The final supper verse the Seder

[daq]

Shavuah tov. More like "conclusion" or "ending"? However, I see nothing regarding the letting go of a prisoner then. I could see a similarity regarding the azazel and Yom kippur though...Yeshua and Bar Abba...

Brenton, (LXX), renders εξοδιον as a release in some places but not all.

Lev 23:36 LXX (Brenton)
36 Seven days shall ye offer whole-burnt-offerings to the Lord, and the eighth-day shall be a holy convocation to you; and ye shall offer whole-burnt-offerings to the Lord: it is a time of release, ye shall do no servile work.

Numbers 29:35 LXX (Brenton)
35 And on the eighth day there shall be to you a release: ye shall do no servile work in it.

But in Deuteronomy 16:8 Brenton renders it as a holiday for some reason: likely because he did not understand the association between the appointed times of the first month and the appointed times of the seventh month, (Yom haKippurim included, as well as Sukkot).

Ask yourself why κατα is found in the following statements:

Matthew 27:15 T/R
15 κατα δε εορτην ειωθει ο ηγεμων απολυειν ενα τω οχλω δεσμιον ον ηθελον

Mark 15:6 T/R
6 κατα δε εορτην απελυεν αυτοις ενα δεσμιον ονπερ ητουντο

Luke 23:17 T/R
17 αναγκην δε ειχεν απολυειν αυτοις κατα εορτην ενα

Does this really just mean "at the feast"??? What else may κατα mean in this context? Are the authors being intentionally vague to the point of cryptic? By the overwhelming amount of study, commentary, and debate surrounding the passion narratives, I would say that, yes, it is painfully obvious that they are being intentionally vague to the point of cryptic in quite a few places.

Why would they do that? Well, because we are supposed to know the Torah, and if not, we are being forced back to the Torah, (and Prophets, and Writings), if we wish to truly understand. In this manner the authors glorify both the Father and His Son: and anyone who has heard, and has learned from the Father, comes to the Son, (John 6:45).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Brenton, (LXX), renders εξοδιον as a release in some places but not all.

Lev 23:36 LXX (Brenton)
36 Seven days shall ye offer whole-burnt-offerings to the Lord, and the eighth-day shall be a holy convocation to you; and ye shall offer whole-burnt-offerings to the Lord: it is a time of release, ye shall do no servile work.

Numbers 29:35 LXX (Brenton)
35 And on the eighth day there shall be to you a release: ye shall do no servile work in it.

But in Deuteronomy 16:8 Brenton renders it as a holiday for some reason: likely because he did not understand the association between the appointed times of the first month and the appointed times of the seventh month, (Yom haKippurim included, as well as Sukkot).

Ask yourself why κατα is found in the following statements:

Matthew 27:15 T/R
15 κατα δε εορτην ειωθει ο ηγεμων απολυειν ενα τω οχλω δεσμιον ον ηθελον

Mark 15:6 T/R
6 κατα δε εορτην απελυεν αυτοις ενα δεσμιον ονπερ ητουντο

Luke 23:17 T/R
17 αναγκην δε ειχεν απολυειν αυτοις κατα εορτην ενα

Does this really just mean "at the feast"??? What else may κατα mean in this context? Are the authors being intentionally vague to the point of cryptic? By the overwhelming amount of study, commentary, and debate surrounding the passion narratives, I would say that, yes, it is painfully obvious that they are being intentionally vague to the point of cryptic in quite a few places.

Why would they do that? Well, because we are supposed to know the Torah, and if not, we are being forced back to the Torah, (and Prophets, and Writings), if we wish to truly understand. In this manner the authors glorify both the Father and His Son: and anyone who has heard, and has learned from the Father, comes to the Son, (John 6:45).

Not sure I see it that way. This happened within context of the 14th...

 

[daq]

Not sure I see it that way. This happened within context of the 14th...

Three prayers in Gethsemane, three nights, (and thus three days).

Matthew 26:34
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, that this night, before the rooster crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Mark 14:30
30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, that thou to-day, even this night, before the rooster crow twice, shalt deny me thrice.

Luke 22:34
34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day, until thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

That would mean that from the night or early morning when he was arrested, (in the midst of the feast), there would have been three days and three nights more spent in the heart of the earth, (the underground pit-dungeon below the High Priest's official residence). The correctly understood Torah calendar and the time prophecies in Daniel the Prophet bear this out, but of course, that would take far too much explanation for this thread.

Modern Judaism does not observe the Pesach in the same exact way as it is originally commanded in Exodus 12, for they say that the commandment not to go forth out of the house until morning was only for that special first occasion in Mitzraim. But what about the Master and his talmidim? Would they have left the house the first night before it was morning? It could have been essentially a twenty-four hour Seder full of teaching: it does not appear to me that one can tell for sure either way from the Gospel accounts.

 

[dfw69]

As far as I can tell there is no way around the following statements.

Matthew 26:17-20 ASV
17 Now on the first day of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, Where wilt thou that we make ready for thee to eat the passover?
18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Teacher saith, My time is at hand; I keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
19 And the disciples did as Jesus appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
20 Now when even was come, he was sitting at meat with the twelve disciples;

Unleavened Bread is the feast of Matzot and begins with the 15th. If the prote, (as explained previously), means the day or evening right before Matzot, (the beginning of the 15th), then it is already ahead by a day, that is, not a full day but a day using inclusive counting/reckoning.

