The "Fewness of the Saved"

[The Liturgist]

It's nice to read history, it doesn't look anything like the history of the primitive church as related in the Acts of the Apostles.

The reason why you have the Acts of the Apostles in your New Testament, and not some alternative falsehood such as the Acts of Thomas or the Acts of Andrew, is because of the Fathers of the Early Church, including St. Ignatius the Martyr, preserving a canonical tradition of which books were of apostolic origin, in opposition to various sects which sought to introduce corrupt materials into the New Testament, such as the “Gospel of Judas”, the “Gospel of Mary”, the Tripartite Tractate, the Pistis Sophia, and other heretical texts. What kept those out, and what kept the good stuff in, was the early church. That is how we are able to read the Acts of the Apostles.

And indeed it was St. Athanasius of Alexandria who was responsible for the final edit to the canon of the New Testament, that affirmed the inclusion of all twenty seven books we are used to, including Revelation, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John and Jude, and certain other disputed books, which were omitted by several churches just a few years before (for example, they were not included in the original edition of the Peshitta, the otherwise excellent fourth century Syriac language translation of the Bible, but were added in by the Syriac Orthodox later, having been translated by St. Thomas of Harqel).


And it was also St. Athanasius of Alexandria who upheld the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation against the false teachings of Arius, who had the support of Emperor Constantius, the heir to St. Constantine, and most of his successors through the reign of Emperor Valens, so in between the reign of Emperor St. Constantine and Emperor St. Theodosius, except for a brief period of neo-Platonism under Julian the Apostate, the state religion of the Roman Empire was Arianism rather than Christianity.

There is all simple believing and fellowship. And there we see and hear the Holy Spirit ....

Such simple believing and fellowship is not absent from Roman Catholicism. Indeed I would argue that Roman Catholics from the are particularly good at it. I have generally found Roman Catholic churches to be quite loving, even those which are not using an optimal form of the liturgy.

long since absent from the Catholic church and her sisters.

That’s a totally false and baseless accusation against both the Roman Catholic Church and other churches such as the Orthodox. I have personally witnessed miraculous healings connected to the sacraments in these churches. I have personally seen evidence of the Holy Spirit at work in those denominations.

That does not mean that the Holy Spirit has forsaken the humble and the meek believers with that conglomeration.

These include the clergy, in the Orthodox Church, who among other things are required to beg their congregations forgiveness and also declare themselves to be chief among sinners during the course of a typical liturgy. There is no shortage of meekness or humility. And they aren’t paid much, if anything, in contrast to the very large salaries that some megachurch pastors of the “Prosperity Gospel” are able to pull.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I am sure I could actually find a denomination and/or a local church for you that does agree with your beliefs.

<Snip>

I'm not sure that I could: When people accept only personal interpretation of scripture as their theological foundation; they will wonder about trying to find a Church made in their immage.; or will try to remake it into their imagined perfect Church.

At least in confessional Lutheranism, you can count on what is being taught being Biblical Law and Gospel. Tradition and traditional practices and Liturgy? Also taken from the Bible... mostly. Those things that are not are discarded if they don't comply with Scripture or are forbidden by Scripture; rather, if they point to Jesus Christ and His once and for all sacrifice for all mankind, they can be, and are retained.

In my previous profession as a funeral director, I had the opertunity to serve people of many Churches and Faith Groups. It is this exposure that has made me more resolute and steadfastly Confessionally Lutheran. While not in fellowship, I do consider the EO, OO, Catholic (both Roman and Eastern) and Continuing Anglicans to be my spiritual brothers and sisters in Christ.

Most protestant and reformed Churches, for me, seem to have departed from Scripture. Not for Scriptures sake, but to spite those who retain orthodox theology and orthodox practices; as is often the case. It can be born out of dispising and hatred (both fine examples of Christian love, as found in Scripture) BTW, that was Sarcasm for those who don't get it.

Historically, there are also Protestant Churches that are, or have became "cults of personality". These are easily identified as their membershhip waxes and wains with the coming and going of Clergy. In the traditional Churches that I named above, the Pastor, Priest, Celebrant is opperating "in persona Christi"; The words are Christ's; the Sacraments are administered on Christ's behalf. Such is why we retain vestments; they cover the man and point to Christ: Who's front and center in my Church... when you look at Pastor's vestments? Our Lord and savior Jesus the Christ; there is a lot of other Christian Symbolism going on here:

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It's nice to read history, it doesn't look anything like the history of the primitive church as related in the Acts of the Apostles.

