesis results in a Living Being (Soul).

Creation can only kill the flesh. The Sarx. The Living Being (Soul) can only be destroyed by one Being, the Creator.

You believe the holy spirit is the soul?

The Holy Spirit is the very Holy Spirit/Ghost/Soul of almighty God.

Do you not believe that the same Holy Spirit that was in The Son, was also in the Father? If you don’t believe this, do not the works of Jesus testify of this?

Wow. I had no idea.
I have every reason to ignore that belief, since it is nowhere in scripture.

A spirit/shade/ghost/soul is also in strongs exactly as I speak.

We have a Soul/Ghost/spirit, yet, WHO‘s image are we made in?

Why do you think that it was widely received that The Holy Spirit was also known as The Holy Ghost?

Why do you believe something that the scriptures do not teach?

It does teach this.

Jesus explains that He isn’t a Spirit/Ghost/Shade/Phantasma and shows that He is corporeal to the touch, with flesh and bone.

The disciples were afraid Jesus was a Ghost, walking on water.

Jesus speaks of Lazarus and the Rich man being alive in Ghost/Soul/Spirit in the realm of the dead, before Jesus died on the cross.

Jesus did not teach that.
It was taught by those who deviated from Jesus' teachings, after the 1st century.

So, all those who were martyred for Jesus didn’t believe that death had no hold over them?

You are admitting that you are teaching something that wasn’t embraced 1900 years ago, here. By the wording of this, you are assuming that what you believe was exactly what Jesus taught and superior to what was embraced by tradition of early church translation as far back as, by your own admission, 1900 years ago.

This was close to the day of the Apostle Paul. 1900 years ago.

Can you proof that this belief was false per early church doctrine 1900 years ago?

You are certainly turning Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the Rich man into a false teaching by your words.

Jesus spoke of sentient Souls in Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham.

Remember? 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Whom do you want me to believe... Jesus Christ, and the holy scriptures, or the apostasy - the man of lawlessness, whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders?
Or would you like me to accept a teaching that you admit, is your opinion?

Right, in my opinion, I don’t want to be deceived 2000 years later by people that deny what Jesus taught when He gave the parable about Lazarus and the Rich man.

I trust Jesus, not man. However, for historical accuracy, I can, by your very words assert that the early church believed what I believe 1900 years ago, though you are calling this belief false, despite that Jesus specifically taught that souls/ghosts are sentient in the realm of the dead.

This is my opinion.

 

[CoreyD]

I did read it. In my opinion, you are missing context while reading posts on this topic.

If you had properly understood my context, you would have seen that I was speaking of the human spirit/ghost/soul/heart as being something that doesn’t cease to be temporarily upon physical death. As you pointed out through strongs, it is a living being, our living being to be precise.

It is a result of the combination of Sarx being married to the Zoe, which as in Genesis results in a Living Being (Soul).

Creation can only kill the flesh. The Sarx. The Living Being (Soul) can only be destroyed by one Being, the Creator.

The Holy Spirit is the very Holy Spirit/Ghost/Soul of almighty God.

Do you not believe that the same Holy Spirit that was in The Son, was also in the Father? If you don’t believe this, do not the works of Jesus testify of this?

A spirit/shade/ghost/soul is also in strongs exactly as I speak.

We have a Soul/Ghost/spirit, yet, WHO‘a image are we made in?

Why do you think that it was widely received that The Holy Spirit was also known as The Holy Ghost?

It does teach this.

Jesus explains that He isn’t a Spirit/Ghost/Shade/Phantasma and shows that He is corporeal to the touch, with flesh and bone.

The disciples were afraid Jesus was a Ghost, walking on water.

Jesus speaks of Lazarus and the Rich man being alive in Ghost/Soul/Spirit in the realm of the dead, before Jesus died in the cross.

So, all those who were martyred for Jesus didn’t believe that death had no hold over them?

