the fig tree.. explanation please.

[bibletruth469]

To bible 2- ok you believe in replacement theology; I do not . God will keep physical Israeli people a different group than the gentile nations. The bible shows that through many passages throughout scripture . Yes, we are grafted in, but as a group of people of the church who believe in Christ death burial and reserection . An unbeliever can not be part of the church.however, , he can become part of the church of Jesus Christ once he is born again . God doesn't change one group of people into another .

As for the passage I mentioned in Zechariah , I was making a point that the future war is coming. The nations of the world are lined up. Zechariah 12 shows that it is getting ready to be fulfilled soon. I believe this is a different war than the 2nd coming.

Clarification on my part : we are grafted into the natural branches of god because of Israel's unbelief. Look at Romans 11:15-24.

 

[Interplanner]

Bible2, your comments are worthless. Just ask a question OK? Find out if you have my question or meaning, OK? You are a firehose of verses that are off topic.

A melt down is a nuclear cataclysm. Maybe read something else besides the Bible so you know some contemporary usage.

Gal 5:18 and 22 together show that Paul's mentality was totally different than his previous life in Judaism. He did not do C'ity as a fundamentalist. That's also what he meant when he said he wasnt' under the law, though he was under Christ's law of love. Check a few commentaries on 23's note after the list. 'peri de' would not be a contrasting statement; there is no need to make a contrasting statement. It's not 'there is no law against being full of love, joy, etc.' which doesn't help the paragraph flow, anyway. It is the usual meaning of "about this" or "about that". the result: "you don't make 'laws' (as we know them) about the fruit of the Spirit." The fruit grows because the Spirit is at work through the love of God in the Gospel (2:20).

By saying it that way, he has just closed the argument he opened at 3:3 when he faulted them for continuing (as C'ians!) by human effort. He had to say it that way in case any one listening thought C'ity was just another obsessive disordered system to follow.

The obsessed person is compulsive. The healthy person does things cheerfully, whimsically, not for appearance. He does not do things to earn anything from God, but because God loved him (Lk 7:36-50: he who loves much realized they were forgiven much, which Pharisees don't. They are earners).

Obsession is the flesh, carnal. Loving without trying to earn is Christian spirituality 101.

I do hope some day you get Eph 2-3 in terms of the mess in the middle east. We are not spectators of fireworks. Our task, full of risks, is to help those there understand, like Acts 13 says, that the promises to Abraham are to all because the promise is justification from sins. Everything promised to the fathers is fulfilled in the resurrection. This was a mystery to previous generations who read the OT literally. It is no longer a mystery (Eph 3:6; Col 1, Rom 16).

 

[Interplanner]

BT469,
the genetic Jews are and always will be a different 'ethnos' than any other, but that is not the group God works with anymore. To summarize the NT, a new people who will produce the fruit of God's vineyard is now God's Israel. That much is clear from Mt 22's parable, and repeated many times in Paul. God's Israel believes, no matter what 'ethnos' they are. They believe on the Gospel event for their justification from their sins. Those who believe otherwise are not Israel. This shifts all the OT prophecies as the NT shows over and over (for ex., Acts 15's use of Amos 9). They are not to be read in the previous 'hidden' manner (Eph 3:6).

 

[Catherineanne]

My point: for the NT to speak only to its believers would be the clichesque 'preaching to the choir.'

Don't tell me; tell the Bible.

Check out for yourself what the Bible says it is there for; it is there for the instruction, encouragement and strengthening of believers. People are brought to the Lord by other people through the Church; through testimony and preaching of the Gospel. Once we are brought to the Lord, then the Bible is there to encourage us in our faith. It is NOT addressed to unbelievers. Unbelievers can read it, but it is addressed to us, not them. The warnings are not to unbelievers; the warnings are to believers.

If you think this is wrong, kindly take it up with the Almighty.

 

[Catherineanne]

BT469,
the genetic Jews are and always will be a different 'ethnos' than any other, but that is not the group God works with anymore.

I disagree. God still works with Jewish people through the Torah.

When God makes a covenant with a people he does not change his mind. The covenant with the Jews stands, and they will be judged according to the Laws of Moses.

Christians will be judged differently.

 

[Interplanner]

Hi Cath,
could you then do an interp of the vineyard parable of Mt 22? "It will be given to a people who will produce its fruit."

As for the covenant, we have a new situation in which Christ has stood where the human party should, and has been both the fulfiller of the human side and the recipient of doing so. Those who believe upon him recieve what he recieved. So ACts 13's sermon says the resurrection was not something Christ had to perform; it is the proof that what he had accomplished was accepted by the covenant originator, granting on him all its promises.

 

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 41:

Clarification on my part : we are grafted into the natural branches of god because of Israel's unbelief. Look at Romans 11:15-24.

Just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

Under the New Covenant, only some Jews are cut off from the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24) because of their unbelief in Jesus (Romans 11:20) and his saving, New Covenant Passover death on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 5:7b, Matthew 26:28). Compare the Old Covenant cutting off of only some Israelites from Israel if they failed to keep the Old Covenant Passover (Numbers 9:13).

