The "Fewness of the Saved"

[jamiec]

The OP is referring to a private revelation which is not officially taught by the RCC.

Officially, we do not know how many are in hell. That is up to God and God alone.

Anyone who claims to know how many are finally saved, or not, is a fantasist or a liar.

 

[jamiec]

Do you believe that folks will be saved who have never even heard the name of Jesus Christ and do not have the tiniest inkling of Christianity?

Most definitely.

Why not ? It is lunacy, and worse, to condemn people for the "sin" of never having been able to hear Christ preached. The overwhelming majority of all mankind, for the last 200,000 years at least, would be done for. Is that the act of a Good, Wise, Merciful, & Righteous God ? It sounds more like the behaviour of a demon or a trickster deity.

 

[concretecamper]

Most definitely.

Why not ? It is lunacy, and worse, to condemn people for the "sin" of never having been able to hear Christ preached. The overwhelming majority of all mankind, for the last 200,000 years at least, would be done for. Is that the act of a Good, Wise, Merciful, & Righteous God ? It sounds more like the behaviour of a demon or a trickster deity.

Were the Assyrians or Babylonians or the Egyptians saved under the Old Covenant?

 

[Billy Evmur]

Hello brothers and sisters in our Lord!

I have had a lot weighing on my mind over the past few days regarding the Catholic Doctrine of "The Fewness of the Saved". I am a devout Roman Catholic and I had never heard of this doctrine before. I am used to having always been taught mercy and forgiveness not the pretty much IMPOSSIBLE chance of reaching Heaven. In this doctrine, backed by many Saints, very, VERY few Christians who think they are saved go to Heaven and most go to Hell. In this doctrine, according to Saint Leonard Of Port Maurice, on the hour of his death only two people out of 33.000 went to heaven and 3 out of 33,000 went to Purgatory. That means that MANY Christians who really followed and loved The Lord are in Hell. Only a few that are "Chosen By God" make it to Purgatory or Heaven. That is severely frightening to me because that would mean Heaven is basically reserved for the chosen Saints and that is about it. I am losing hope since the thought of Heaven and a love for our beautiful Lord are what get me through my days. I am far from perfect, and I fear perfection is what it takes. What do you all think?

Here is some information about this doctrine: The Fewness Of The Saved

A Roman Catholic Priest's sermon this doctrine:

You have to balance this word "few" with the word "MANY" I like that word many. John saw them in the Apocalypse a great multitude which no man could number. They can number the Chinese and India. The whole world more or less. But John says the redeemed in heaven were impossible to number.

Nah I doesn't believe just a few straggly sheeps are going to make it.


But let me tell you, the Catholics are to blame [ ] I am raised a devout Catholic but am now Protestant.

They took away the Millennium, in the 4th century and substituted it with Amillennialism. This completely alters doctrines concerning the end times and eternal destiny. If you believe the Millennium, the 1, 000 year reign of Christ on earth then you must be believe in the Rapture.

If you believe the Rapture followed by the 1, 000 years then it is IMPOSSIBLE that the sheep shown in Matthew 25 who do receive a reward could be the church. The church has reigning with Christ for 1, 000 years. THEREFORE ...

Therefore there is to be a much wider mercy than is commonly believed by evangelicals [Catholic or Protestant] and who said the goat are in an overwhelming majority?

Take heart friend there are many mansions in the Father's house and these shall be full.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Were the Assyrians or Babylonians or the Egyptians saved under the Old Covenant?

actually many were

 

[The Liturgist]

But let me tell you, the Catholics are to blame [ ] I am raised a devout Catholic but am now Protestant.

I really wish people would stop blaming everything on Roman Catholicism. While I am not Roman Catholic and have never been Roman Catholic, the Catholic Church, even under the very problematic leadership of Pope Francis, still gets much more right than it gets wrong, and it avoids several errors which have become extremely common in Protestantism, for example, Catholicism continues to reject the Nestorian and Iconoclast errors which are so often found in a co-morbid configuration, particularly in the Reformed churches. The Lutherans, on the other hand, do an extremely good job of countering Nestorianism and Iconoclasm; I regard as very excellent in this regard the work of the Lutherans and the Oriental Orthodox, which have an interesting historical connection, in that the existence of the Ethiopian Orthodox church, which is one of the ancient Oriental Orthodox churches that have never been subject to the Pope of Rome, made Martin Luther realize that the doctrine of Papal Supremacy was untenable and inconsistent with the beliefs of the early church. Likewise, John Wesley had a close connection with the Eastern Orthodox, as have many other Anglicans. So in a sense one can regard the Lutherans, specifically the dogmatically orthodox Lutherans known as Evangelical Catholics, which one finds in Lutheran churches like the LCMS and its Canadian counterpart, the LCC, of which my dear friend @MarkRohfrietsch is a member, as doing a superb job among Protestants in terms of preserving the Patristic faith, which rejects Nestorianism and Iconoclasm, as well as Antidicomarianism and a few other errors which one finds in some Protestant and Restorationist churches.

