The Feasts of The Lord

[tzadik]

What he fails to realize is that these apointments were made between God and the children of Israel, under the Old Covenant. Under the New Covenant, Romans 14:5 seems to rule according to observances of holy days:

It's interesting that you bring up the New Covenant to 'explain away the appointed times between God and His people...seeing that, the 'New Covenant' (atleast the one referenced in Jeremiah 31/Hebrews 8) is cut between God and the Houses of Israel and Judah.

How is it that you claim the New Covenant as your own, when in fact it was cut between God and Israel, yet you want nothing to do with the Law and God's Appointed Times, which were also first given to Israel?

God chose Israel, and gave EVERYTHING to Israel first, even the Gospel (Romans 1:16).
It was Israel's task to share God's revelation, the Messiah, the good news, and even God's Word to the nations.

Had the Jewish believers not heeded Messiah's command to go into the nations and proclaim the good news and God's ways to the nations, you and I would still be lost!

Romans 14:5-6 5 One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks. He who doesn’t eat, to the Lord he doesn’t eat, and gives God thanks. (World English Bible)

It's pretty clear from verse 1 of this passage that Paul is dealing with matter of man's opinions.
Last time I checked God's Holy Days and the Feasts days in Leviticus 23 are defintely NOT man's opinions but commandments of God!

 

[weariedsoul]

It's interesting that you bring up the New Covenant to 'explain away the appointed times between God and His people...seeing that, the 'New Covenant' (atleast the one referenced in Jeremiah 31/Hebrews 8) is cut between God and the Houses of Israel and Judah.

How is it that you claim the New Covenant as your own, when in fact it was cut between God and Israel, yet you want nothing to do with the Law and God's Appointed Times, which were also first given to Israel?

God chose Israel, and gave EVERYTHING to Israel first, even the Gospel (Romans 1:16).
It was Israel's task to share God's revelation, the Messiah, the good news, and even God's Word to the nations.

Had the Jewish believers not heeded Messiah's command to go into the nations and proclaim the good news and God's ways to the nations, you and I would still be lost!


It's pretty clear from verse 1 of this passage that Paul is dealing with matter of man's opinions.
Last time I checked God's Holy Days and the Feasts days in Leviticus 23 are defintely NOT man's opinions but commandments of God!

Where has Jesus commanded gentiles to observe holy days? Where do the apostles teach Gentiles to observe holy days? I don't understand the need to promote holy days as law that must be obeyed when God has not commanded gentiles to do this. Notice that Gentiles are not given OC food laws? Why is that? Notice that we are taught that all commandments are about love for God and others? Notice that paul teaches us not to commit idolatry through covetousness, and to live holy lives in peace and love but does not teach any holy day? If one flees from and abstains from works of the flesh, humbles themselves, doesnt judge or condemn, and always forgives, and obeys the spirit of the law which is love then they are obeying the commandments of Christ, that's all God has asked gentiles to do.

 

[Frogster]

It's this simple.

Whose Appointed times (Feasts) are they?
Leviticus 23 makes it crystal clear that they are God's Appointed Times (Feasts).

Now that we know this, the question then is...
Are we as God's children, as God's Household supposed to throw away His Appointed Times (Feasts) ?

or are we as God's children, as God's Household supposed to first understand, obey and follow His Appointed Times (Feasts)?

It's quite easy to "belittle" Feast days when they are "men's feasts" or even "jewish feasts". But we must remember that they are God's Holy Days.

That simple fact changes things.

They were not given to gentiles. The gentiles were not given the law. They were not circumcised, they were not jewish, that is a fact. One has to be circumcised to keep the passover, the gentiles were outside the law.


Psalm 147:19 He declares his word to Jacob, his statutes and rules to Israel.20 He has not dealt thus with any other nation;they do not know his rules.
Praise the LORD!


2 Chronicles 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, as ordained forever for Israel.


John 2:13
The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 6:4
Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.

John 11:55
Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and many went up from the country to Jerusalem before the Passover to purify themselves

1 Cor 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.


Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Exodus 12:48
When a stranger sojourning with you wishes to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

 

[Frogster]

It's interesting that you bring up the New Covenant to 'explain away the appointed times between God and His people...seeing that, the 'New Covenant' (atleast the one referenced in Jeremiah 31/Hebrews 8) is cut between God and the Houses of Israel and Judah.