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 42:

Gal 5:18 and 22 together show that Paul's mentality was totally different than his previous life in Judaism.

Galatians 5:18 includes a condition, an "if". For the Holy Spirit doesn't take away the free will of saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:19). They can wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23).

Interplanner said in post 42:

The fruit grows because the Spirit is at work through the love of God in the Gospel (2:20).

Initial salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5) doesn't automatically produce good works. That's why saved people must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and why it's possible for saved people to wrongly employ their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, and Philippians 2:12b show that Christians themselves must actually labor, along with God.

Interplanner said in post 42:

By saying it that way, he has just closed the argument he opened at 3:3 when he faulted them for continuing (as C'ians!) by human effort.

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:2-3).

Galatians 3:2-3 means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, especially its physical circumcision (Galatians 6:12-13), are works of the flesh, as opposed to spiritual works of faith (Philippians 3:2-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8). For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law isn't of faith (Galatians 3:12). Also, compare Romans 7:5-6.

Galatians 3:2-3 means that works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, works of the flesh/not faith (Galatians 3:12), can't make believers perfect.

Galatians 3:2-3 isn't contradicting the fact that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

*******

Interplanner said in post 43:

the genetic Jews are and always will be a different 'ethnos' than any other, but that is not the group God works with anymore.

That's right insofar as while all genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5), being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Gentiles in the church, along with all Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27).

Interplanner said in post 43:

God's Israel believes, no matter what 'ethnos' they are. They believe on the Gospel event for their justification from their sins. Those who believe otherwise are not Israel.

Some non-believing, genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they're elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the elect, non-believing, genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' second coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: Ephesians 4:4-6) at the second coming (Romans 11:26), when they see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14).

Interplanner said in post 43:

This shifts all the OT prophecies as the NT shows over and over (for ex., Acts 15's use of Amos 9).

Acts 15:14-17 doesn't say or mean that Amos 9:11-12 is "fulfilled", only that the basic principle of the salvation of Gentiles "agrees" (Greek "sumphoneo", G4856) with the idea of Amos 9:11-12, and only as it was understood by the (fallible) individual quoted in Acts 15:14-17. A different way of understanding Amos 9:11-12 is by looking at the original Hebrew: Amos 9:11-12 can mean that the house of David will be restored to power and will possess Edom (present-day southern Jordan) and all other nations. This will be fulfilled during the coming millennium, which won't occur until after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Jesus is of the house of David (Luke 1:69, Matthew 1:1), and so at his return he will restore the house of David to power by sitting on the throne of David (Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:7, Isaiah 16:5) and ruling the earth (Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11).

 

[Catherineanne]

Hi Cath,
could you then do an interp of the vineyard parable of Mt 22? "It will be given to a people who will produce its fruit."

Same as above. The parable is addressed to followers of the Way; Christians. Some of us will produce fruit, some will not.

I think there is confusion when we use modern day interpretations anachronistically. The Lord did not regard himself as Christian in contradistinction to Jewish. He regarded himself as the fulfillment of Judaism. He addressed those around him, and brought them the Good News of the Kingdom of God. Those who had ears to hear heard what he said; they became followers of the Way, but they regarded themselves as Jews; as children of Abraham and direct inheritors of the promises made through him. They followed Jewish law, and they worshipped in the Temple alongside their Jewish brothers and sisters.

Gentile followers of the Way came some time after the death of the Lord, largely through the ministry of St Paul. The division between Christian and Jew did not happen until after the fall of the Temple in AD70. Before then The Way was part of Judaism, which is why discussions about Jewish dietary laws and circumcision took place; as long as converts came from Judaism they were not a problem. These issues arose when significant numbers of gentile converts came to the faith; the question of how Jewish they needed to be was an important one. Paul followed Torah all his life; he followed the law. So did James, brother of the Lord, so did most of the other apostles. But eventually this was revealed as not necessary for new converts; the Holy Spirit made it clear that these matters were not essentials for everyone.

Many comments in the gospels about 'the Jews' reflect this division, and very clearly post-date the fall of the Temple. The Lord himself would not have called those around him 'the Jews'. He would have said, 'we' or 'us'. These comments are there to explain to gentile converts about the culture of the Lord's own day; what 'the Jews' did. Jews themselves would not need to be told.

When the Lord addresses Israel in the New Testament it is in the context of Christianity as part of Judaism. There is no division. The Lord was a Jewish prophet, in the Jewish tradition. He called to all of Israel; some heard, some did not. The message he gave is to those who follow him.

As for the covenant, we have a new situation in which Christ has stood where the human party should, and has been both the fulfiller of the human side and the recipient of doing so. Those who believe upon him recieve what he recieved. So ACts 13's sermon says the resurrection was not something Christ had to perform; it is the proof that what he had accomplished was accepted by the covenant originator, granting on him all its promises.

Christians have a new covenant, and are children of Abraham by adoption in Christ.

But Jews who have never been Christian still follow the Law of Moses, and will be judged accordingly.