Additionally, the LCMS, LCC and other Lutheran churches in communion with them (such as the Latvian and Lithuanian Lutheran churches) and the smaller North American denomination known as the AALC, have been stalwart in resisting capitulation on the issue of human sexuality, which tragically happened over the weekend to the church I was baptized in, the UMC (and I was educated in an LCMS parochial school).

 

[Billy Evmur]

I really wish people would stop blaming everything on Roman Catholicism. While I am not Roman Catholic and have never been Roman Catholic, the Catholic Church, even under the very problematic leadership of Pope Francis, still gets much more right than it gets wrong, and it avoids several errors which have become extremely common in Protestantism, for example, Catholicism continues to reject the Nestorian and Iconoclast errors which are so often found in a co-morbid configuration, particularly in the Reformed churches. The Lutherans, on the other hand, do an extremely good job of countering Nestorianism and Iconoclasm; I regard as very excellent in this regard the work of the Lutherans and the Oriental Orthodox, which have an interesting historical connection, in that the existence of the Ethiopian Orthodox church, which is one of the ancient Oriental Orthodox churches that have never been subject to the Pope of Rome, made Martin Luther realize that the doctrine of Papal Supremacy was untenable and inconsistent with the beliefs of the early church. Likewise, John Wesley had a close connection with the Eastern Orthodox, as have many other Anglicans. So in a sense one can regard the Lutherans, specifically the dogmatically orthodox Lutherans known as Evangelical Catholics, which one finds in Lutheran churches like the LCMS and its Canadian counterpart, the LCC, of which my dear friend @MarkRohfrietsch is a member, as doing a superb job among Protestants in terms of preserving the Patristic faith, which rejects Nestorianism and Iconoclasm, as well as Antidicomarianism and a few other errors which one finds in some Protestant and Restorationist churches.

Additionally, the LCMS, LCC and other Lutheran churches in communion with them (such as the Latvian and Lithuanian Lutheran churches) and the smaller North American denomination known as the AALC, have been stalwart in resisting capitulation on the issue of human sexuality, which tragically happened over the weekend to the church I was baptized in, the UMC (and I was educated in an LCMS parochial school).

all about church ... The temple the temple the temple .... some folks believe that the errors of Catholicism crept in bye and bye, over many centuries. I say it is a usurpation from the start founded upon the doctrines of Ignatius, a take over by the bishops creating a division between the clergy and the laity which does not exist in scripture. Replacing the Lord Jesus as Head of the church and the Holy Ghost as teacher.

That's what I think.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Guys, protestants, catholics, orthodox... is there a church that exists that follow the words of the bible without addind or warping the meaning? I am still looking but can find none it it just me that is crazy or does it really exist today?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Guys, protestants, catholics, orthodox... is there a church that exists that follow the words of the bible without addind or warping the meaning? I am still looking but can find none it it just me that is crazy or does it really exist today?

Don't look to people to define their denomination go to their official church website and look at the statements of beliefs and see what matches closest with the bible. Ask God to help guide you to the right church.

There are many people who claim they belong to a denomination but don't teach anything remotely to what that denomination believes. Go straight to the source of the Statements of Beliefs and pray to Jesus for guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's important to have a church family.

God promises that He has a church, but it's a remnant and lists their characteristics. Rev 12:17KJV

God bless.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Don't look to people to define their denomination go to their official church website and look at the statements of beliefs and see what matches closest with the bible. Ask God to help guide you to the right church.

There are many people who claim they belong to a denomination but don't teach anything remotely to what that denomination believes. Go straight to the source of the Statements of Beliefs and pray to Jesus for guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's important to have a church family.

God promises that He has a church, but its a remnant. Rev 12:17KJV

God bless.