You are admitting that you are teaching something that wasn’t embraced 1900 years ago, here. By the wording of this, you are assuming that what you believe was exactly what Jesus taught and superior to what was embraced by tradition of early church translation as far back as, by your own admission, 1900 years ago.

This was close to the day of the Apostle Paul. 1900 years ago.

Can you proof that this belief was false per early church doctrine 1900 years ago?

You are certainly turning Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the Rich man into a false teaching by your words.

Jesus spoke of sentiment Souls in Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham.

Right, in my opinion, I don’t want to be deceived 2000 years later by people that deny what Jesus taught when He gave the parable about Lazarus and the Rich man.

I trust Jesus, not man. However, for historical accuracy, I can, by your very words assert that the early church believes what I believe 1900 years ago.

This is my opinion.

Before I address the rest of your post, I think we need some clarity.
What is a parable, and what is its purpose?

 

[Grip Docility]

Before I address the rest of your post, I think we need some clarity.
What is a parable, and what is its purpose?

Is Grain Real?
Are Seeds Real?
Are Fish Real?
Are Nets Real?
Are Weddings Real?
Are Wedding Guests Real?
Are Wedding Garments Real?
Are Tares Real?
Are Land Owner's Real?
Are Pharisees Real?
Is Oil Real?
Is Land Real?
Is Wine Real?
Are Samaritans Real?
Is Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham Real?

Did Jesus use fake things in His Parables that don't exist in all of Creation as examples?

 

[CoreyD]

Is Grain Real?
Are Seeds Real?
Are Fish Real?
Are Nets Real?
Are Weddings Real?
Are Wedding Guests Real?
Are Wedding Garments Real?
Are Tares Real?
Are Land Owner's Real?
Are Pharisees Real?
Is Oil Real?
Is Land Real?
Is Wine Real?
Are Samaritans Real?
Is Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham Real?

Did Jesus use fake things in His Parables that don't exist in all of Creation as examples?

You did not answer my question. Can you answer it please?

 

[Grip Docility]

Okay. So, am I correct in understanding that your view is, that God raises up the body?
In that case, am I correct in understanding that your view is, the deteriorated body of the apostles are raised up?

When the Bible says what we read at 1 Corinthians 15:35-38, can you please explain the answer the apostle Paul gave to the question he raises in verse 35.

36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;​

What is Paul saying, dies?

37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.​

What is Paul saying, is sown?

38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.​

What is Paul saying, God gives a body to?

Jesus is unique. He is the very First Fruit, before the first fruits, which didn't rise until He was risen. He kept His actual Body, though it is now imperishable. His Body is a big deal and a perpetual Gospel reminder by His choosing.

Matthew 27:52 the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection..​

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus​

"Hath"; has happened, is going on, past, present, brought forward from the past, present and future reality (Hath, is happening)​

"Us", We who believe, in Heaven with Christ (This Hath Happened and is Happening)​

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”

Luke 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

 

[Grip Docility]

You did not answer my question. Can you answer it please?

Before I address the rest of your post, I think we need some clarity.
What is a parable, and what is its purpose?

Did Jesus use fake things in His Parables that don't exist in all of Creation as examples?

Is Grain Real?
Are Seeds Real?
Are Fish Real?
Are Nets Real?
Are Weddings Real?
Are Wedding Guests Real?
Are Wedding Garments Real?
Are Tares Real?
Are Land Owner's Real?
Are Pharisees Real?
Is Oil Real?
Is Land Real?
Is Wine Real?
Are Samaritans Real?
Is Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham Real?

Clarity would help, here. The big question is if Jesus conjured fake ideas for His parables, IMO. Not only did I answer your question but I placed the burden on the claim that Jesus used "Fake" examples for His teachings which were given in Parable. Are you willing to say that Jesus authors confusion and used things that don't exist for His parables that the Jewish culture clearly understood, when He taught, or are you going to acknowledge that Jesus used things that exist to teach His Parables which the Jewish culture were familiar with as real and thusly understood clearly?