To suggest that God has written off the Jews, discarded the covenant with them and exchanged it for an exclusive covenant with Christians only, offers a God that is frankly not worth having; one capable of bigotry.

The Christian God is not a bigot. Some of his followers may be, but God himself is not. His love for the Jews is the same today as it always has been.

 

[Catherineanne]

Just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

Under the New Covenant, only some Jews are cut off from the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24) because of their unbelief in Jesus (Romans 11:20) and his saving, New Covenant Passover death on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 5:7b, Matthew 26:28). Compare the Old Covenant cutting off of only some Israelites from Israel if they failed to keep the Old Covenant Passover (Numbers 9:13).

This is a very good explanation. Many thanks.

 

[bibletruth469]

Just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15) made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

Under the New Covenant, only some Jews are cut off from the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24) because of their unbelief in Jesus (Romans 11:20) and his saving, New Covenant Passover death on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 5:7b, Matthew 26:28). Compare the Old Covenant cutting off of only some Israelites from Israel if they failed to keep the Old Covenant Passover (Numbers 9:13).

Ok, it was confusing what you had said in an earlier post. It seemed like you did believe in replacement theology. However in above response , it seems like you believe that they are separate groups of people. In other words, the Gentiles do not displace Israel , they just partake of the root. Also, once a Jew becomes a Christian believer in our savior, they become part of the church. I didn't follow all the verses you listed, but I think we are saying the same thing!!

 

[Interplanner]

These paragraphs are better than most of your posts, Bible2. In the 1st paragraph, why the reminder that New Covenant salvation is only with Israel? If you mean the nation, it is not. Faith upon the Gospel determines these things now.

Also, that "tree" all through Rom 11 is not "Israel's own." It is God's and meant to produce what He created it for. This may clear up the question of the OP.

 

[Interplanner]

The % of Jews who believe is pretty low. "though the descendants are like the sands of the seashore, only the remnant will be saved." Quite different from B2's "only a few will be cut off." That image should tell us a lot about the OT. The nation did become like the sand of the shore, but not the remnant.

 

[Catherineanne]

The % of Jews who believe is pretty low.

By definition, it must be zero. If they believed in Christ they would not be Jews any more, but Christians. For the followers of the Lord during his lifetime and perhaps up until the fall of the Temple this was not the case, but it certainly is now.

Jew and Christian are now mutually exclusive faiths. We can (and should) respect one another, but we cannot be both. Messianics come closest, in following Jewish traditions and practices while accepting the Lord, but even they are not both; they are Messianic Christians.

 

[Interplanner]

But everyone has both an ethnicity and a faith (even if that faith is atheism). The Christian faith is trans-ethnic. Most ethnicities are not trans-faith because theocracy is so prevalent; it says the two are identical by necessity.

 

[JuJube]

Just a note on trees and fruit.. I am sort of 'fundy, but I think the trees in the Garden of Eden are symbolic as is the fruit, symbols for something else, and various trees and fruit represent different nations and things, like perhaps the pomegranate represents the Ishmaelite's? And the palm tree? And the apple tree the Greeks.
If you study the Genesis account of the Garden, you'll notice that it is not describing any literal fruit.. (off topic).
Jesus talks about good and bad fruit.

wow, I've thought of this also. I do think there are layers of understanding on this, and one that I saw was that the 2 trees in the garden of great importance are: the tree of good and evil, and the tree of life. I thought of them as two family trees...trees of geneology. Which one you pick would be the family in which you will reside.

 

[Catherineanne]

But everyone has both an ethnicity and a faith (even if that faith is atheism). The Christian faith is trans-ethnic. Most ethnicities are not trans-faith because theocracy is so prevalent; it says the two are identical by necessity.

All human beings are mongrels. There are no pedigrees.

Ethnicity is not the same thing as religion, even for Jewish people. It makes no sense to confuse the two.

 

[Interplanner]

Cath,
I am saying the same thing: don't confuse the two. But they do. People fuse race and faith all the time. which is why John 1 had to make the distinctions right off about the person born of God.

Similarly, Paul had to say over and over that God's people, his new Israel, was now not by the ordinary means, but by faith. He spoke to Christians to edify them, but he spoke to those in Judaism, where he came from, to convert and win them to the view of the Gospel. One way to see this is to assemble all his bio material from Phil 3, Gal 1-2, Acts 8, 22, 26 all in one place.

 

[Choose Wisely]

By definition, it must be zero. If they believed in Christ they would not be Jews any more, but Christians. For the followers of the Lord during his lifetime and perhaps up until the fall of the Temple this was not the case, but it certainly is now.

Jew and Christian are now mutually exclusive faiths. We can (and should) respect one another, but we cannot be both. Messianics come closest, in following Jewish traditions and practices while accepting the Lord, but even they are not both; they are Messianic Christians.

After the church is gone pre trib, Israel will be regrafted.

 

[Interplanner]

Cath,
"not be Jews any more"? (I just noticed this in the copy of your post above)
Paul was still a Jew (Rom 11:1) because that is an ethnicity.