the fig tree.. explanation please.

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

wow, I've thought of this also. I do think there are layers of understanding on this, and one that I saw was that the 2 trees in the garden of great importance are: the tree of good and evil, and the tree of life. I thought of them as two family trees...trees of geneology. Which one you pick would be the family in which you will reside.

I think the two trees in the Garden represent the two sources, the tree of life is the Light, and God, and the tree of knowledge, the fallen and the Darkness.
(God wants relationship with humans, not knowledge; the angels have knowledge).

The trees also represent the separation of the temporal creation from the abyss; the nothingness that existed before the creation of the universe.. I don't know if the abyss was always there, or if it was created by God; but it seems to represent something deeper.. that God is outside of creation and the universe, but that the abyss was there in the beginning; the dark void, discerned even by non-believers.
If you study the KJV of the Garden account, you see that Eve did not give Adam any fruit.. she 'gave of the tree'.. so it wasn't literal fruit.. the language used is very specific.
I think the fall was the loss of innocence, through the acquiring of knowledge, via fallen angels and a corruption of creation.

 

[intojoy]

I know that the fig tree is thought by most to be a symbol of latter-day Israel, but why? The olive tree is the usual symbol for historic Israel. So why do most think the fig tree is such? I wonder because of when Jesus talked about the fig tree putting forth leaves, and knowing that as a sign for the coming of the kingdom.
I tend to think also that the fig tree is modern Israel, but I'd like to get some more opinions on the matter.

The fig tree is not being used as a symbol in this context. Yeshua is using the fig tree to represent a fig tree.
Let me explain. The fig tree is a literal tree being used to illustrate a point and not being used symbolically at all. So what is the point?
When the tree puts forth the bud we Jews know that summer is near right?
Well when the anti Christ desecrates the temple during the tribulation, the second coming of the messiah will be near - exactly 3&1/2 years near.
Luke's account reads behold the fig tree and all of the trees. Yeshua's disciples asked three questions here (1)when will these things be? (2) what will be the sign of your coming and? (3) what will be the sign of the end of the age?
The fig tree illustrated the answer to the second question.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

The fig tree is not being used as a symbol in this context. Yeshua is using the fig tree to represent a fig tree.
Let me explain. The fig tree is a literal tree being used to illustrate a point and not being used symbolically at all. So what is the point?
When the tree puts forth the bud we Jews know that summer is near right?
Well when the anti Christ desecrates the temple during the tribulation, the second coming of the messiah will be near - exactly 3&1/2 years near.
Luke's account reads behold the fig tree and all of the trees. Yeshua's disciples asked three questions here (1)when will these things be? (2) what will be the sign of your coming and? (3) what will be the sign of the end of the age?
The fig tree illustrated the answer to the second question.

I don't think the AC will desecrate any temple (I know many do think that) but I don't think that Daniel is a blueprint of the latter days; just some sort of archetype of the AC is exposed, not a re-run of the activities of Antiochus, which is mainly what Daniel is describing.. and imperfectly at the end of Daniel.. (they got it wrong).
I don't agree about the fig tree.. there's too much stuff in the OT about the same; Jesus was using it in the prophetic way, to describe various things, like the lack of fruit in that-day Israel, and using it as a sign for the return of Christ.
I think it's mainly to do with the evidence 'of fruit', in the nations, and in Israel.

 

[intojoy]

I don't think the AC will desecrate any temple (I know many do think that) but I don't think that Daniel is a blueprint of the latter days; just some sort of archetype of the AC is exposed, not a re-run of the activities of Antiochus, which is mainly what Daniel is describing.. and imperfectly at the end of Daniel.. (they got it wrong).
I don't agree about the fig tree.. there's too much stuff in the OT about the same; Jesus was using it in the prophetic way, to describe various things, like the lack of fruit in that-day Israel, and using it as a sign for the return of Christ.
I think it's mainly to do with the evidence 'of fruit', in the nations, and in Israel.

This section has often been misused by those who have attempted to date the Rapture or the Second Coming of the Messiah. The fig tree is often taken to mean the re-establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. Then, within a generation, that is forty years from 1948, the Second Coming must occur. This would place the Second Coming in 1988. Because the Rapture precedes the Second Coming by at least seven years, it would place the Rapture by 1981. This is simply date-setting-something the Scriptures clearly forbid. Nevertheless, date-setters continue to revise their 1981 "prophecy" year after year. Since 1988 has now come and gone, the new focus is to start the forty years with the Six-Day War in 1967. So now, some are predicting the return of the Lord around 2006-2007.