It is one thing to say that Jesus used figurative people in Parables to make spiritual points, but it is entirely another to suggest that Jesus used fake concepts that aren't reality to teach. IMO

Not only did I answer the question, but I asked a question made up of smaller questions that directly answered your question.

In my opinion, stating that an answer received wasn't in the expected format of the one who asked the initial question doesn't mean that the question wasn't answered with a new question returned.

Jesus did this frequently. Was Jesus wrong to do this?

 

[Grip Docility]

Luke 24:37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost (Phantasma/Pneuma) does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

This is not the only occurrence where the Strong's word "Phantasma" comes up in scripture. Here, Jesus doesn't correct the disciples belief in Sentient Souls (Ghosts) of those whose Sarx (Flesh) has died, but instead teaches the difference between Ghosts and the Corporeal.

In this exact render, the Greek word used is (Pneuma) which is the word Spirit. However, in these passages the same implication is given and the word roots to "Phantasma".

Strong's #5326: phantasma (pronounced fan'-tas-mah)
from 5324; (properly concrete) a (mere) show ("phantasm"), i.e. spectre:--spirit.

Matthew 14:26: "they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; (spectre, ghost) and they cried out for fear."
Mark 6:49: "sea, they supposed it had been a spirit (spectre, ghost), and cried out:"

Is Jesus implying confusion or acknowledging truth as the Living Truth?

 

[CoreyD]

Not only did I answer your question but I placed the burden on the claim that Jesus used "Fake" examples for His object lessons.

You did not do that.
You refused to answer the question.
Anyway, no one made any claim that "Jesus used "Fake" examples"... whatever that is.

A parable is a story, or illustration used to explain something other than than what is used in the parable or illustration.
For example, seeds, birds, trees, people... it does not matter... The illustration is not about them, but it is about what they represent.
Do you focus on the seeds, the birds, the trees, the people, or what they represent?

If persons do the former, then Jesus' words at Matthew 13:11-15 is for them.
Since you recognize it is a parable, and you are using a parable to state a fact, then you are saying that you know that Jesus is giving a real event, rather than an example.
The only way you could know this, is if

1. The account is given in the Bible, somewhere, and Jesus refers to it.
2. You are in Jesus head
3. Jesus told you, either in person, or in scripture.

Since none of these are true, you do not know that Jesus was speaking about an actual event, where

• a man actually was laid at a rich man's gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed from the scraps which fell from the rich man’s table; not only that, the dogs also were coming and licking his sores.
• the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s arms.
• Or the rest of the parable

If you say you know this, then the burden of proof lies with you, to provide that concrete evidence.
Since we know you have none, there is no need to spend time here.
Let's move on then.

Are you willing to say that Jesus authors confusion and used things that don't exist for His parables that the Jewish culture clearly understood, when He taught, or are you going to acknowledge that Jesus used things that exist to teach His Parables?

Jesus did use things that "did not exist" - stories.
Take these for example...

1. The unrighteous manager - Luke 16:1 He was also saying to the disciples, “There was a rich man who had a manager, and this manager was reported to him as squandering his possessions.
2. The Prodigal son - Luke 15:11, 12 11 And He said, “A man had two sons. 12 The younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the estate that is coming to me.’ And so he divided his wealth between them.
3. The Lost coin - Luke 15:8 “Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it?
4. The Lost Sheep - Luke 15:3, 4 3 And so He told them this parable, saying, 4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the other ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?
5. The Dinner - Luke 14:16, 17 16 But He said to him, “A man was giving a big dinner, and he invited many; 17 and at the dinner hour he sent his slave to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, because everything is ready now.’
6. The Guests - Luke 14:7 Now He began telling a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor at the table, saying to them,
7. The Mustard Seed - Luke 13:18, 19 18 So He was saying, “What is the kingdom of God like, and to what shall I compare it? 19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and threw into his own garden; and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the sky nested in its branches.”
8. Leaven - Luke 13:20, 21 20 And again He said, “To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three sata of flour until it was all leavened.”
9. Prayer - Luke 18:1, 2 1 Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not become discouraged, 2 saying, “In a certain city there was a judge who did not fear God and did not respect any person.
10. What about the master who called three slaves and gave them minas. The Ten Minas - Luke 19:11-26
11. Or what about the master that left his vineyard to be managed, and went away. The Vineyard - Luke 20:9-15
12. Remember the guy that was forgiven a large debt, but then wanted to choke the life out of a slave that owed him little? We'll call this, The Large Debt... or if you like... Forgiveness - Matthew 18:23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his slaves.

