The final supper verse the Seder

[dfw69]

I have a few questions for anyone interested in answering …

Was the last supper and the Seder the same meal eaten by Jesus and the disciples or was it a different meal?

Though there are some similarities, I think they were different and here’s why …

First off the last supper was eaten on the Eve of the 14th and the Seder is eaten on the 15th



During the last supper there was the washing of feet
Dipping of bread
No mention of eating lamb
Nor of bitter herbs
There was the breaking of bread but it was not hidden like the afikomen but given to be eaten signifying his body to be broken for many
A cup of wine signifies his blood of the new covenant
Promises were made
Nazarene vow made

I’m asking if anyone sees similarities or differences to comment

A similar note I see is that there were prophetic utterances announced in both meals

Thanks

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I have a few questions for anyone interested in answering …

Was the last supper and the Seder the same meal eaten by Jesus and the disciples or was it a different meal?

Though there are some similarities, I think they were different and here’s why …

First off the last supper was eaten on the Eve of the 14th and the Seder is eaten on the 15th



During the last supper there was the washing of feet
Dipping of bread
No mention of eating lamb
Nor of bitter herbs
There was the breaking of bread but it was not hidden like the afikomen but given to be eaten signifying his body to be broken for many
A cup of wine signifies his blood of the new covenant
Promises were made
Nazarene vow made

I’m asking if anyone sees similarities or differences to comment

A similar note I see is that there were prophetic utterances announced in both meals

Thanks

I see our previous conversations may have influenced you

 

[dfw69]

I see our previous conversations may have influenced you

Although I have not ask this question In the original post …Do you Yeshua see a possible prophetic sign in this thought ?

 

[dfw69]

I see our previous conversations may have influenced you

To be honest , I saw a post on another thread about the 4 cups of the Seder and it caught my eye when he mentioned the prophetic significance of them , but I have enjoyed our past conversation and thank you for your replies…

To be honest, I hold more to the 4 phases of the same world than the 4 world reference.

I will bring out (a people from among the peoples of the earth / the called out Jewish people)

I will deliver (my people from my wrath on the earth)*

I will redeem (a people from the eternal death sentence already decreed over mankind / Messianics - Christians)

I will take (my redeemed people to the new heaven / earth)

* placed in this sequential order since the deliverance of Noah was a deliverance on a global scale as will be the deliverance from the Great Tribulation

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Although I have not ask this question In the original post …Do you Yeshua see a possible prophetic sign in this thought ?

In Revelation, sure Marriage supper of the lamb

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

To be honest , I saw a post on another thread about the 4 cups of the Seder and it caught my eye when he mentioned the prophetic significance of them , but I have enjoyed our past conversation and thank you for your replies…

Be careful, some parts of the seder now are NOT the same as in the time of Yeshua...

 

[dfw69]

Be careful, some parts of the seder now are NOT the same as in the time of Yeshua...

Like what exactly?

 

[dfw69]

In Revelation, sure Marriage supper of the lamb

There a greater one I will reveal later ..it’s simple to see if you know what to look for …

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Like what exactly?

The seder developed over centuries with subtractions and additions. Really does not matter in this situation because the last supper was not a seder...

 

[dfw69]

The seder developed over centuries with subtractions and additions.

I see

Really does not matter in this situation because the last supper was not a seder...

But there was an order in what could be the new Seder or the Christian Seder before the Seder of the Moses

Also Jesus said to do this in remembrance of me on the 14th which is the day of preparation

As the Seder is to be remembered …so too is the Seder before the Seder to be remembered

But perhaps because of persecutions throughout history against such practices that first Seder was hindered from being a part of history ..

The Easter bunny was given to be popularized instead and not as a pagan ritual though some think so but as worldly substitute to take away from the (hidden) Seder before the Seder

 

[daq]

But there was an order in what could be the new Seder or the Christian Seder before the Seder of the Moses

Also Jesus said to do this in remembrance of me on the 14th which is the day of preparation

As the Seder is to be remembered …so too is the Seder before the Seder to be remembered

But perhaps because of persecutions throughout history against such practices that first Seder was hindered from being a part of history ..