 

[intojoy]

This section has often been misused by those who have attempted to date the Rapture or the Second Coming of the Messiah. The fig tree is often taken to mean the re-establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. Then, within a generation, that is forty years from 1948, the Second Coming must occur. This would place the Second Coming in 1988. Because the Rapture precedes the Second Coming by at least seven years, it would place the Rapture by 1981. This is simply date-setting-something the Scriptures clearly forbid. Nevertheless, date-setters continue to revise their 1981 "prophecy" year after year. Since 1988 has now come and gone, the new focus is to start the forty years with the Six-Day War in 1967. So now, some are predicting the return of the Lord around 2006-2007.

From Dr Fruchtenbaum's manuscript

There are two errors in this type of reasoning and its exposition. First, the Bible nowhere limits the period of a generation to simply forty years. The one place where the term "generation" is given a specific length of time, it is reckoned to be one hundred years (Gen. 15:13-16). Actually, the term "generation" can mean "twenty," "forty," "seventy," "eighty," and "one hundred" years. Sometimes it simply means "contemporaries," much as we use the term today. That is the way it is used here. A second mistake made in this reasoning is assuming that the fig tree is a symbol of Israel and that this passage is speaking of the re-establishment of the Jewish State in 1948. This has not been mentioned anywhere in the entire Olivet Discourse. The re-establishment of Israel has merely been assumed and presupposed in the passage, but it has never been dealt with specifically . Furthermore, the usual scriptural symbol for Israel is the vine.

However, the real point of this passage is that the fig tree is being used literally as an illustration, not as a symbol for Israel. This is clearly seen from verse 29 of the Luke passage, which reads "Behold the fig tree, and all the trees." If the fig tree represents Israel, what, then, do all the other trees represent? If they refer to other nations, and since a number of nations have risen-and keep rising-since 1948, then when would the forty-year countdown really begin? Neither the fig tree nor the other trees are used symbolically to refer to any nation or nations; rather, they are being used literally as an illustration.

The point of the illustration is this: When the fig tree, and all the other trees begin to blossom, it is a sure sign that summer is on its way, because blossoming occurs in the spring. Then, in application of the illustration, Jesus said, "Even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors." Just as a blossoming fig tree means that summer is on its way, in the same way, when these events that Yeshua spoke about occur, then they can know that His return is near.

But what is it that signals the soon return of the Lord? It is not the re-establishment of Israel in 1948, because Jesus never mentioned that event in this passage. Rather, the event that He was speaking of was the Abomination of Desolation. When the Abomination of Desolation occurs, it will signal the soon return of the Messiah, namely only 3_years later. More specifically, it will be exactly 1,260 days from the Abomination of Desolation until the Second Coming.

Then Yeshua stated that the generation that sees this event-the Abomination of Desolation-will still be around when the Second Coming of the Messiah occurs 3_ years later. The point of verse 34 is not that the generation that sees the re-establishment of the Jewish State will still be here at the Second Coming, but rather, the Jewish generation that sees the Abomination of Desolation will still be here at the Second Coming. Verse 34 is intended to be a word of comfort

MBS028

 

[intojoy]

This section has often been misused by those who have attempted to date the Rapture or the Second Coming of the Messiah. The fig tree is often taken to mean the re-establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. Then, within a generation, that is forty years from 1948, the Second Coming must occur. This would place the Second Coming in 1988. Because the Rapture precedes the Second Coming by at least seven years, it would place the Rapture by 1981. This is simply date-setting-something the Scriptures clearly forbid. Nevertheless, date-setters continue to revise their 1981 "prophecy" year after year. Since 1988 has now come and gone, the new focus is to start the forty years with the Six-Day War in 1967. So now, some are predicting the return of the Lord around 2006-2007.

There are two errors in this type of reasoning and its exposition. First, the Bible nowhere limits the period of a generation to simply forty years. The one place where the term "generation" is given a specific length of time, it is reckoned to be one hundred years (Gen. 15:13-16). Actually, the term "generation" can mean "twenty," "forty," "seventy," "eighty," and "one hundred" years. Sometimes it simply means "contemporaries," much as we use the term today. That is the way it is used here. A second mistake made in this reasoning is assuming that the fig tree is a symbol of Israel and that this passage is speaking of the re-establishment of the Jewish State in 1948. This has not been mentioned anywhere in the entire Olivet Discourse. The re-establishment of Israel has merely been assumed and presupposed in the passage, but it has never been dealt with specifically . Furthermore, the usual scriptural symbol for Israel is the vine.