We could go on to mention the countless parables, that all had real things, but were used in a story, to illustrate something else which they represented.

If you are prepared to argue that the rich man and Lazarus was a real event, then in all honesty, you would have to argue that every illustration was a real event. Take note that I used the illustrations that preceded, and following the rich man and Lazarus.
Are you prepared to do that?
If so, we cannot have any serious discussion on the Bible.

On the other hand, if you want to insist on arguing that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, is an actual event Jesus is relating, then without any proof of that, any further discussion with that included, leads nowhere.

Not only did I answer the question, but I asked a question made up of smaller questions that directly answered your question.

No. You did not answer the question.
I'm not sure you believe you did, either.

In my opinion, stating that an answer received wasn't in the expected format of the one who asked the initial question doesn't mean that the question wasn't answered with a new question returned.

Jesus did this frequently. Was Jesus wrong to do this?

That's true.
However, it depends on if the questions are relevant to the question asked.
Were your questions relevant?
No. They simply said, "Well Jesus used real stuff in his parable."
That does not answer the question as to what a parable is, and what is its purpose.
Anyway. I answered the question, so, no problem.

 

[Grip Docility]

You did not do that.
You refused to answer the question.
Anyway, no one made any claim that "Jesus used "Fake" examples"... whatever that is.

I am saying that your position is that Jesus used "Fake" examples. You do not believe in Biblical Sheol (The realm of the dead) where sentient souls dwell who die in unbelief. The modern Greek term for this place is Hades. Sheol is the current "Realm of sentient souls of those that have departed this Corporeal realm of the living" or (Realm of the Dead) who die in unbelief. It is metaphorically translated as Grave, because from our perspective, which by God's design, we are unable to see this realm and only know of the Graves of those who dwell there.

Hell roots in Hinnom or Gehenna and is reference to the Lake of Fire in the end. Hell is not Sheol and Sheol is not Hell.

You believe that Sheol/Hades and the Bosom of Abraham is/are Fake, conjured only for the purpose of that parable as an idea, despite it reconciling with OT scripture and Jewish belief of the time. I will further explain what I am saying here, but essentially you are arguing that because the exact bird in one of Jesus' parables is simply a figurative bird spoken of for the parable, that birds in general are fake.

In my opinion

A parable is a story, or illustration used to explain something other than than what is used in the parable or illustration.
For example, seeds, birds, trees, people... it does not matter... The illustration is not about them, but it is about what they represent.
Do you focus on the seeds, the birds, the trees, the people, or what they represent?

This is misunderstanding the questions asked because the answer on my part looks like this.

Are Seeds Real? Yes
Are Fish Real? Yes
Are Nets Real? Yes
Are Weddings Real? Yes
Are Wedding Guests Real? Yes
Are Wedding Garments Real? Yes
Are Tares Real? Yes
Are Land Owner's Real? Yes
Are Pharisees Real? Yes
Is Oil Real? Yes
Is Land Real? Yes
Is Wine Real? Yes
Are Samaritans Real? Yes
Is Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham Real? Yes

Whereas your answer goes like so:

Are Seeds Real? Yes
Are Fish Real? Yes
Are Nets Real? Yes
Are Weddings Real? Yes
Are Wedding Guests Real? Yes
Are Wedding Garments Real? Yes
Are Tares Real? Yes
Are Land Owner's Real? Yes
Are Pharisees Real? Yes
Is Oil Real? Yes
Is Land Real? Yes
Is Wine Real? Yes
Are Samaritans Real? Yes
Is Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham Real? NO

I was making it clear that this is an inconsistency with the natural flow of Jesus' teachings to say that He isn't drawing from Real things to teach.