The Easter bunny was given to be popularized instead and not as a pagan ritual though some think so but as worldly substitute to take away from the (hidden) Seder before the Seder

The problem is that no one can actually prove on which date the crucifixion actually occurred. People speculate that it was the fifteenth because of paradigm but I do not believe the Torah, Prophets, and the N/T teach that. The Seder was the same evening it always was and is but there are days, yes days, between that and the crucifixion. The Atzeret-Exodion release, (the day in which Barabbas was released according to the custom based on the Torah), falls at the end of the week of Matzot, not the beginning.

The first cup of the Seder is called Kiddush and commences the Seder. This cup is not mentioned in the Gospel accounts because it is obvious. The second cup is called the cup of plagues and is the first cup mentioned in the Gospel accounts, in the Matthew and Mark versions, and occurs while they were eating. The third cup is the cup of redemption or cup of salvation and this is the cup after or at the end of the Seder, and this one is only mentioned in the Luke 22 passage, and it is there called the new(renewed) covenant. The final cup is a little more vague because it is understood differently among different sects, but this is probably the cup mentioned afterwards during the prayer that night in the garden of Gethsemane.

To understand why the cup mentioned in Matthew and Mark is the cup of plagues, and why this is right, all one needs to do is actually believe Luke 17:20-21 for what it plainly states, (without playing word sorcery games and exchanging the meanings of entos and mesos), and be willing to be brought forth out of Mitzraim, (Egypt), and be willing to have the inside of the cup cleansed, (atonement), so as not to end up as a whitewashed tomb, clean on the outside, but full of dead men's bones on the inside.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Also Jesus said to do this in remembrance of me on the 14th which is the day of preparation

The 14th is Pesakh. The day of preparation is always the day before the weekly Sabbath...erev shabbat

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Atzeret-Exodion release, (the day in which Barabbas was released according to the custom based on the Torah), falls at the end of the week of Matzot, not the beginning.

Where do you find this in Torah? Shabbat Shalom

 

[daq]

Where do you find this in Torah? Shabbat Shalom

Deuteronomy 16:8 KJV
8 Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly [atzeret] to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein.

However atzeret is rendered as exodion the LXX, which is likely why people are not often able to find this custom, (it became a custom later, likely attached to the day because of the meaning of exodion, whether it is a correct representation of the word atzeret or not).

Deuteronomy 16:8 OG LXX
8 εξ ημερας φαγη αζυμα και τη ημερα τη εβδομη εξοδιον εορτη κυριω τω θεω σου ου ποιησεις εν αυτη παν εργον πλην οσα ποιηθησεται ψυχη

An exodion is similar to an exodus, but an exodus is a departure, while an exodion is a release or sending away. If I remember correctly atzeret is always rendered as exodion in the LXX but the other references are of course speaking of Shemini Atzeret, the eighth day of Sukkot. Speaking of this day, in Nehemiah, we even see it called a mishpat, which does sometimes mean a custom.

Nehemiah 8:18 KJV
18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, [atzeret] according unto the manner [mishpat].

Regarding Matzot, Peter was also set to be brought before the people on the same day in Acts 12:3-4.
Shabbat Shalom

 

[dfw69]

The problem is that no one can actually prove on which date the crucifixion actually occurred.

If He was the Passover lamb and the Passover lamb was slaughtered on the 14th as commanded naturally I assume and believe that was the day of His death

People speculate that it was the fifteenth because of paradigm but I do not believe the Torah, Prophets, and the N/T teach that.

Yea it could not have been on the sabbath day, the day the Seder is eaten

The Seder was the same evening it always was and is but there are days, yes days, between that and the crucifixion. The Atzeret-Exodion release, (the day in which Barabbas was released according to the custom based on the Torah), falls at the end of the week of Matzot, not the beginning.

Your suggesting the Seder was eaten on the 15th as always yet BarAbbas was released on the 7th day of unleavened bread? So barabbas was released on the 21st and the crucifixion was on that same day?