Curiously, it is not your denomination. That is the bad news. The worse news is that many other denominations exhibit other forms of extrabiblical and nonbiblical belief. I am at the point where there is no denomination which aligns with my personal understanding of scripture. That means that each and every denomination cannot fall into the category of being God's remnant - or, possibly, that I am not infallible and unerring in my understanding of scripture. In any event, denominations do fall along on a spectrum of biblical beliefs and practices. As The Liturgist just noted, the United Methodist Church just confirmed its long-developing position regarding homosexual behavior. For some, that is a make-or-break deal. The result is that approximately one-quarter of UMC churches in the U. S. have departed from that denomination and have aligned with the International Methodist Church.

 

[The Liturgist]

all about church ... The temple the temple the temple .... some folks believe that the errors of Catholicism crept in bye and bye, over many centuries. I say it is a usurpation from the start founded upon the doctrines of Ignatius, a take over by the bishops creating a division between the clergy and the laity which does not exist in scripture. Replacing the Lord Jesus as Head of the church and the Holy Ghost as teacher.

That's what I think.

Well the problem with that argument is that it simply is unsupported by the facts of history, and also directly contradicts Matthew 16:18. Clericalism, that is to say, a superior attitude by presbyters and bishops, was chiefly a problem in the Western church, and not the Eastern church, where the laity were able to, among other things, reject what would have otherwise been an ecumenical council that would have put the Eastern Orthodox church under the control of the Pope. The majority of bishops wanted it, but the laity of the Byzantine Empire, and one bishop, St. Mark of Ephesus, said this was unacceptable, knowing full well that the lack of the military assistance that the West had offered in an attempt to elicit their agreement would mean their subjugation by the Ottoman Empire, the horrors of Turkocratia, yet they chose to retain the purity of the faith.

So, just to review, your argument fails spectacularly for these reasons, aside from being grossly offensive to the many millions of Christians such as the persecuted Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox who have suffered so much martyrdom under Islam, and who in doing so are inspired by the example of St. Ignatius the Martyr, who was himself following in the examples of the Holy Apostles Peter, Paul, and James the Great, the first Apostle to be martyred, and St. Stephen the Illustrious Protomartyr (who was not an Apostle but one of the Seven Deacons ordained in Acts):

• It suggests that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church, which our Lord promised would not occur.
• Nowhere did St. Ignatius claim to be the Head of the Church or appropriate to himself any powers that had not previously been exercised by the Holy Apostles; indeed; the bishops have
• It suggests the existence of clericalism as a continual problem throughout the entire church since the time of St. Ignatius, which is absolutely not the case; clericalism rather emerged in the late first millennium in the Roman church as scholastic theology emerged and the idea of Papal Supremacy was born, which would cause the Great Schism in 1054.
• It would suggest that the Ecumenical Councils which defined the Nicene Creed in order to protect the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation were invalid.
• Most importantly, it also invalidates the entire New Testament canon of Scripture, since this was developed by the bishops, with the current canon having been first promulgated by St. Athanasius of Alexandria in his 39th Paschal Encyclical, and shortly thereafter adopted by the church in Rome, and then by the churches in Constantinople, Jerusalem and Antioch.

This is why a thorough knowledge of the history of the Christian faith, particularly that of the Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Churches, which most Western Christians are unaware of, in many cases even unaware of the existence of some of these churches (for example, probably ost Western Christians who know about the Eastern Orthodox do not know about the Oriental Orthodox, and even fewer know about the Assyrian Church of the East), and of the ecumenical councils, and of the martyrdoms and persecutions.

This also underscores the importance of logic and reason in studying the history of the church, rather than relying on an emotional approach. Many ex-Catholic converts to Protestantism, as a result of the unpleasantness or overbearing disposition they may have experienced within the Roman Catholic church from the very many RCC bishops I think do act in a manner that could be considered clericalist, for example Cardinal Cupich or Pope Francis, might feel inclined to rail against ecclesiastical authority as a whole, which is a mistake. We are not required to adhere to the dictates of bishops, such as those of the United Methodist Church who last weekend decided to discard Scripture and embrace sexual perversion, when they engage in such gross errors, but at the same time where legitimate church authority exists we should follow it, that is to say, the right believing and right-teaching pastors one finds within the traditional Protestant and Orthodox churches and within parts of the Roman Catholic Church as well, for example, in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church in Kazakhstan, which rejected Fiducia Supplicans as incompatible with the faith.