How is it that you claim the New Covenant as your own, when in fact it was cut between God and Israel, yet you want nothing to do with the Law and God's Appointed Times, which were also first given to Israel?

God chose Israel, and gave EVERYTHING to Israel first, even the Gospel (Romans 1:16).
It was Israel's task to share God's revelation, the Messiah, the good news, and even God's Word to the nations.

Had the Jewish believers not heeded Messiah's command to go into the nations and proclaim the good news and God's ways to the nations, you and I would still be lost!


It's pretty clear from verse 1 of this passage that Paul is dealing with matter of man's opinions.
Last time I checked God's Holy Days and the Feasts days in Leviticus 23 are defintely NOT man's opinions but commandments of God!

the gentiles were partaking of the new cov, read 1 cor 11, and paul was a new cov minister to gentiles, read 2 Cor 3, so there goes you only judah and israel notion.

besides, stop acting like god was writing festival laws and jewish food laws on gentile hearts.


the jewish christians in antioch, were living as gentiles, that is a fact.

 

[Frogster]

duplicate

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

who is taking? i am just showing what scripture says, they were given to the jews, and there is a reason paul warded judaism off the churches, using Abraham.

Why do you think scripture warded off this stuff for the churches?

Scripture (are you forgetting what the "scripture" of Paul's day was? ) did not ward it off and neither does Paul. You're misinterpreting and misrepresenting Paul.

 

[PrincessBrideOfChrist]

Wow I've opened a can of worms here! This makes great reading!

 

[Frogster]

Scripture (are you forgetting what the "scripture" of Paul's day was? ) did not ward it off and neither does Paul. You're misinterpreting and misrepresenting Paul.

Paul indeed did use Abraham against those who were imposing Judaism in Galatia in chapters 3 and 4.

Also in Romans 4 he stressed faith and grace to be Abrahams seed, and it was not about law that works wrath 4:15, and no one can ge heirs by law, or circumcision, meaning judaism or it voids the promise, it's all in Romans 4, he even says in that Jewish people have to walk as Abraham did pre-circumcision in Romans 4:12, pre-Judaism, to be heirs, faith and grace, Rom 4:16.

Then in Romans 9 he did the same, he was taking down law, and lineage, and Judaism, it's all about the Gospel and faith now, he says that people are not the people of God because they are from Israel, meaning nationality, race, or Judaism. Please read 9:8, as he again in Romans 9 was stressing that to be offspring of Abraham, it was all about faith now, not the things I mentioned here. Just like in Paul's day there was jewish boasting, sadly leaders in the Hebrew Roots movement are raising up that boasting all over again, trying to subordinate people to the Mosaic code, Sabbath, festivals, food laws etc.

That's why Paul brought it all back to pre circumcised Abraham, then there is no boasting.


Thanks, frog.

 

[Frogster]

Wow I've opened a can of worms here! This makes great reading!

Hi there, to me it's best to hear both sides of a doctrine, to get as Bill O'Reilly says, fair and balanced, in a no spin zone. Good thread, thanks, frog.

 

[Frogster]

That's also why Paul told them to stay in the faith, stay in the Gospel in Col 1:23, because in chapter two, he was telling them not to get under feasts, or circumcision, and all the other things the false teachers were adding on.

Paul said as they received Christ, walk in him 2:6, meaning continue to live by faith, and not to look to the shadows of festivals for spiritual improvement, or the other things in chapter 2, they were not things concerning the gospel.

 

[tzadik]

Where has Jesus commanded gentiles to observe holy days? Where do the apostles teach Gentiles to observe holy days? I don't understand the need to promote holy days as law that must be obeyed when God has not commanded gentiles to do this. Notice that Gentiles are not given OC food laws? Why is that? Notice that we are taught that all commandments are about love for God and others? Notice that paul teaches us not to commit idolatry through covetousness, and to live holy lives in peace and love but does not teach any holy day? If one flees from and abstains from works of the flesh, humbles themselves, doesnt judge or condemn, and always forgives, and obeys the spirit of the law which is love then they are obeying the commandments of Christ, that's all God has asked gentiles to do.

Just FYI:
There is no "New Testament" in the Scriptures.
There is no "Old Testament" in the Scriptures.
God's Instructions to His people are not separated by "man-made" divisions.

Knowing that makes understanding God's instructions much easier.
It also makes you agree with 2 Timothy 3:14-17.