If this is a true custom and the release of a prisoner or prisoners always took place at the end of unleavened bread then It’s highly possible that the BarAbbas released story never took place during His trial but was added to discredit the good news

I read an article that suggested Pilate was a cruel and violent man who would never have allowed a prisoner such as BarAbbas to go free or care to have such a custom with the Jews

The first cup of the Seder is called Kiddush and commences the Seder. This cup is not mentioned in the Gospel accounts because it is obvious. The second cup is called the cup of plagues and is the first cup mentioned in the Gospel accounts, in the Matthew and Mark versions, and occurs while they were eating. The third cup is the cup of redemption or cup of salvation and this is the cup after or at the end of the Seder, and this one is only mentioned in the Luke 22 passage, and it is there called the new(renewed) covenant. The final cup is a little more vague because it is understood differently among different sects, but this is probably the cup mentioned afterwards during the prayer that night in the garden of Gethsemane.

To understand why the cup mentioned in Matthew and Mark is the cup of plagues, and why this is right, all one needs to do is actually believe Luke 17:20-21 for what it plainly states, (without playing word sorcery games and exchanging the meanings of entos and mesos), and be willing to be brought forth out of Mitzraim, (Egypt), and be willing to have the inside of the cup cleansed, (atonement), so as not to end up as a whitewashed tomb, clean on the outside, but full of dead men's bones on the inside.

See that’s the thing Daq..Jesus and His disciples had their New Seder before the old Seder

The old Seder commemorates the events leading up to the exodus out of Egypt .The new Seder reveals the previson of the new exodus out of this world by way of rapture through His sacrifice

This was a new prophetic Seder of the New Covenant made with His disciples and those who put their faith on these things and their witness.

This new prophetic Seder took place on the eve of Nissan the 14th where new promises were made which is recorded in John 14 such as the rapture to His Fathers house when He returns. During this Seder feet washing took place by the Rabbi and one loaf of unleavened bread was broken up and one cup was drank to remember His promises and sacrifice

 

[daq]

If He was the Passover lamb and the Passover lamb was slaughtered on the 14th as commanded naturally I assume and believe that was the day of His death




Yea it could not have been on the sabbath day, the day the Seder is eaten



Your suggesting the Seder was eaten on the 15th as always yet BarAbbas was released on the 7th day of unleavened bread? So barabbas was released on the 21st and the crucifixion was on that same day?

If this is a true custom and the release of a prisoner or prisoners always took place at the end of unleavened bread then It’s highly possible that the BarAbbas released story never took place during His trial but was added to discredit the good news

I read an article that suggested Pilate was a cruel and violent man who would never have allowed a prisoner such as BarAbbas to go free or care to have such a custom with the Jews





See that’s the thing Daq..Jesus and His disciples had their New Seder before the old Seder

The old Seder commemorates the events leading up to the exodus out of Egypt .The new Seder reveals the previson of the new exodus out of this world by way of rapture through His sacrifice

This was a new prophetic Seder of the New Covenant made with His disciples and those who put their faith on these things and their witness.

This new prophetic Seder took place on the eve of Nissan the 14th where new promises were made which is recorded in John 14 such as the rapture to His Fathers house when He returns. During this Seder feet washing took place by the Rabbi and one loaf of unleavened bread was broken up and one cup was drank to remember His promises and sacrifice

Interesting, so you do not believe the Meshiah fulfilled all of Pesach-Matzot? When Paul says "Meshiah our Pesach is sacrificed for us" he means, of course, the pesach sacrifice. However in the same passage which I previously quoted above, Deuteronomy 16, we read that Mosheh refers to the whole week as the Pesach or Passover, and this we can know because there is not a sacrifice from the herd commanded for the first night of the Pesach.

Deuteronomy 16:1-2 KJV
1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.

This statement therefore speaks of the whole week as the Pesach or Passover, including the seven days of Matzot, not just the first sacrifice between the evenings, which is also the likely case in the Gospel accounts in certain places which appear to mean only the first day, (for example John 18:28). Moreover, in Exodus 13:6, we read that there is indeed a feast unto the Most High in the seventh day of Matzot.

Exodus 13:6 KJV
6 Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.

Moreover there is this statement concerning the timing in multiple accounts:

Matthew 26:3-5 ASV
3 Then were gathered together the chief priests, and the elders of the people, unto the court of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas;
4 and they took counsel together that they might take Jesus by subtlety, and kill him.
5 But they said, Not during the feast, lest a tumult arise among the people.