If persons do the former, then Jesus' words at Matthew 13:11-15 is for them.

I kindly disagree, because this verbiage is actually accidently sidestepping my intended point that Jesus used real things to teach from. I.e. If Jesus speaks of a figurative bird, we can then surmise that Birds are a real thing.

Since you recognize it is a parable, and you are using a parable to state a fact, then you are saying that you know that Jesus is giving a real event, rather than an example.
The only way you could know this, is if

1. The account is given in the Bible, somewhere, and Jesus refers to it.
2. You are in Jesus head
3. Jesus told you, either in person, or in scripture.

This concept is ignoring the verse that says that by Having the Holy Spirit of Christ and being under the headship of Jesus Christ that we do have the very "Mind of Christ", per scripture.

My counter point to this fair rhetoric is to say, I BELIEVE that Jesus uses Truth in Example, which believes that His Mind is being shared in Red letters. You could even call me a simpleton in this way.

You are taking the approach that the concept known as "Christian Moralism", which didn't exist as a teaching until 1590's, which contradicts the simplicity of believing that Jesus' drew from True examples for his parables, overrides the validity of the very Concept that Jesus drew from and spoke of in His teaching.

In my opinion.

Since none of these are true, you do not know that Jesus was speaking about an actual event, where

• a man actually was laid at a rich man's gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed from the scraps which fell from the rich man’s table; not only that, the dogs also were coming and licking his sores.
• the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s arms.
• Or the rest of the parable

I believe Jesus spoke Truth and drew from truth. When He says that the poor man was carried by angels to Abraham's Bosom (Arms) and the Rich man was in Sheol/Hades, both sentient after death from this corporeal plane, I believe Jesus is drawing from Truth and speaking Truth, as the Living Truth.

If you say you know this, then the burden of proof lies with you, to provide that concrete evidence.

It's in Red Letters, Spoken by the Logos/Word become FLESH. I have demonstrated the incongruity of suggesting that Jesus drew from things that are fake. Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham are as real as Seeds, Birds, People, Slaves, Leaven... etc... etc.... IMO

Since we know you have none, there is no need to spend time here.
Let's move on then.

I actually believe the Red Letters should be pretty concrete in this discussion.

Jesus did use things that "did not exist" - stories.

No. The things Jesus used to bind figurative examples to, did exist. Perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Maybe a bird in a parable is a figurative bird, but God Created birds and birds are real. Seeds are real. Sheol is real. The Bosom of Abraham is real.

Take these for example...

1. The unrighteous manager - Luke 16:1 He was also saying to the disciples, “There was a rich man who had a manager, and this manager was reported to him as squandering his possessions.

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people were figurative, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" from were from Real things, not fake things.

Rich men are real
Manager's are real
Possessions are real

1. The Prodigal son - Luke 15:11, 12 11 And He said, “A man had two sons. 12 The younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of the estate that is coming to me.’ And so he divided his wealth between them.

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people were figurative, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" from were from Real things, not fake things.

Sons are real
Being younger is real
Father's are real
Estates are real
Wealth is Real

1. The Lost coin - Luke 15:8 “Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it?

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people were figurative, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" from were from Real things, not fake things.

Women are real
Coins are real
Light is real
Lamps are real
Brooms are real

1. The Lost Sheep - Luke 15:3, 4 3 And so He told them this parable, saying, 4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the other ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it?

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people were figurative, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" from were from Real things, not fake things.

Sheep are real
Lost sheep are real
99 is a real number
1 is a real number
Pastures are real

1. The Dinner - Luke 14:16, 17 16 But He said to him, “A man was giving a big dinner, and he invited many; 17 and at the dinner hour he sent his slave to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, because everything is ready now.’