There is all simple believing and fellowship. And there we see and hear the Holy Spirit .... long since absent from the Catholic church and her sisters.

That does not mean that the Holy Spirit has forsaken the humble and the meek believers with that conglomeration.

The primitive Church under the persecution for the first centuries was the tiny little mustard seed spoken of in Scripture; it grew and blossomed and continues to yeild fruit from the branches and vines that are still growing on the huge tree that little seed grew into.

This history of the early Church is not dead; it is living like our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm not sure that I could: When people accept only personal interpretation of scripture as their theological foundation; they will wonder about trying to find a Church made in their immage.; or will try to remake it into their imagined perfect Church.

Naturally I agree, but I don’t think our friend @bbbbbbb was saying that, but rather was making the point about how changes in the mainline churches have left him alienated. But I did address the point you are raising in my post, because I feel it is very important that we conform ourselves to the Apostolic kerygma, rather than trying to conform the Apostolic kerygma to us. And there has been a schismatic tendency within some branches of Protestantism and Restorationism and also among the Old Calendarists who separated from the canonical Eastern Orthodox churches in a schism, and to some extent, this tendency feels like it is the result of people feeling that schism is fine if it results in a church that precisely suits their own beliefs. We also see this tendency baked into the structure of certain denominations that are highly Pietistic or Latitudinarian to the point where they permit actual variations in faith between different parishes, although we now also have the phenomenon of isolated traditional parishes in some of the mainline Protestant denominations, for example, St. John’s Episcopal Church in Detroit, which I was absolutely flabbergasted to learn was not a Continuing Anglican church, and this latter case is somewhat different.

In studying schisms, it is not always the case that the larger body is the right one and the smaller group is in the wrong. In the case pf one such denomination, which was recently unethically hijacked by defiant bishops who despised the decision to retain Scriptural teaching concerning human sexuality adopted in 2018 and who connived to seize power, which they now have done, those churches forced to leave, and which, to add insult to injury, were financially penalized as part of the process of leaving, cannot be regarded as schismatic.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Indeed, and I feel like, to a large extent, anti-Catholicism is not just an opposition to the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church, which frankly at times I feel is warranted, regarding certain issues; I do have complaints with, for example, Pope Francis, and certain other left-wing Popes, and I also disagree with the RCC on the issue of Papal Supremacu, but rather amounts to a contempt for the Roman Catholics.

And what is more, it is not just a contempt for Roman Catholics, but extends to the good aspects of Roman Catholicism, and thus, anti-Catholic prejudice is, I would argue, the basis for anti-Lutheran, anti-Anglo Catholic and anti-Orthodox prejudice. It is the reason why high church priests in the Church of England who were working alongside the Salvation Army to aid the poor in South London were thrown into prison for wearing chasubles. It is the reason why Marshal Field, owner of the department store, who had a phobia of German American immigrants, encouraged the violent suppression of protests by German American workers in Chicago. And it is the basis for such unpleasant sentiments as one finds, for example, in a notorious article from the psuedo-denomination 9 Marks which basically asserts that the Catholics and Orthodox of the Middle East brought the Islamic persecution they have been enduring since the seventh century onto themselves as a result of their alcoholism and inappropriate contentography-viewing idolatry (!): 9 Marks’ Deeply Disturbing Remarks Aimed at Roman Catholics and InterVarsity | The Wartburg Watch 2024

Wartburg Watch by the way is a lovely website one of whose owners is a Lutheran, and they do a very good job advocating against abuses in terms of pastoral care, which is also an issue I care about quite a lot, and is also something I admire our friend @Paidiske for, for her zero-tolerance policy towards pastoral malpractice. Actually I think @Paidiske if you ever are blessed with more time, you ought to meet those ladies with the Wartburg Watch as they agree with your core positions and like you are deeply concerned about the mistreatment of people in churches, which is also an area of concern to me.

It is also ironic by the way given the raising of the issue of clericalism in this thread to note that clericalism of late has frequently occurred in a severe and noxious form in those megachurches with “celebrity pastors” who abuse their laity for a time until they are stopped, people such as Mark Driscoll. I am opposed to the idea of celebrity pastors such as Driscoll, Osteen, etc. I feel that our Lord made an important point in stressing that whoever wants to lead, must be the servant of all. Or as St. John the Baptist put it, “I must decrease so that He may increase.”

Actually, I had indicated the irony of such a position in the last part of my post where I gave the possibility (remote as it could possibly be in my own case (this is sarcasm)) that my own understanding might be flawed and that of other churches and Christians be correct. In truth, I have developed over my life, even as all of us do, including Martin Luther and John Wesley, such that, although I may have believed at one point that my own private interpretation was absolutely true and, therefore unchangeable, that is certainly not the case now.