Mark 14:1-2 ASV
1 Now after two days was the feast of the passover and the unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him with subtlety, and kill him:
2 for they said, Not during the feast, lest haply there shall be a tumult of the people.

These things are written because they are true, and the authors wrote them for our understanding, and the rulers of the people did not suddenly change their minds about this and do something different than what is stated: this statement therefore cannot be ignored. Additionally it is perfectly clear in multiple accounts that the Meshiah and his disciples kept the Pesach in its appointed time, the day in which the Pesach must be sacrificed.

Matthew 26:17 N/A-W/H
17 τη δε πρωτη των αζυμων προσηλθον οι μαθηται τω ιησου λεγοντες που θελεις ετοιμασωμεν σοι φαγειν το πασχα

The prote of the Azumon is the foremost day immediately upon-before the feast of the Azumon, (Matzot, Unleavened Bread).

Mark 14:12 N/A-W/H
12 και τη πρωτη ημερα των αζυμων οτε το πασχα εθυον λεγουσιν αυτω οι μαθηται αυτου που θελεις απελθοντες ετοιμασωμεν ινα φαγης το πασχα

And Luke tells us that this is the day when the Pesach must be sacrificed: and in Luke 22:1 the author tells us that the whole week of Matzot or Unleaveen Bread is called the Pesach or Passover. Why does the author find a need to clarify this if what I have presented from the scripture is not true? His statement is based on Deuteronomy 16:2 quoted above herein.

Luke 22:1 ASV
1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

Then, in the same passage, the author explains that what the other authors are calling the prote of the Azumon is the day wherein the Pesach must be sacrificed, (because it is according to the Torah).

Luke 22:7 ASV
7 And the day of unleavened bread came on which the passover must be sacrificed.

There is no way around all of these scripture facts, it cannot have happened the way you have surmised: it is what it is according to the scripture. Moreover in this manner, the way presented in all the things I have offered thus far, the Meshiah fulfills the entire feast of Pesach-Matzot. Some Rabbi's have recognized this feast of Meshiah in the last day of Matzot, (particularly Chabad Lubavitch, see Moshiach's Meal), but having rejected the true Meshiah they cannot see that it has already been fulfilled.

Regarding the so-called Rapture: perhaps it is not quite what you have imagined it will be? I am going to slightly adjust only a single word in the following text for clarity: "And", which is very likely to be understood in this context as "Also", which I will put in red bold brackets.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 ASV
1 I must needs glory, though it is not expedient; but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one [G5108 τοιουτος] caught up [G726 harpazo] even to the third heaven.
3 And [Also] I know such a man [G5108 τοιουτος + ανθρωπος] (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
4 how that he was caught up [G726 harpazo] into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Herein we have G726 harpazo not once but twice, and this is the same word used for the term rapture in the remainder of the writings of Saul who becomes Paul, (rapture actually comes from the equivalent Latin word in the Vulgate, which you may already know, but if not, see Etymology in this wiki link).

Thus we have two entities, two labeled as "such a one", (G5108 τοιουτος), which are both "raptured" here in this vision or revelation given to Saul who becomes Paul.

1) Which one was raptured into the third heaven uttering things not lawful for a man to utter? (Luke 23:39).
2) Which one having been crucified with Meshiah was raptured into Paradise with Meshiah? (Luke 23:40-43).

The one heard the other blaspheming: they are not the same, ehem, "person".

 

[dfw69]

Interesting, so you do not believe the Meshiah fulfilled all of Pesach-Matzot? When Paul says "Meshiah our Pesach is sacrificed for us" he means, of course, the pesach sacrifice. However in the same passage which I previously quoted above, Deuteronomy 16, we read that Mosheh refers to the whole week as the Pesach or Passover, and this we can know because there is not a sacrifice from the herd commanded for the first night of the Pesach.

Deuteronomy 16:1-2 KJV
1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.