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people were figurative, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" from were from Real things, not fake things.

Men are real
Big dinners are real
Inviting Many is real
Dinner is real
Slaves are real
Everything being ready is real

1. The Guests - Luke 14:7 Now He began telling a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor at the table, saying to them,

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people and objects were figurative examples, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" example from were from Real things, not fake things.

Guests are real
Places of honor are real
Tables are real

1. The Mustard Seed - Luke 13:18, 19 18 So He was saying, “What is the kingdom of God like, and to what shall I compare it? 19 It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and threw into his own garden; and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the sky nested in its branches.”

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people and objects were figurative examples, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" example from were from Real things, not fake things.

Not one of those things "Don't exist and are fake things to draw from".

The Kingdom of God is Real
Mustard Seeds are real
Men are real
Gardens are real
Trees are real
Birds are Real
Nests are real
Branches are real
The sky is real

1. Leaven - Luke 13:20, 21 20 And again He said, “To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three sata of flour until it was all leavened.”

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people and objects were figurative examples, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" example from were from Real things, not fake things.

Not one of those things "Don't exist and are fake things to draw from".

Leaven is real
Sata (Portion) is Real

1. Prayer - Luke 18:1, 2 1 Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not become discouraged, 2 saying, “In a certain city there was a judge who did not fear God and did not respect any person.

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people and objects were figurative examples, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" example from were from Real things, not fake things.

Not one of those things "Don't exist and are fake things to draw from".

Praying is real
Cities are real
Judges are real
God is real
People are real

1. What about the master who called three slaves and gave them minas. The Ten Minas - Luke 19:11-26

Bottom line, even "if" the actual people and objects were figurative examples, each aspect that Jesus drew the "figurative" example from were from Real things, not fake things.

Not one of those things "Don't exist and are fake things to draw from".

Masters exist
Slaves exist
Minas exist

1. Or what about the master that left his vineyard to be managed, and went away. The Vineyard - Luke 20:9-15

Masters, Vineyards, Managers are Real

1. Remember the guy that was forgiven a large debt, but then wanted to choke the life out of a slave that owed him little? We'll call this, The Large Debt... or if you like... Forgiveness - Matthew 18:23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his slaves.

Guys are real
Debt is real
Choking is real
Life is real
Slaves are real
Owing little is Real
Kings are real
The King of kings is real
Accounts are real

We could go on to mention the countless parables, that all had real things, but were used in a story, to illustrate something else which they represented.

And, I can point out that Jesus uses real things to anchor His parables to, all of them. It isn't my stance that says; Real, Real, Real, Real, Real, Real

And then... Jumps to Fake at a point that disagrees with an adopted doctrine that didn't come to being until 1590

If you are prepared to argue that the rich man and Lazarus was a real event, then in all honesty, you would have to argue that every illustration was a real event. Take note that I used the illustrations that preceded the rich man and Lazarus.

I don't have to argue that the figurative examples were real events.
I'm taking the counter point of perspective that the things Jesus painted His illustrations with were real.

I will make a silly analogy to explain.

Bob Ross paints a Happy Tree. I'm not arguing that Bob Ross painted an actual Tree that has ever existed. I'm stating that Trees exist and Bob Ross painted something that exists in reality.

Are you prepared to do that?

I already have. I brought the discussion back to my intended point, instead of an accidently shifted misunderstanding of my intended point. IMO

If so, we cannot have any serious discussion on the Bible.

If I won't adopt the perspective that Jesus didn't use True existing things as examples to draw His illustrations from, we can't discuss the Bible?

Is this not saying that if I continue to point out the validity of the fact that Jesus never lied and used things that exist as examples to draw His illustrations from, because it doesn't line up with the teachings of the Opening Post, that you do not desire to continue discussion with me?

This is my opinon.