However, the real point of this passage is that the fig tree is being used literally as an illustration, not as a symbol for Israel. This is clearly seen from verse 29 of the Luke passage, which reads "Behold the fig tree, and all the trees." If the fig tree represents Israel, what, then, do all the other trees represent? If they refer to other nations, and since a number of nations have risen-and keep rising-since 1948, then when would the forty-year countdown really begin? Neither the fig tree nor the other trees are used symbolically to refer to any nation or nations; rather, they are being used literally as an illustration.

The point of the illustration is this: When the fig tree, and all the other trees begin to blossom, it is a sure sign that summer is on its way, because blossoming occurs in the spring. Then, in application of the illustration, Jesus said, "Even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors." Just as a blossoming fig tree means that summer is on its way, in the same way, when these events that Yeshua spoke about occur, then they can know that His return is near.

But what is it that signals the soon return of the Lord? It is not the re-establishment of Israel in 1948, because Jesus never mentioned that event in this passage. Rather, the event that He was speaking of was the Abomination of Desolation. When the Abomination of Desolation occurs, it will signal the soon return of the Messiah, namely only 3_years later. More specifically, it will be exactly 1,260 days from the Abomination of Desolation until the Second Coming.

Then Yeshua stated that the generation that sees this event-the Abomination of Desolation-will still be around when the Second Coming of the Messiah occurs 3_ years later. The point of verse 34 is not that the generation that sees the re-establishment of the Jewish State will still be here at the Second Coming, but rather, the Jewish generation that sees the Abomination of Desolation will still be here at the Second Coming. Verse 34 is intended to be a word of comfort

MBS028 - from Fruchtenbaum's The Olivet Discourse

 

[intojoy]

There are two errors in this type of reasoning and its exposition. First, the Bible nowhere limits the period of a generation to simply forty years. The one place where the term "generation" is given a specific length of time, it is reckoned to be one hundred years (Gen. 15:13-16). Actually, the term "generation" can mean "twenty," "forty," "seventy," "eighty," and "one hundred" years. Sometimes it simply means "contemporaries," much as we use the term today. That is the way it is used here. A second mistake made in this reasoning is assuming that the fig tree is a symbol of Israel and that this passage is speaking of the re-establishment of the Jewish State in 1948. This has not been mentioned anywhere in the entire Olivet Discourse. The re-establishment of Israel has merely been assumed and presupposed in the passage, but it has never been dealt with specifically . Furthermore, the usual scriptural symbol for Israel is the vine.

However, the real point of this passage is that the fig tree is being used literally as an illustration, not as a symbol for Israel. This is clearly seen from verse 29 of the Luke passage, which reads "Behold the fig tree, and all the trees." If the fig tree represents Israel, what, then, do all the other trees represent? If they refer to other nations, and since a number of nations have risen-and keep rising-since 1948, then when would the forty-year countdown really begin? Neither the fig tree nor the other trees are used symbolically to refer to any nation or nations; rather, they are being used literally as an illustration.

The point of the illustration is this: When the fig tree, and all the other trees begin to blossom, it is a sure sign that summer is on its way, because blossoming occurs in the spring. Then, in application of the illustration, Jesus said, "Even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors." Just as a blossoming fig tree means that summer is on its way, in the same way, when these events that Yeshua spoke about occur, then they can know that His return is near.

But what is it that signals the soon return of the Lord? It is not the re-establishment of Israel in 1948, because Jesus never mentioned that event in this passage. Rather, the event that He was speaking of was the Abomination of Desolation. When the Abomination of Desolation occurs, it will signal the soon return of the Messiah, namely only 3_years later. More specifically, it will be exactly 1,260 days from the Abomination of Desolation until the Second Coming.