I believe the scriptures are leavened so I don’t believe they ate the Passover . The disciples may have thought they were going to eat the Passover with Jesus but Jesus would die on the 14th not after nor any other day afterwards .

If we say the day begins at noon: that would mean the day ends just before noon the next day, and your proposal cannot work. Likewise if we say the day begins at nightfall, (as was the case with the Yhudim in the first century), then the day ends at nightfall the next day, and your proposal cannot work. If we say that it is Roman time, and the day commences at midnight, the day would therefore end at midnight the next day, and you proposal still cannot work.

Thus the reason for the leavening of the scriptures to deceive or create doubt in the good news so that Jews would not accept is as truth …

This in all cases is because verse twenty above says that when evening was come he was sitting at meat with the talmidim. No matter how you reckon a day, the next evening at the same time would have been a day too late, and the previous evening at the same time would have been a day too early. Moreover the Master himself tells his talmidim to say to the "master of the house", (from the Mark text), "I keep the Pesach", (at your house with my talmidim). He specifically states that he is going to be keeping-observing the Pesach: this is no doubt what is commanded in Exodus 12.

Moreover Mark gives us even more information:

Mark 14:12-17 ASV
12 And on the first day of unleavened bread, when they sacrificed the passover, his disciples say unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and make ready that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mark is wrong isn’t he because the sacrifice is always on the 14th and the first day of unleavened bread is on the 15th according to todays teachings ?

Now if mark is correct then unleavened bread began on the 14th when they are commanded to take out leaven from the house and make unleavened bread which could be a possibility if mark is correct ..so it’s possible to eat unleavened bread on the 14th …but then it goes against todays teachings

13 And he sendeth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him;
14 and wheresoever he shall enter in, say to the master of the house, The Teacher saith, Where is my guest-chamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
15 And he will himself show you a large upper room furnished and ready: and there make ready for us.
16 And the disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
17 And when it was evening he cometh with the twelve.

Now we are told that the prote day of Matzot or Unleavened Bread is "when they sacrificed the Pesach", (the Passover sacrifice). This therefore cannot be any other time than what is prescribed in the Torah concerning the Pesach commencing with the Exodus 12 passage and all other Torah passages concerning the Pesach.

The Luke passage then makes this fact explicitly clear, saying, in which the Pesach must be sacrificed.

Luke 22:7 ASV
7 And the day of unleavened bread came on which the passover must be sacrificed.

This day can be understood several different ways depending on how the biblical day is reckoned, (for example the three main possibilities mentioned above), but there is no doubt that the entire episode is according to the commandments concerning the Pesach, commencing with what is commanded in Exodus 12. There is no indication whatsoever that a sort-of new day of remembrance is being instituted for "the N/T church".

Yes it can because they ate the new Seder on the day of preparation not on the 15th as stated

If the first day of unleavened is indeed the 15th then there is a little leavening in the lump

 

[daq]

I believe the scriptures are leavened so I don’t believe they ate the Passover . The disciples may have thought they were going to eat the Passover with Jesus but Jesus would die on the 14th not after nor any other day afterwards .

Okay, I was not aware that you believed that.
Not much else I can say here if you do not believe the scripture record is reliable.

 

[dfw69]

Okay, I was not aware that you believed that.
Not much else I can say here if you do not believe the scripture record is reliable.

Daq I’m still interested as to what you believe…I’m wondering when or what day you believe was He condemned?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Three prayers in Gethsemane, three nights, (and thus three days).

Matthew 26:34
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, that this night, before the rooster crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Mark 14:30
30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, that thou to-day, even this night, before the rooster crow twice, shalt deny me thrice.

Luke 22:34
34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the rooster shall not crow this day, until thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

That would mean that from the night or early morning when he was arrested, (in the midst of the feast), there would have been three days and three nights more spent in the heart of the earth, (the underground pit-dungeon below the High Priest's official residence). The correctly understood Torah calendar and the time prophecies in Daniel the Prophet bear this out, but of course, that would take far too much explanation for this thread.

Modern Judaism does not observe the Pesach in the same exact way as it is originally commanded in Exodus 12, for they say that the commandment not to go forth out of the house until morning was only for that special first occasion in Mitzraim. But what about the Master and his talmidim? Would they have left the house the first night before it was morning? It could have been essentially a twenty-four hour Seder full of teaching: it does not appear to me that one can tell for sure either way from the Gospel accounts.

I don't see any association to the rooster. Also, you could say the same thing regarding the blood on the doorpost was only done once, when it happened...the rest is a commemoration. They all left after the Last Supper to Gan Gethsemane where Yeshua was arrested. In the morning of the 14th, before the lambs were slain, He was tried and sent to death. He died as the lambs were being slain. He rose on the 3rd day, on Yom Rishon. As Adam was created on the 6th day, so Yeshua was killed then. Shabbat was the 7th day and on the first day (or the 8 day) of the new week, He was made alive again.