On the other hand, if you want to insist on arguing that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, is an actual event Jesus is relating, then without any proof of that, any further discussion with that included, leads nowhere.

Again, this is reframing my entire point to be more supportive of the Opening Post point, though it is not my point.

I am asserting that Jesus uses Birds in parables and birds are real.

Your counter point is to say that I am saying that the exact bird that Jesus is speaking of is real. I'm not making that point. It's not my point.

In my opinon

OP continued on next post, due to length of response.

 

[Grip Docility]

Continued from above post due to length of post

No. You did not answer the question.

I did. I answered your question by pointing out that you must be prepared to say that Jesus drew from examples that discuss fake things to teach with. My assertion is that if Jesus says a bird is in His parable, then, we can surmise that Birds exist.

I'm not sure you believe you did, either.

I know that I answered it. This is a very well thought out counter point and lengthy. If I hadn't hit the mark of discussion, there wouldn't have needed to come into being a defensive counterpoint that has much counter rhetoric thought through. The reframing of the question insinuates that it is best to avoid directly addressing the idea that it is not well to argue that Jesus used fictional things to draw his illustrations from.

Your way are giving counter point is actually genius.

You suggest that because a particular bird in Jesus' parable is not an actual bird that I have no right to believe that Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham exist.

My actual point is that Jesus uses a bird because birds are real. I know for a fact that all of Jesus' teachings are drawn from existing things within creation. That exact bird may be used to teach a parable and may not have ever existed. However, Birds exist.

Everything that Jesus uses as an example exists. It creates a large question and answer sheet of do xyz's exist and endless Yes's.

I'm pointing out that your counter point suggests Yes to all questions, except for the matter of Sheol and the Bosom of Abraham.

That's true.
However, it depends on if the questions are relevant to the question asked.

Yes

Were your questions relevant?

Because the correct answer to my question which was never about if that exact bird was real, but if birds are real, they were. This is why I gave multiple questions to ensure thread history retained the true nature of my question incase it got reframed in a way that avoided it's intended point.

No. They simply said, "Well Jesus used real stuff in his parable."

Aha. This speaks of the reality that Jesus drew His parables from. The bird may not have existed, but birds exist. Why place "no" before this? It's clear that you know you are reframing the intended point that was made by placing no before the final acknowledgment of what I was actually implying.

In my opinion

That does not answer the question as to what a parable is, and what is its purpose.

I'm stepping apart from the purpose of the parable because my point of reference isn't about the purpose, but that Jesus doesn't use Fake things within His parables. Remember, my point isn't currently about the precise bird in the parable, but the fact that Birds are real.

Anyway. I answered the question, so, no problem.

Did you?

Are you suggesting that there is a place in scripture where Jesus paints an illustration with falsehood or to say, something that is fake? I'm not speaking of the exact bird, but the fact that Birds are real.

This is my opinionated response

 

[ViaCrucis]

Okay. So, am I correct in understanding that your view is, that God raises up the body?

Yes, absolutely, 100%. That's what resurrection means. In the Apostles' Creed Jesus' Church confesses "We believe ... in the resurrection of the body", literally carnis resurrectionem.

Christianity is meaningless and makes no sense without the resurrection of the body.

In that case, am I correct in understanding that your view is, the deteriorated body of the apostles are raised up?

On the Last Day, when the Lord Jesus returns in glory to judge the living and the dead, yes.

When the Bible says what we read at 1 Corinthians 15:35-38, can you please explain the answer the apostle Paul gave to the question he raises in verse 35.

36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;​

What is Paul saying, dies?

37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.​

What is Paul saying, is sown?

38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.​

What is Paul saying, God gives a body to?