This statement therefore speaks of the whole week as the Pesach or Passover, including the seven days of Matzot, not just the first sacrifice between the evenings, which is also the likely case in the Gospel accounts in certain places which appear to mean only the first day, (for example John 18:28). Moreover, in Exodus 13:6, we read that there is indeed a feast unto the Most High in the seventh day of Matzot.

Exodus 13:6 KJV
6 Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.

Moreover there is this statement concerning the timing in multiple accounts:

Matthew 26:3-5 ASV
3 Then were gathered together the chief priests, and the elders of the people, unto the court of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas;
4 and they took counsel together that they might take Jesus by subtlety, and kill him.
5 But they said, Not during the feast, lest a tumult arise among the people.

Mark 14:1-2 ASV
1 Now after two days was the feast of the passover and the unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him with subtlety, and kill him:
2 for they said, Not during the feast, lest haply there shall be a tumult of the people.

These things are written because they are true, and the authors wrote them for our understanding, and the rulers of the people did not suddenly change their minds about this and do something different than what is stated: this statement therefore cannot be ignored. Additionally it is perfectly clear in multiple accounts that the Meshiah and his disciples kept the Pesach in its appointed time, the day in which the Pesach must be sacrificed.

Matthew 26:17 N/A-W/H
17 τη δε πρωτη των αζυμων προσηλθον οι μαθηται τω ιησου λεγοντες που θελεις ετοιμασωμεν σοι φαγειν το πασχα

The prote of the Azumon is the foremost day immediately upon-before the feast of the Azumon, (Matzot, Unleavened Bread).

Mark 14:12 N/A-W/H
12 και τη πρωτη ημερα των αζυμων οτε το πασχα εθυον λεγουσιν αυτω οι μαθηται αυτου που θελεις απελθοντες ετοιμασωμεν ινα φαγης το πασχα

And Luke tells us that this is the day when the Pesach must be sacrificed: and in Luke 22:1 the author tells us that the whole week of Matzot or Unleaveen Bread is called the Pesach or Passover. Why does the author find a need to clarify this if what I have presented from the scripture is not true? His statement is based on Deuteronomy 16:2 quoted above herein.

Luke 22:1 ASV
1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

Then, in the same passage, the author explains that what the other authors are calling the prote of the Azumon is the day wherein the Pesach must be sacrificed, (because it is according to the Torah).

Luke 22:7 ASV
7 And the day of unleavened bread came on which the passover must be sacrificed.

There is no way around all of these scripture facts, it cannot have happened the way you have surmised: it is what it is according to the scripture. Moreover in this manner, the way presented in all the things I have offered thus far, the Meshiah fulfills the entire feast of Pesach-Matzot. Some Rabbi's have recognized this feast of Meshiah in the last day of Matzot, (particularly Chabad Lubavitch, see Moshiach's Meal), but having rejected the true Meshiah they cannot see that it has already been fulfilled.

Regarding the so-called Rapture: perhaps it is not quite what you have imagined it will be? I am going to slightly adjust only a single word in the following text for clarity: "And", which is very likely to be understood in this context as "Also", which I will put in red bold brackets.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 ASV
1 I must needs glory, though it is not expedient; but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one [G5108 τοιουτος] caught up [G726 harpazo] even to the third heaven.
3 And [Also] I know such a man [G5108 τοιουτος + ανθρωπος] (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
4 how that he was caught up [G726 harpazo] into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Herein we have G726 harpazo not once but twice, and this is the same word used for the term rapture in the remainder of the writings of Saul who becomes Paul, (rapture actually comes from the equivalent Latin word in the Vulgate, which you may already know, but if not, see Etymology in this wiki link).

Thus we have two entities, two labeled as "such a one", (G5108 τοιουτος), which are both "raptured" here in this vision or revelation given to Saul who becomes Paul.

1) Which one was raptured into the third heaven uttering things not lawful for a man to utter? (Luke 23:39).
2) Which one having been crucified with Meshiah was raptured into Paradise with Meshiah? (Luke 23:40-43).

The one heard the other blaspheming: they are not the same, ehem, "person".