 

[The Liturgist]

Curiously, it is not your denomination. That is the bad news. The worse news is that many other denominations exhibit other forms of extrabiblical and nonbiblical belief. I am at the point where there is no denomination which aligns with my personal understanding of scripture. That means that each and every denomination cannot fall into the category of being God's remnant - or, possibly, that I am not infallible and unerring in my understanding of scripture. In any event, denominations do fall along on a spectrum of biblical beliefs and practices. As The Liturgist just noted, the United Methodist Church just confirmed its long-developing position regarding homosexual behavior. For some, that is a make-or-break deal. The result is that approximately one-quarter of UMC churches in the U. S. have departed from that denomination and have aligned with the International Methodist Church.

I am sure I could actually find a denomination and/or a local church for you that does agree with your beliefs.

This being said, and to be clear, I am by no means accusing you of contumacy, but rather making the point for the benefit of other members, that the fact is that we cannot expect the church to conform to our own belief system, but rather vice versa, in that what we must endeavor to do is to follow Christ and in many cases this requires us to change our minds (which is the actual meaning of the word metanoia) about certain things.

But in saying that, I want to be clear @bbbbbbb that I am not by any means accusing you of that; I value you as a friend, and the frustration you are experiencing is that of many Western Christians I know who feel that the church has left them, and indeed I myself would be in that position were it not for the fact that since my adolescence, I had a fascination with the Christians of the Middle East, and also within my immediate nuclear family, specifically my mother and I always have shared a belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and my mother, my father and myself had substantial interest in Orthodox Christianity, so after a brief period of time in the Episcopal Church while my friend Fr. Steve, the last conservative priest in his diocese, spent his last year in the ministry, I knew precisely where I had to go. But not everyone has been blessed by this, and this is the worst aspect of the usurpation not only of the traditional mainline churches by liberal theologians, but of the usurpation of the traditional faith in many other denominations, for example, the tragedy that befell Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church after the repose of Dr. James Kennedy, memory eternal.

That being said, simply owing to my knowledge of denominations and local churches, I might well know of one that does agree at least to an acceptable level with your beliefs, and I would be happy to assist you with that. I can think of several Reformed denominations that are relatively small but one of which I think likely agrees with your case. Then again, it is quite possible you have yourself a knowledge of all of these, since you are a fellow intellectual, like me, an erudite man of learning and culture, as is evinced by our shared interest in architecture, which i do hope we can spend some more time discussing, because it is such a relief finding someone who is really interested in that. Indeed I nearly went into architecture as a profession, until I got to know some architects and discovered the particularly unpleasant political and economic realities that plague that particular area of design, so if one is interested in creative work in business, architecture can be one of the most frustrating fields to go into.

 

[The Liturgist]

Guys, protestants, catholics, orthodox... is there a church that exists that follow the words of the bible without addind or warping the meaning? I am still looking but can find none it it just me that is crazy or does it really exist today?

Yes, there are such churches.

It is my considered opinion* , which is to say having carefully studied scripture and ecclesiastical history, that the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East (and the smaller Ancient Church of the East) and traditional liturgical Protestants, such as the Continuing Anglicans and Evangelical Catholic Lutherans in the United States, as well as some parts of the Roman Catholic Church, for example, the Traditional Latin Mass communities, follow the doctrines of scripture to an acceptable level. Obviously I particularly like Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, but I would also be very comfortable within Continuing Anglicanism and the Assyrian Church of the East, and I greatly like High Church Lutheranism, such as the LCMS, and the Traditional Latin Mass communities and the Eastern Catholic churches.

*This is a type of opinion formed through careful thought, weighing all available evidence and reasoning. A considered opinion is not just based on immediate feelings or limited knowledge; instead, it's the result of deliberate reflection and informed analysis. This often involves considering various viewpoints and the underlying facts before arriving at a conclusion.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Yes, there are such churches.

It is my considered opinion* , which is to say having carefully studied scripture and ecclesiastical history, that the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East (and the smaller Ancient Church of the East) and traditional liturgical Protestants, such as the Continuing Anglicans and Evangelical Catholic Lutherans in the United States, as well as some parts of the Roman Catholic Church, for example, the Traditional Latin Mass communities, follow the doctrines of scripture to an acceptable level. Obviously I particularly like Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, but I would also be very comfortable within Continuing Anglicanism and the Assyrian Church of the East, and I greatly like High Church Lutheranism, such as the LCMS, and the Traditional Latin Mass communities and the Eastern Catholic churches.