If you plant an acorn in the ground, the acorn is sown, it "dies", and then it rises out of the earth as an oak tree. If you plant an apple seed, the seed "dies", and rises out of the ground to become an apple tree. Etc. The present body is sown, analogous to a seed planted in the ground, it is dead, but then at the resurrection God raises it up. He gives to it a new kind of bodily existence. The glory of the mighty oak tree makes the humble acorn pale in comparison. In the same way, the glory of the body in the resurrection makes our present mortal, corruptible, dishonorable sort of bodily existence now tiny. The analogy of the seed is great because most people are able to recognize two things:

1) There is an obvious connection between the seed that is sown and the plant that rises, what rises isn't something disconnected or discontinuous with the seed; one doesn't get oak trees from mustard seeds, nor does one plant a seed and the thing that grows spontaneously generated from nothing. There is a direct continuation of bodily existence between what is sown and what rises; what is sown is what rises.

2) The matter of glory, what germinates, sprouts, and rises is so much more than what was sown. From a humble acorn one gets a mighty oak, from the tiny meager mustard seed a mighty mustard shrub grows. The meager, tiny, and insignificant gives way to something mighty and glorious. This present meager, mortal, lowly, weak, decaying body of sin-soaked flesh held in bondage to its own lusts because of Adam's sin will, having died, and then raised up at Christ's glorious coming, be raised up in the same glory as Christ was raised. I partake, now, in the fallen, weak, and lowly broken and sinful humanity of Adam; but in the resurrection I shall partake of the glorious humanity of Christ. My flesh is now as Adam's flesh was, but my flesh then will be as Christ's flesh is now. I shall be human like Jesus is human.

To take that last bit further, the entirety of our current spiritual life as Christians, our life of faith, the life we have by grace, through the life of the Spirit who is in us sanctifying us, as we inhabit our baptism and live as justified people--having been freely justified by grace, receiving the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to us--accredited to us--by grace. For we have been united to Christ, we are in Christ, by this union to Christ, by the life of the Spirit, we are participating even now--though only in part--of that future good which we long for and hope. So that even though we contend with the old man, the old Adam, with the lusts, passions, and the depravity of our sinful nature we are simultaneously alive in Christ, as a new creation, the new man--the new Adam--which is in Christ. So that united to, and in Christ, we are perfectly righteous before the Father by the declaration of righteousness to us; and by faith we live, walking in and living in and by the Holy Spirit who aids us, who calls us, to keeps us, preserves us, and holds us firm in Christ and the work of God continues. So that we are, in this present moment, a people continuously called to mortify our flesh (that is, to deny the old man and live humbly by repentance) and to continuously hold firm to Christ in faith trusting in the full promises of God that we are His. For God having declared these good things over us graciously holds us and keeps us. We therefore look back to what Christ has done, and find ourselves there in His suffering, death, and resurrection and there we are justified; we find ourselves also looking forward to when all these good things shall reach their completion on the Day of the Lord Jesus, when He comes again as Judge and even these mortal bodies are raised up to immortality and life everlasting--and right now, in this very moment we inhabit at this exact second we live and walk by faith, according to God's grace, trusting in what has been done, hoping for what is to come, and therefore confessing that we justified, forgiven, and being made holy.

The Christian life is one that corresponds to the past, present, and future all at once. The work of Christ is done and finished, and in His finished work I am justified; God now in my present gives me freely the benefits of this work through Word and Sacrament, so that by faith I cling to Christ and what He has done; and when Christ comes again in glory as Judge, I shall be vindicated and have that life which shall never die in the unceasing future ages of ages.

iustificatus sum
I am justified

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CoreyD]

So a man had 100 sheep. Lost one. Left the 99 on the mountain to search for the 1, until he found it.
A man planted a vineyard. Lent it out to cultivators. Went away. Sent slaves to collect some produce. They got beat up. Sent his son, whom they killed...
A man had two sons. One asked for his inheritance. Left home. Spent every cent. Squandered food from swine. Returned home...

Okay @Grip Docility. See you some other time.

 

[trophy33]

Christianity is meaningless and makes no sense without the resurrection of the body.

Would you say its meaningless for Christians to be saved and in heaven, in joy? If they were not resurrected physically (yet)?