Then Yeshua stated that the generation that sees this event-the Abomination of Desolation-will still be around when the Second Coming of the Messiah occurs 3_ years later. The point of verse 34 is not that the generation that sees the re-establishment of the Jewish State will still be here at the Second Coming, but rather, the Jewish generation that sees the Abomination of Desolation will still be here at the Second Coming. Verse 34 is intended to be a word of comfort

MBS028 - from Fruchtenbaum's The Olivet Discourse

in light of the world-wide attempt at Jewish destruction. It must be kept in mind that the Abomination of Desolation signals Satan's and the Antichrist's final attempt to exterminate the Jews. The fact that the Jewish generation will still be here when the Second Coming of the Messiah occurs shows that Satan's attempt toward Jewish destruction will fail, and the Jewish saints of the second half of the Tribulation can receive comfort from these words.

The "coming" referred to in this passage is not the Rapture, for which no signs are promised, but the Second Coming itself. This is evident from the Luke account, for he states that what the Abomination of Desolation signals is the coming of the Kingdom of God. The Millennial Kingdom will be a result of the Second Coming, not of the Rapture. Again, the point of this section is not that the fig tree represents Israel in 1948, but rather, the fig tree is being used literally as an illustration. The point of the illustration is to provide a word of comfort that the world-wide attempt to destroy the Jews is destined for failure, for the Jewish generation that sees the Abomination of Desolation will still be around when the Messiah returns

 

[intojoy]

Forgive me for posting Dr Fruchtenbaum's work here but I know that exposer is limited amongst us believers when it comes to this interpretation so I thought it appropriate to provide a different take on the fig tree passage.

 

[intojoy]

*exposure

 

[shturt678]

The ol' math routine: "This generation" = "kind of Jews" till the one ("1") end, ie, not 2 or 3 Parousias. Definitely not the contemporary generation. Agape those Hawaiian figs.

 

[Interplanner]

to Intojoy #62,
you've taken a step toward practicality: there is no symbol at all, except the normal cycle of the tree when leaves appear.

The problem is you are not free from the obsession here to make just about everything Jesus says (unless its obviously about adultery or tithing) to have some kind of rapturized-chronologized-trib-planning meaning. It does not. All this comes from the whole modern scene which cut off from historic meaning. Have a look at the treatment of Luke on the DofJ thread, and you may see what I mean.

 

[Interplanner]

There is a great dislike for the Jews, but in 40 years of intermittent research I have never seen a reason why the AofD would refer to an attack on them. Part of this conception must come from reading everything futurely, so that the reader is trying to solve why Jews would flee their country in some obscure circumstance of the/our future.

A people in a covenant with the Lord are the only ones who can commit an abomination. We know this from being familiar with the terms of the covenant in the Torah. In the case of this one, it causes/leads to the city and temple being desolated. This is an act, perhaps a collective one, by Israel that desolates.

Israel's 'house' (national identity, really) was declared desolate in Mt 23, which is part of the reason for the uneasy questions of the disciples in ch24. They just realized their train was going the opposite direction. They were planning on being the enthroned team in a new kingdom. 40 days after the rez they were still asking about it, and told to knock it off.

Mt 24A (before v29) is about Judea in the 1st century. B is global and about the end of time, with some loops back because some warnings are very similar. B was expected right after A, but there was always the allowance that the Father would decide when to end this world.

If there was ever an answer a hopeful group didn't want to hear, it was Mt 24A. Everything they thought they were going to be and do was pretty much blasted, and they were going to have to leave the country, too. In fact the whole place was going up in smoke and would be the worst episode of Israel's history. "The end" could be the end of the temple, the end of Judaism, the end of Israel. At least leave the door open to that.

Back to the AofD, historically speaking, it is the acts of the zealots and Judaizers which are the most upsetting to Jesus and for a complete treatment read the thread 'Luke on the DofJ' because Jesus is onto that topic before the half point of the story.

btw, the desolation does ruin the nation, no doubt. but that is not the cause. That is the effect. The phrase is intended that way. Mk 13:14 also provides a clue by the fact that very good early copies of Mark say "he" and other good ones say "it."

 

[shturt678]

There is a great dislike for the Jews, but in 40 years of intermittent research I have never seen a reason why the AofD would refer to an attack on them. Part of this conception must come from reading everything futurely, so that the reader is trying to solve why Jews would flee their country in some obscure circumstance of the/our future.

A people in a covenant with the Lord are the only ones who can commit an abomination. We know this from being familiar with the terms of the covenant in the Torah. In the case of this one, it causes/leads to the city and temple being desolated. This is an act, perhaps a collective one, by Israel that desolates.