*This is a type of opinion formed through careful thought, weighing all available evidence and reasoning. A considered opinion is not just based on immediate feelings or limited knowledge; instnead, it's the result of deliberate reflection and informed analysis. This often involves considering various viewpoints and the underlying facts before arriving at a conclusion.

thank you I will look into these churches then.

 

[The Liturgist]

thank you I will look into these churches then.

You might find things that you find disagreeable in them; I presented a considered opinion based on my research, which I also had to rely on personally when the mainline Protestant denominations I was affiliated with (the UCC and the UMC and the Episcopal Church) alienated me through their embrace of sexual immorality. It took me a bit of time to adapt to the ramifications of what I found out. I would urge you to approach it with an open mind.


I would note however that I have presented you with options that include Orthodox churches, Protestant churches and parts of the Roman Catholic church that are, again, in my considered opinion, more faithful to the apostolic kerygma. And I am willing to explain specifically why in each case. I am also willing to help you find a different denomination if there is something in all of the churches I have mentioned you find unacceptable, although I think such an outcome unlikely. So please send me a PM if you have any questions.

God bless you!

 

[ViaCrucis]

I really wish people would stop blaming everything on Roman Catholicism.

Undoing a couple hundred years of Radical Protestant historical revisionism and propaganda isn't going to be easy. It's not just religious in nature, anti-Catholicism also has a socio-political component in the English-speaking world, especially in the US, and which has been exported through some forms of missionary activity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Billy Evmur]

Well the problem with that argument is that it simply is unsupported by the facts of history, and also directly contradicts Matthew 16:18. Clericalism, that is to say, a superior attitude by presbyters and bishops, was chiefly a problem in the Western church, and not the Eastern church, where the laity were able to, among other things, reject what would have otherwise been an ecumenical council that would have put the Eastern Orthodox church under the control of the Pope. The majority of bishops wanted it, but the laity of the Byzantine Empire, and one bishop, St. Mark of Ephesus, said this was unacceptable, knowing full well that the lack of the military assistance that the West had offered in an attempt to elicit their agreement would mean their subjugation by the Ottoman Empire, the horrors of Turkocratia, yet they chose to retain the purity of the faith.

So, just to review, your argument fails spectacularly for these reasons, aside from being grossly offensive to the many millions of Christians such as the persecuted Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox who have suffered so much martyrdom under Islam, and who in doing so are inspired by the example of St. Ignatius the Martyr, who was himself following in the examples of the Holy Apostles Peter, Paul, and James the Great, the first Apostle to be martyred, and St. Stephen the Illustrious Protomartyr (who was not an Apostle but one of the Seven Deacons ordained in Acts):

• It suggests that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church, which our Lord promised would not occur.
• Nowhere did St. Ignatius claim to be the Head of the Church or appropriate to himself any powers that had not previously been exercised by the Holy Apostles; indeed; the bishops have
• It suggests the existence of clericalism as a continual problem throughout the entire church since the time of St. Ignatius, which is absolutely not the case; clericalism rather emerged in the late first millennium in the Roman church as scholastic theology emerged and the idea of Papal Supremacy was born, which would cause the Great Schism in 1054.
• It would suggest that the Ecumenical Councils which defined the Nicene Creed in order to protect the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation were invalid.
• Most importantly, it also invalidates the entire New Testament canon of Scripture, since this was developed by the bishops, with the current canon having been first promulgated by St. Athanasius of Alexandria in his 39th Paschal Encyclical, and shortly thereafter adopted by the church in Rome, and then by the churches in Constantinople, Jerusalem and Antioch.

This is why a thorough knowledge of the history of the Christian faith, particularly that of the Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Churches, which most Western Christians are unaware of, in many cases even unaware of the existence of some of these churches (for example, probably ost Western Christians who know about the Eastern Orthodox do not know about the Oriental Orthodox, and even fewer know about the Assyrian Church of the East), and of the ecumenical councils, and of the martyrdoms and persecutions.