There are quite a few churches in my area which I could comfortably join. I am comfortable with my present church, having left my previous church because of their drift toward universalism. One curious things about my present church was an elder who had been there at least five years and had discovered, much to his shock and horror, that the church, which has a very clearly articulated confession, differed from him on the issue of baptism. He has subsequently left. I hope he will find a church more aligned with his theology.

The bottom line is that we all need humility to accept the fact that we are fallible, fallen humans who, despite our very best efforts, are vastly far from the ultimate perfection of God.

 

[The Liturgist]

Actually, I had indicated the irony of such a position in the last part of my post where I gave the possibility (remote as it could possibly be in my own case (this is sarcasm)) that my own understanding might be flawed and that of other churches and Christians be correct. In truth, I have developed over my life, even as all of us do, including Martin Luther and John Wesley, such that, although I may have believed at one point that my own private interpretation was absolutely true and, therefore unchangeable, that is certainly not the case now.

There are quite a few churches in my area which I could comfortably join. I am comfortable with my present church, having left my previous church because of their drift toward universalism. One curious things about my present church was an elder who had been there at least five years and had discovered, much to his shock and horror, that the church, which has a very clearly articulated confession, differed from him on the issue of baptism. He has subsequently left. I hope he will find a church more aligned with his theology.

The bottom line is that we all need humility to accept the fact that we are fallible, fallen humans who, despite our very best efforts, are vastly far from the ultimate perfection of God.

Ah, well that’s splendid, then. I thought you were saying that you had been alienated by your church, which indeed it sounds like you were, from the church that embraced a universalist position (out of curiosity, was that a PCUSA church? I am hoping it was not a more traditional Reformed church?) And on the other hand I think Mark and I were afraid in the back of our minds that you were saying, what it sounds like you clearly are not saying, because obviously we have to be ready and willing to conform our beliefs to the Faith as opposed to trying to conform the Faith to our private beliefs.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ah, well that’s splendid, then. I thought you were saying that you had been alienated by your church, which indeed it sounds like you were, from the church that embraced a universalist position (out of curiosity, was that a PCUSA church? I am hoping it was not a more traditional Reformed church?) And on the other hand I think Mark and I were afraid in the back of our minds that you were saying, what it sounds like you clearly are not saying, because obviously we have to be ready and willing to conform our beliefs to the Faith as opposed to trying to conform the Faith to our private beliefs.

Actually, it was a Plymouth Brethren chapel. Although my personal beliefs, as you know, are much more aligned with Reformed theology, those of the Brethren are mildly Arminian, a fact I had been willing to life with. What ultimately matters, at least to me, is the centrality of Christian faith as expressed in the early creeds. The church, though badly rent by divisions and schisms, is still the body of Jesus Christ and is united with Him through faith.

 

[discombobulated1]

Hello brothers and sisters in our Lord!

I have had a lot weighing on my mind over the past few days regarding the Catholic Doctrine of "The Fewness of the Saved". I am a devout Roman Catholic and I had never heard of this doctrine before. I am used to having always been taught mercy and forgiveness not the pretty much IMPOSSIBLE chance of reaching Heaven. In this doctrine, backed by many Saints, very, VERY few Christians who think they are saved go to Heaven and most go to Hell. In this doctrine, according to Saint Leonard Of Port Maurice, on the hour of his death only two people out of 33.000 went to heaven and 3 out of 33,000 went to Purgatory. That means that MANY Christians who really followed and loved The Lord are in Hell. Only a few that are "Chosen By God" make it to Purgatory or Heaven. That is severely frightening to me because that would mean Heaven is basically reserved for the chosen Saints and that is about it. I am losing hope since the thought of Heaven and a love for our beautiful Lord are what get me through my days. I am far from perfect, and I fear perfection is what it takes. What do you all think?

Here is some information about this doctrine: The Fewness Of The Saved

A Roman Catholic Priest's sermon this doctrine:

I think that often people LOOK good to others but that doesn't mean they are good (when no one iss looking). So yeh, you think there are a lot of good Christians out there, but it looks to me like you could very well be mistaken. After seeing how most people act and being on this earth for some time, I have really no problem believing St Leonard. That is sad but if it is true, then it is not sad... when you think about it.

It is just Justice. I mean, yeh, no one wants to believe that most people end up in Hell. But God is just so we have to accept such things (assuming it is true. The longer I live, the more I say it is. That's just how I see things)