Daq there was only one day that death came over the land to seek out the firstborn and Passover the blood stain homes signifying the firstborn of the house were already dead being transferred to the lamb death for the firstborn of the house. The lambs blood was proof enough that the sacrifice was already fulfilled

Just as death Passover the firstborn because of the death and sacrifice of the Lamb, Jesus became our Passover from the law of sin and death once and for all who believe

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Deuteronomy 16:8 KJV
8 Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly [atzeret] to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein.

However atzeret is rendered as exodion the LXX, which is likely why people are not often able to find this custom, (it became a custom later, likely attached to the day because of the meaning of exodion, whether it is a correct representation of the word atzeret or not).

Deuteronomy 16:8 OG LXX
8 εξ ημερας φαγη αζυμα και τη ημερα τη εβδομη εξοδιον εορτη κυριω τω θεω σου ου ποιησεις εν αυτη παν εργον πλην οσα ποιηθησεται ψυχη

An exodion is similar to an exodus, but an exodus is a departure, while an exodion is a release or sending away. If I remember correctly atzeret is always rendered as exodion in the LXX but the other references are of course speaking of Shemini Atzeret, the eighth day of Sukkot. Speaking of this day, in Nehemiah, we even see it called a mishpat, which does sometimes mean a custom.

Nehemiah 8:18 KJV
18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, [atzeret] according unto the manner [mishpat].

Regarding Matzot, Peter was also set to be brought before the people on the same day in Acts 12:3-4.
Shabbat Shalom

Shavuah tov. More like "conclusion" or "ending"? However, I see nothing regarding the letting go of a prisoner then. I could see a similarity regarding the azazel and Yom kippur though...Yeshua and Bar Abba...

 

[dfw69]

Interesting, so you do not believe the Meshiah fulfilled all of Pesach-Matzot?

Actually I do not ..

When Paul says "Meshiah our Pesach is sacrificed for us" he means, of course, the pesach sacrifice.

yes

However in the same passage which I previously quoted above, Deuteronomy 16, we read that Mosheh refers to the whole week as the Pesach or Passover, and this we can know because there is not a sacrifice from the herd commanded for the first night of the Pesach.

I understand that …but the sacrifice was done the day before so that the Seder during the first night of Passover can be eaten with unleavened bread but technically death only passed over the house on one particular night that saved the firstborn within…yes?

Deuteronomy 16:1-2 KJV
1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.

This statement therefore speaks of the whole week as the Pesach or Passover, including the seven days of Matzot, not just the first sacrifice between the evenings, which is also the likely case in the Gospel accounts in certain places which appear to mean only the first day, (for example John 18:28). Moreover, in Exodus 13:6, we read that there is indeed a feast unto the Most High in the seventh day of Matzot.

So then Passover feast refers to the entire event from the eating of the Seder to the end of unleavened bread .. ok

Exodus 13:6 KJV
6 Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.

So there is a feast that is known to the Jews as Meshiah Feast on the 7th day of unleavened bread? …ok

But it’s believed to be a future prophecy and it may still be true for us that it has not been fulfilled yet…

Moreover there is this statement concerning the timing in multiple accounts:

Matthew 26:3-5 ASV
3 Then were gathered together the chief priests, and the elders of the people, unto the court of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas;
4 and they took counsel together that they might take Jesus by subtlety, and kill him.
5 But they said, Not during the feast, lest a tumult arise among the people.

Am I understanding you correctly that your trying to make the case that Jesus had the Meshiah feast with His disciples that day and was crucified on the 21st of Aviv?

This could very well mean that they may have wanted Him judge and condemned before the feast commenced so they rushed to have Him condemn on preparation day

Just because they conspired against Him yet did not want to condemn Him during the feast does not necessarily mean they waited till after the feast was ended .

Mark 14:1-2 ASV
1 Now after two days was the feast of the passover and the unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him with subtlety, and kill him:
2 for they said, Not during the feast, lest haply there shall be a tumult of the people.

These things are written because they are true, and the authors wrote them for our understanding, and the rulers of the people did not suddenly change their minds about this and do something different than what is stated: this statement therefore cannot be ignored. Additionally it is perfectly clear in multiple accounts that the Meshiah and his disciples kept the Pesach in its appointed time, the day in which the Pesach must be sacrificed.