This also underscores the importance of logic and reason in studying the history of the church, rather than relying on an emotional approach. Many ex-Catholic converts to Protestantism, as a result of the unpleasantness or overbearing disposition they may have experienced within the Roman Catholic church from the very many RCC bishops I think do act in a manner that could be considered clericalist, for example Cardinal Cupich or Pope Francis, might feel inclined to rail against ecclesiastical authority as a whole, which is a mistake. We are not required to adhere to the dictates of bishops, such as those of the United Methodist Church who last weekend decided to discard Scripture and embrace sexual perversion, when they engage in such gross errors, but at the same time where legitimate church authority exists we should follow it, that is to say, the right believing and right-teaching pastors one finds within the traditional Protestant and Orthodox churches and within parts of the Roman Catholic Church as well, for example, in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church in Kazakhstan, which rejected Fiducia Supplicans as incompatible with the faith.

It's nice to read history, it doesn't look anything like the history of the primitive church as related in the Acts of the Apostles.

There is all simple believing and fellowship. And there we see and hear the Holy Spirit .... long since absent from the Catholic church and her sisters.

That does not mean that the Holy Spirit has forsaken the humble and the meek believers with that conglomeration.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Guys, protestants, catholics, orthodox... is there a church that exists that follow the words of the bible without addind or warping the meaning? I am still looking but can find none it it just me that is crazy or does it really exist today?

Christians are all like you, imperfect and prone to mistakes. If we stick together we can iron out the inconsistencies ... we need each other.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Don't look to people to define their denomination go to their official church website and look at the statements of beliefs and see what matches closest with the bible. Ask God to help guide you to the right church.

There are many people who claim they belong to a denomination but don't teach anything remotely to what that denomination believes. Go straight to the source of the Statements of Beliefs and pray to Jesus for guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's important to have a church family.

God promises that He has a church, but it's a remnant and lists their characteristics. Rev 12:17KJV

God bless.

I did ask but no answer yet.... thanks for the info, ill have a peek at other denominations it will help me a bit in understanding people's background.. but no worries I will not join just to join...

Blessings bro,

 

[The Liturgist]

Undoing a couple hundred years of Radical Protestant historical revisionism and propaganda isn't going to be easy. It's not just religious in nature, anti-Catholicism also has a socio-political component in the English-speaking world, especially in the US, and which has been exported through some forms of missionary activity.

-CryptoLutheran

Indeed, and I feel like, to a large extent, anti-Catholicism is not just an opposition to the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church, which frankly at times I feel is warranted, regarding certain issues; I do have complaints with, for example, Pope Francis, and certain other left-wing Popes, and I also disagree with the RCC on the issue of Papal Supremacu, but rather amounts to a contempt for the Roman Catholics.

And what is more, it is not just a contempt for Roman Catholics, but extends to the good aspects of Roman Catholicism, and thus, anti-Catholic prejudice is, I would argue, the basis for anti-Lutheran, anti-Anglo Catholic and anti-Orthodox prejudice. It is the reason why high church priests in the Church of England who were working alongside the Salvation Army to aid the poor in South London were thrown into prison for wearing chasubles. It is the reason why Marshal Field, owner of the department store, who had a phobia of German American immigrants, encouraged the violent suppression of protests by German American workers in Chicago. And it is the basis for such unpleasant sentiments as one finds, for example, in a notorious article from the psuedo-denomination 9 Marks which basically asserts that the Catholics and Orthodox of the Middle East brought the Islamic persecution they have been enduring since the seventh century onto themselves as a result of their alcoholism and pornography-viewing idolatry (!): 9 Marks’ Deeply Disturbing Remarks Aimed at Roman Catholics and InterVarsity | The Wartburg Watch 2024

Wartburg Watch by the way is a lovely website one of whose owners is a Lutheran, and they do a very good job advocating against abuses in terms of pastoral care, which is also an issue I care about quite a lot, and is also something I admire our friend @Paidiske for, for her zero-tolerance policy towards pastoral malpractice. Actually I think @Paidiske if you ever are blessed with more time, you ought to meet those ladies with the Wartburg Watch as they agree with your core positions and like you are deeply concerned about the mistreatment of people in churches, which is also an area of concern to me.

It is also ironic by the way given the raising of the issue of clericalism in this thread to note that clericalism of late has frequently occurred in a severe and noxious form in those megachurches with “celebrity pastors” who abuse their laity for a time until they are stopped, people such as Mark Driscoll. I am opposed to the idea of celebrity pastors such as Driscoll, Osteen, etc. I feel that our Lord made an important point in stressing that whoever wants to lead, must be the servant of all. Or as St. John the Baptist put it, “I must decrease so that He may increase.”