Israel's 'house' (national identity, really) was declared desolate in Mt 23, which is part of the reason for the uneasy questions of the disciples in ch24. They just realized their train was going the opposite direction. They were planning on being the enthroned team in a new kingdom. 40 days after the rez they were still asking about it, and told to knock it off.

Mt 24A (before v29) is about Judea in the 1st century. B is global and about the end of time, with some loops back because some warnings are very similar. B was expected right after A, but there was always the allowance that the Father would decide when to end this world.

If there was ever an answer a hopeful group didn't want to hear, it was Mt 24A. Everything they thought they were going to be and do was pretty much blasted, and they were going to have to leave the country, too. In fact the whole place was going up in smoke and would be the worst episode of Israel's history. "The end" could be the end of the temple, the end of Judaism, the end of Israel. At least leave the door open to that.

Back to the AofD, historically speaking, it is the acts of the zealots and Judaizers which are the most upsetting to Jesus and for a complete treatment read the thread 'Luke on the DofJ' because Jesus is onto that topic before the half point of the story.

btw, the desolation does ruin the nation, no doubt. but that is not the cause. That is the effect. The phrase is intended that way. Mk 13:14 also provides a clue by the fact that very good early copies of Mark say "he" and other good ones say "it."

Neuter ergo "it."

 

[Interplanner]

It doesn't seem like you would say that if you didn't have a clear thing envisioned. What do you think is such an act?

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 72:

A people in a covenant with the Lord are the only ones who can commit an abomination.

Actually, even someone who isn't in a covenant with the Lord can commit an abomination. For the "abomination of desolation" in Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which was put in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem by Antiochus IV.

Also, per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

Interplanner said in post 72:

Mt 24A (before v29) is about Judea in the 1st century.

Regarding "in the 1st century", note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Also, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2, for the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd-temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd-temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Interplanner said in post 72:

Mt 24A (before v29) is about Judea in the 1st century.

Regarding "Judea" (Matthew 24:16), note that there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today, and they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

 

[intojoy]

to Intojoy #62,
you've taken a step toward practicality: there is no symbol at all, except the normal cycle of the tree when leaves appear.

The problem is you are not free from the obsession here to make just about everything Jesus says (unless its obviously about adultery or tithing) to have some kind of rapturized-chronologized-trib-planning meaning. It does not. All this comes from the whole modern scene which cut off from historic meaning. Have a look at the treatment of Luke on the DofJ thread, and you may see what I mean.

Where is your reading of the context here? The disciples asked 3 specific questions that Yeshua answers. The pre trib rapture has nothing to do with the answer. Yeshua answers with the illustration of summer harvest timing. What signals the coming harvest? - The budding trees, what triggers the second coming? - The preceding context of the abomination of desolation which according to Daniel is the anti Christ. The disciples didn't ask if He comes before the trib.

Question one - when will these things be?
Question two - what will be the sign of your coming?
Question three - what will be the sign of the end of the world/age?

A lot of people are fixated on the timing of the rapture. I'm not one of them, I'm fully convinced in the position I believe to be scriptural. I won't take time debating it because its not that critical to ones spirituality. Those who want to go back and forth on the rapture are free to do so but perhaps the reason they keep on debating it is because they're not sure themselves. There are deeper issues of eschatology that could be discussed like the fact that Jesus will not return until the Jews ask Him to.

 

[intojoy]

hey bro, did i hear you right? not to criticize but to remind you cuz I know that you should know that God is Spirit and we must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth but this shouldnt be overlooked or misinterpreted, please take note that Gods people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

my point is that we cannot just merely assume that all will be well without taking any note of the seasons. should we abandon all hope in knowing when He is about to come? We are told to look up, not down or horizontal. you have the horizontal mindset that says, just be happy and don't look behind you to see what is about to come, He comes quickly and suddenly like a unexpected thief in the night and while we are asleep but all virgins awaken at His coming and He hasnt made His appearance just yet.

what are you looking for my friend? may i ask politely and respectfully?

I'm looking to interpret the parable of the fig tree.