Jesus entered on the 10th of Aviv and after 2 days they conspired to put him to death

Matthew 26:17 N/A-W/H
17 τη δε πρωτη των αζυμων προσηλθον οι μαθηται τω ιησου λεγοντες που θελεις ετοιμασωμεν σοι φαγειν το πασχα

The prote of the Azumon is the foremost day immediately upon-before the feast of the Azumon, (Matzot, Unleavened Bread).

Mark 14:12 N/A-W/H
12 και τη πρωτη ημερα των αζυμων οτε το πασχα εθυον λεγουσιν αυτω οι μαθηται αυτου που θελεις απελθοντες ετοιμασωμεν ινα φαγης το πασχα

And Luke tells us that this is the day when the Pesach must be sacrificed: and in Luke 22:1 the author tells us that the whole week of Matzot or Unleaveen Bread is called the Pesach or Passover. Why does the author find a need to clarify this if what I have presented from the scripture is not true? His statement is based on Deuteronomy 16:2 quoted above herein.

Luke 22:1 ASV
1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

Then, in the same passage, the author explains that what the other authors are calling the prote of the Azumon is the day wherein the Pesach must be sacrificed, (because it is according to the Torah).

Luke 22:7 ASV
7 And the day of unleavened bread came on which the passover must be sacrificed.

There is no way around all of these scripture facts, it cannot have happened the way you have surmised: it is what it is according to the scripture.

I have to disagree with you …The timing of His death was before the feast not after

Moreover in this manner, the way presented in all the things I have offered thus far, the Meshiah fulfills the entire feast of Pesach-Matzot.

Again I have to disagree with you…He fulfilled up to preparation day and the Firstfruits of the barley harvest.

The Passover from death to life and exodus to heaven and the completion of the barley harvest remains to be completed


There is a promise that Meshiah made with His disciples saying He will not have the Seder again to drink the fruit of the vine until He fulfills the promise He made which is to bring us to His Fathers house. Perhaps that will be when we enjoy the Meshiah Feast Aviv 21

Some Rabbi's have recognized this feast of Meshiah in the last day of Matzot, (particularly Chabad Lubavitch, see Moshiach's Meal), but having rejected the true Meshiah they cannot see that it has already been fulfilled.

It’s not fulfilled till we partake of it in His Fathers kingdom in Heaven

Regarding the so-called Rapture: perhaps it is not quite what you have imagined it will be?

Nothings changed my friend the rapture will be glorious …you do not want to miss out of His inheritance He has for us

I am going to slightly adjust only a single word in the following text for clarity: "And", which is very likely to be understood in this context as "Also", which I will put in red bold brackets.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 ASV
1 I must needs glory, though it is not expedient; but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one [G5108 τοιουτος] caught up [G726 harpazo] even to the third heaven.
3 And [Also] I know such a man [G5108 τοιουτος + ανθρωπος] (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
4 how that he was caught up [G726 harpazo] into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Herein we have G726 harpazo not once but twice, and this is the same word used for the term rapture in the remainder of the writings of Saul who becomes Paul, (rapture actually comes from the equivalent Latin word in the Vulgate, which you may already know, but if not, see Etymology in this wiki link).

Thus we have two entities, two labeled as "such a one", (G5108 τοιουτος), which are both "raptured" here in this vision or revelation given to Saul who becomes Paul.

1) Which one was raptured into the third heaven uttering things not lawful for a man to utter? (Luke 23:39).
2) Which one having been crucified with Meshiah was raptured into Paradise with Meshiah? (Luke 23:40-43).

The one heard the other blaspheming: they are not the same, ehem, "person".

I don’t believe paul was referring to the two men crucified with Christ in this passage but He was speaking of Himself in the 3rd person who went up twice to heaven and he heard unspeakable words meaning unable to express and not lawful to mention to others without permission

 

[daq]

Actually I do not ..

yes




I understand that …but the sacrifice was done the day before so that the Seder during the first night of Passover can be eaten with unleavened bread but technically death only passed over the house on one particular night that saved the firstborn within…yes?