 

[tzadik]

the gentiles were partaking of the new cov, read 1 cor 11, and paul was a new cov minister to gentiles, read 2 Cor 3, so there goes you only judah and israel notion.

besides, stop acting like god was writing festival laws and jewish food laws on gentile hearts.


the jewish christians in antioch, were living as gentiles, that is a fact.

If you wanna talk New Covenant then show me in Jeremiah 31 where any New Covenant was made with Gentiles.

You can't, cuz...well cuz it's not there.
Yes they can partake in the covenants of God, but only after they are grafted into God's believing people.

OUtside of that context...Gentiles are no more than what Ephesians 2

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--
12. remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

It's funny that many Christians would agree that everything in verse 12 is now given to them (Through Messiah) yet they want nothing to do with "the commonwealth of Israel".
Very Peculiar.

 

[Frogster]

If you wanna talk New Covenant then show me in Jeremiah 31 where any New Covenant was made with Gentiles.

You can't, cuz...well cuz it's not there.
Yes they can partake in the covenants of God, but only after they are grafted into God's believing people.

OUtside of that context...Gentiles are no more than what Ephesians 2

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--
12. remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

It's funny that many Christians would agree that everything in verse 12 is now given to them (Through Messiah) yet they want nothing to do with "the commonwealth of Israel".
Very Peculiar.

so paul was not a minister of the new cov? Do you realize your view that gentiles are not in the new cov, is an obscure, pratically unknown theology, I mean, no one believes that one bro, with all due respect, and courtesy, it's really...really...ummmmmm?



2 Cor 3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.





1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is foryou. Do this in remembrance of me.”[f] 25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

 

[Frogster]

If you wanna talk New Covenant then show me in Jeremiah 31 where any New Covenant was made with Gentiles.

You can't, cuz...well cuz it's not there.
Yes they can partake in the covenants of God, but only after they are grafted into God's believing people.

OUtside of that context...Gentiles are no more than what Ephesians 2

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7. so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11. Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--
12. remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

It's funny that many Christians would agree that everything in verse 12 is now given to them (Through Messiah) yet they want nothing to do with "the commonwealth of Israel".
Very Peculiar.

ephesians2-3, talks all about one new man AFTER JEWISH LAW ABOLISHMENT IN 2:15, the gospel, abraham, and the household of God in 2 was all about a spiriutal temple being built, the body in 3:6, so u r flat out wrong.


and when are you going to prove that the jewish feasts were for the gentiles, and the sabby?

LETS NOT DERAIL, AND GET INTO THE WHOLE COMMONWEALTH, AND NEW COV ISSUE, OUR SISTERS THREAD IS ABOUT FEASTS!

 

[cyberlizard]

stupid website will not let me display page three.

Steve

 

[Steve Petersen]

Let's put a little perspective on things:

At the time of the Apostles, Judaism was very popular amongst Gentiles:

'We have already demonstrated that our laws have been such as have always inspired admiration and imitation into all other men; nay, the earliest Grecian philosophers, though in appearance they observed the laws of their own countries, yet did thy, in their actions and their philosophic doctrines follow our legislator, and instructed men to live sparingly, and to have friendly communication one with another. Nay, farther, the multitude of mankind itself have had a great inclination of a long time to follow our religious observances; for there is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day has not come, and by which our fasts and lighting up lamps, and many of our prohibitions as to our food, are not observed; they also endeavor to imitate our mutual concord with one another, and in the charitable distribution of our goods, and our diligence in our trades, and our fortitude in undergoing distresses we are in, on account of our laws; and, what is here matter of greatest admiration, our law hath no bait of pleasure to allure men to it, but prevails by its own force; and as God himself pervades all the worlds, so hath our law passed through all the world also.’
-Josephus, Against Apion 2:280-285

particularly in Asia Minor:

‘There is reason to suppose that Jewish influence in Asia Minor was then considerable. Judaism attracted both the enlightened Gentiles and the masses. There is cogent proof of this at Apamea whose inhabitants associated the biblical story of the Deluge with legends connected with their city and inscribed Noah's ark on their coins. Jewish customs became popular throughout the towns of Asia Minor. Josephus reports that the kindling of Sabbath lights was customary among Gentiles. Many attended synagogues on Sabbaths and festivals. A movement of worshipers of the Supreme God, "God fearers" (sebomenoi, foboumenoi tOn qeon) was very popular throughout Asia Minor, and many groups of pagans practiced the cult of the "Supreme God" without renouncing their own religions.’
-Encyclopedia Judaica, Asia Minor

Coincidentally, Asia Minor was Paul’s primary area of evangelism. In his missionary journeys to Asia Minor, the book of Acts indicates that Paul first went to the local synagogue where he found many Gentiles.

Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience...42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 18:19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. 9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. 10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Some of the Gentiles Paul found in the synagogues had converted to Judaism under rabbinic law and were considered by the leaders of the Jewish communities as Jews in all regards. Most Gentiles found in the synagogues had not converted but lingered in the back of the synagogue. These Gentiles are called ‘God-fearers.’ A distinction must be drawn between God-fearers and rank pagans.

 

[Frogster]

We know there were God fearers in the synagogues, Gentiles, but they were not Christians yet, and lets not forget, Peter called the law a yoke, he, nor the fathers could bear, and james said not to burden the church with the law also right in Acts 15:10.

Peter gave a historical, experiential definition of the fathers, generations back, that antedated the council meeting issue anyway, it was a yoke.


Lets not also forget that the synagogue leaders also opened up Paul's back 5 times with a whip, so in the very early days some of the jewish converts were in the synagogues, but that did not last too long at all, and those prior to christ, were not even Christians anyway. The synagogues would not be safe for Christians as the church grew.


Gal 6:12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who would force you to be circumcised, and only in order that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.

 

[jiminpa]

Just FYI:
There is no "New Testament" in the Scriptures.
There is no "Old Testament" in the Scriptures.
God's Instructions to His people are not separated by "man-made" divisions.

Knowing that makes understanding God's instructions much easier.
It also makes you agree with 2 Timothy 3:14-17.

I have beat that drum for over a decade, and it never ceases to amaze me how people resist the obvious truth. When Paul wrote to Timothy he was not testifying on his own behalf, in fact the NT had not yet been compiled, he was calling the OT the inspired scripture, profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting, training and doctrine. Paul's doctrines came from the Jewish scriptures. He understood that what he and the other first apostles were writing and that we have now canonized was already in the law and prophets. Like the foolish religious of his day we too, (me included), don't see what is right in front of our eyes in the OT, and we miss the deepest teachings on God's heart and the best meaning of Emmanuel by discarding the Jewish scriptures. Yet we love to claim the parts of the OT we want, as if we can selfishly claim the pleasant parts without paying attention to the parts that require something of us.

 

[Frogster]

I have beat that drum for over a decade, and it never ceases to amaze me how people resist the obvious truth. When Paul wrote to Timothy he was not testifying on his own behalf, in fact the NT had not yet been compiled, he was calling the OT the inspired scripture, profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting, training and doctrine. Paul's doctrines came from the Jewish scriptures. He understood that what he and the other first apostles were writing and that we have now canonized was already in the law and prophets. Like the foolish religious of his day we too, (me included), don't see what is right in front of our eyes in the OT, and we miss the deepest teachings on God's heart and the best meaning of Emmanuel by discarding the Jewish scriptures. Yet we love to claim the parts of the OT we want, as if we can selfishly claim the pleasant parts without paying attention to the parts that require something of us.

Yes, we all know Paul used the the OT, to bring to light the gospel, even in the timothy citation in the verse before, he gave the context, salvation, not legalism. Salavation by faith, paul's gosepl was in the OT, Rom 1:2, and 16:26, and elsewhere, it was hidden eph 3, the glory of Christ came in the Gospel, 2 Cor 4:4.


2 Tim 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Yahu]

Let's put a little perspective on things:

At the time of the Apostles, Judaism was very popular amongst Gentiles:

particularly in Asia Minor:

Coincidentally, Asia Minor was Paul’s primary area of evangelism. In his missionary journeys to Asia Minor, the book of Acts indicates that Paul first went to the local synagogue where he found many Gentiles.

Some of the Gentiles Paul found in the synagogues had converted to Judaism under rabbinic law and were considered by the leaders of the Jewish communities as Jews in all regards. Most Gentiles found in the synagogues had not converted but lingered in the back of the synagogue. These Gentiles are called ‘God-fearers.’ A distinction must be drawn between God-fearers and rank pagans.

Well said. The debate was over the requirements of salvation. Conversion to a Pharisee wasn't required. The Pharisees followed the oral and written law.