 

[intojoy]

Consider the perplexity of the disciples with the prophecy of the Messiah. When they arrived at the Mount of Olives, the prophecy raised three questions on the part of four of His disciples. The questions are recorded in Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:3-4; and Luke 21:7. The Matthew account reads as follows: And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the world? The Luke account reads: And they asked him, saying, Teacher, when therefore shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when these things are about to come to pass? Altogether, three questions were asked which, at the same time, included requests for three signs. The first question in the Matthew passage was, "Tell us, when shall these things be?" These things refer to the destruction of the Temple that He had prophesied in the previous two verses. In the Luke passage, this first question is phrased as, "Master, but when] shall these things be?" and what shall be the sign when these things are about to come to pass? In other words, the first question was: When will the Temple be destroyed, and what will be the sign that this is about to take place? The second question was, "What shall be the sign of your coming?" This question does not concern the Rapture of the Church because the Rapture is imminent and can happen at any moment, having no warning sign preceding it. However, the Second Coming will be preceded by a sign, and the disciples asked what the sign would be. The third question was, "What shall be the sign of the end of the world?" The Greek word translated world actually means "age." They asked for a third sign, and that was, "What will be the sign that the end of this age has begun?" In rabbinic theology of that day, the rabbis spoke of two ages: "this age," meaning the age in which we now live, and "the age to come," meaning the Messianic Age. So the question is, "What is the sign that the last days of this age have begun and will lead to the Messianic Age?" Altogether, then, there were three questions in which the disciples asked for three signs to watch for. Yeshua answered these questions, but not in the same order as they were asked. Nor are all three answers found in all three accounts.

 

[intojoy]

Consider the perplexity of the disciples with the prophecy of the Messiah. When they arrived at the Mount of Olives, the prophecy raised three questions on the part of four of His disciples. The questions are recorded in Matthew 24:3; Mark 13:3-4; and Luke 21:7. The Matthew account reads as follows: And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the world? The Luke account reads: And they asked him, saying, Teacher, when therefore shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when these things are about to come to pass? Altogether, three questions were asked which, at the same time, included requests for three signs. The first question in the Matthew passage was, "Tell us, when shall these things be?" These things refer to the destruction of the Temple that He had prophesied in the previous two verses. In the Luke passage, this first question is phrased as, "Master, but when] shall these things be?" and what shall be the sign when these things are about to come to pass? In other words, the first question was: When will the Temple be destroyed, and what will be the sign that this is about to take place? The second question was, "What shall be the sign of your coming?" This question does not concern the Rapture of the Church because the Rapture is imminent and can happen at any moment, having no warning sign preceding it. However, the Second Coming will be preceded by a sign, and the disciples asked what the sign would be. The third question was, "What shall be the sign of the end of the world?" The Greek word translated world actually means "age." They asked for a third sign, and that was, "What will be the sign that the end of this age has begun?" In rabbinic theology of that day, the rabbis spoke of two ages: "this age," meaning the age in which we now live, and "the age to come," meaning the Messianic Age. So the question is, "What is the sign that the last days of this age have begun and will lead to the Messianic Age?" Altogether, then, there were three questions in which the disciples asked for three signs to watch for. Yeshua answered these questions, but not in the same order as they were asked. Nor are all three answers found in all three accounts.

While Matthew and Mark recorded the answers to the second and third questions, they ignored the answer to the first question. It is Luke who recorded the Messiah's answer to the first question.

A. The General Characteristics of the Church Age Before the Messiah began to answer any of the three questions, He first provided some general characteristics of the Church Age in Matthew 24:4-6; Mark 13:6-7; and Luke 21:8-9.

The Matthew passage reads as follows: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray. And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled: for these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. Rather than immediately answering all three questions, Jesus decided first to give some general characteristics of the Church Age, none of which meant that the end had begun. Jesus wanted to make sure that the disciples would not jump to certain conclusions because of various events, and so He chose to tell them of things that would not mean that the end had begun. There were to be two general characteristics of the Church Age.

1. The Rise of False Messiahs The first general characteristic would be the rise of false messiahs. Historically, Yeshua was the first Person who claimed to be the Messiah. After Him, many came claiming to be the messiah. From the time of Yeshua until about the middle of the 1850s, a great number of Jewish men-from Simon Bar Cochba to rhabbetal Tzvi and Jacob Frank-arose claiming to be the messiah, and indeed led many astray. Gentiles have also claimed the messianic title. But this was to be a general characteristic of the Church Age, and the existence of false messiahs in no way meant that the end had begun.

2. The Existence of Local Wars The second general characteristic of the Church Age would be local wars. Jesus stated that when they heard of wars and rumors of wars, these things also would not be signs of the end. The existence of local wars here and there would in no way indicate that the end had begun. Even if such local wars take place in the Middle East, it is not necessarily prophetically significant.