So then Passover feast refers to the entire event from the eating of the Seder to the end of unleavened bread .. ok



So there is a feast that is known to the Jews as Meshiah Feast on the 7th day of unleavened bread? …ok

But it’s believed to be a future prophecy and it may still be true for us that it has not been fulfilled yet…



Am I understanding you correctly that your trying to make the case that Jesus had the Meshiah feast with His disciples that day and was crucified on the 21st of Aviv?

This could very well mean that they may have wanted Him judge and condemned before the feast commenced so they rushed to have Him condemn on preparation day

Just because they conspired against Him yet did not want to condemn Him during the feast does not necessarily mean they waited till after the feast was ended .





Jesus entered on the 10th of Aviv and after 2 days they conspired to put him to death



I have to disagree with you …The timing of His death was before the feast not after




Again I have to disagree with you…He fulfilled up to preparation day and the Firstfruits of the barley harvest.

The Passover from death to life and exodus to heaven and the completion of the barley harvest remains to be completed


There is a promise that Meshiah made with His disciples saying He will not have the Seder again to drink the fruit of the vine until He fulfills the promise He made which is to bring us to His Fathers house. Perhaps that will be when we enjoy the Meshiah Feast Aviv 21



It’s not fulfilled till we partake of it in His Fathers kingdom in Heaven



Nothings changed my friend the rapture will be glorious …you do not want to miss out of His inheritance He has for us




I don’t believe paul was referring to the two men crucified with Christ in this passage but He was speaking of Himself in the 3rd person who went up twice to heaven and he heard unspeakable words meaning unable to express and not lawful to mention to others without permission

As far as I can tell there is no way around the following statements.

Matthew 26:17-20 ASV
17 Now on the first day of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, Where wilt thou that we make ready for thee to eat the passover?
18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Teacher saith, My time is at hand; I keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
19 And the disciples did as Jesus appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
20 Now when even was come, he was sitting at meat with the twelve disciples;

Unleavened Bread is the feast of Matzot and begins with the 15th. If the prote, (as explained previously), means the day or evening right before Matzot, (the beginning of the 15th), then it is already ahead by a day, that is, not a full day but a day using inclusive counting/reckoning.

If we say the day begins at noon: that would mean the day ends just before noon the next day, and your proposal cannot work. Likewise if we say the day begins at nightfall, (as was the case with the Yhudim in the first century), then the day ends at nightfall the next day, and your proposal cannot work. If we say that it is Roman time, and the day commences at midnight, the day would therefore end at midnight the next day, and you proposal still cannot work.

This in all cases is because verse twenty above says that when evening was come he was sitting at meat with the talmidim. No matter how you reckon a day, the next evening at the same time would have been a day too late, and the previous evening at the same time would have been a day too early. Moreover the Master himself tells his talmidim to say to the "master of the house", (from the Mark text), "I keep the Pesach", (at your house with my talmidim). He specifically states that he is going to be keeping-observing the Pesach: this is no doubt what is commanded in Exodus 12.

Moreover Mark gives us even more information:

Mark 14:12-17 ASV
12 And on the first day of unleavened bread, when they sacrificed the passover, his disciples say unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and make ready that thou mayest eat the passover?
13 And he sendeth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him;
14 and wheresoever he shall enter in, say to the master of the house, The Teacher saith, Where is my guest-chamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
15 And he will himself show you a large upper room furnished and ready: and there make ready for us.
16 And the disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
17 And when it was evening he cometh with the twelve.

Now we are told that the prote day of Matzot or Unleavened Bread is "when they sacrificed the Pesach", (the Passover sacrifice). This therefore cannot be any other time than what is prescribed in the Torah concerning the Pesach commencing with the Exodus 12 passage and all other Torah passages concerning the Pesach.

The Luke passage then makes this fact explicitly clear, saying, in which the Pesach must be sacrificed.

Luke 22:7 ASV
7 And the day of unleavened bread came on which the passover must be sacrificed.

This day can be understood several different ways depending on how the biblical day is reckoned, (for example the three main possibilities mentioned above), but there is no doubt that the entire episode is according to the commandments concerning the Pesach, commencing with what is commanded in Exodus 12. There is no indication whatsoever that a sort-of new day of remembrance is being instituted for "the N/T church".