Concerning both false messiahs and local wars, in verse 6 Yeshua said, " for all these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet." Luke emphasized this point in his passage when he wrote, " for these things must needs come to pass first; but the end is not immediately" (Lk. 21:9). In other words, the rise of false messiahs and long periods of local wars will necessarily come first. But neither of these things would in any way, shape or form be signs that the end had begun.

 

[intojoy]

While Matthew and Mark recorded the answers to the second and third questions, they ignored the answer to the first question. It is Luke who recorded the Messiah's answer to the first question.

A. The General Characteristics of the Church Age Before the Messiah began to answer any of the three questions, He first provided some general characteristics of the Church Age in Matthew 24:4-6; Mark 13:6-7; and Luke 21:8-9.

The Matthew passage reads as follows: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray. And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled: for these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. Rather than immediately answering all three questions, Jesus decided first to give some general characteristics of the Church Age, none of which meant that the end had begun. Jesus wanted to make sure that the disciples would not jump to certain conclusions because of various events, and so He chose to tell them of things that would not mean that the end had begun. There were to be two general characteristics of the Church Age.

1. The Rise of False Messiahs The first general characteristic would be the rise of false messiahs. Historically, Yeshua was the first Person who claimed to be the Messiah. After Him, many came claiming to be the messiah. From the time of Yeshua until about the middle of the 1850s, a great number of Jewish men-from Simon Bar Cochba to rhabbetal Tzvi and Jacob Frank-arose claiming to be the messiah, and indeed led many astray. Gentiles have also claimed the messianic title. But this was to be a general characteristic of the Church Age, and the existence of false messiahs in no way meant that the end had begun.

2. The Existence of Local Wars The second general characteristic of the Church Age would be local wars. Jesus stated that when they heard of wars and rumors of wars, these things also would not be signs of the end. The existence of local wars here and there would in no way indicate that the end had begun. Even if such local wars take place in the Middle East, it is not necessarily prophetically significant.

Concerning both false messiahs and local wars, in verse 6 Yeshua said, " for all these things must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet." Luke emphasized this point in his passage when he wrote, " for these things must needs come to pass first; but the end is not immediately" (Lk. 21:9). In other words, the rise of false messiahs and long periods of local wars will necessarily come first. But neither of these things would in any way, shape or form be signs that the end had begun.

B. The Sign of the End of the Age Having provided for His disciples certain characteristics that would in no way indicate that the end had begun, Jesus next proceeded to answer the third question, which concerned the sign that the end of the age had truly begun. It is recorded in Matthew 24:7-8; Mark 13:8; and Luke 21:10-11.

The Matthew account reads: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places. But all these things are the beginning of travail. According to all three Gospel writers, the sign of the end of the age is said to be when nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. This act will be coupled with famines and earthquakes in various places, and then Yeshua clearly stated that this would be the beginning of travail. The term travail means "birth pang." It refers to the series of birth pangs that a woman undergoes before giving birth to a baby. The prophets pictured the last days as a series of birth pangs before the birth of the new Messianic Age. The beginning of travail, the first birth pang, and the sign that the end of the age has begun is when "nation rises against nation, and kingdom against kingdom."

Jesus had already clearly stated that local wars between a few nations would not indicate that the end had begun. But then He said that when there is "nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom," this will mean the end of the age has begun.

To understand what the idiom "nation against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" means, it is necessary to return to the Jewish origin of these statements. This expression is a Hebrew idiom for a world war. Yeshua's statement here is that when a world war occurs, rather than merely a local war, that world war would signal that the end of the age had begun.

This is quite in keeping with the Jewish writings of this same period. One Jewish source known as the Zohar Chadash states: " At that time wars shall be stirred up in the world. Nation shall be against nation and city against city; much distress shall be renewed against the enemies of the Israelites."

Another Jewish source known as the Bereshit Rabbah states: "If you shall see the kingdoms rising against each other in turn, then give heed and note the footsteps of the Messiah (XLII:4)." The rabbis clearly taught that a world-wide conflict would signal the coming of the Messiah. Yeshua corrected this idea slightly , for He said that when the world war occurs, while it does not signal the coming of the Messiah, it will signal that the end of the age has begun. These birth pangs that Yeshua talked about are the same as the "footsteps" that the rabbis talked about.

From Dr Fruchtenbaum's The Olivet Discourse