The fate of Satan, the beast and his demons mirror each other

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 40-47 are not even speaking about the second coming. They are already long-fulfilled. If that is your rebuttal then it is weak.

How is Ezekiel 47 and Zech 14 fulfilled? did the mount of Olives split in two and a new river form and heal the dead sea on a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD comes and melts the invaders? Im sorry I missed that. You see the literal view this would be the same day as Armageddon and Jerusalem would be over run at that time too. These verse that talk about the 2nd coming all have a clear before and after picture even Dan 2 shows that the stone cut without hands grinds the image of mans kingdoms to powder and leaves no trace of them and this kingdom is a mountain that covers the earth and has no end. All these verse interconnect to give one narrative and in Rev you are warned no to take away of ad to the book. You tired to limit futurism to hang on chapter 20 of Revelation which you dismiss the obvious chronology in the book and then dismiss all the supporting prophecies as well.

In four places scripture talks about about the time David is raised up.

Hosea 3 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Now in Jesus day the sacrifice was up and running for centuries and they had been in the land too for centuries. This chapter notes that Israel will go many days without a sacrifice which implies after many days they have one again. It also notes they will return so they must have left and no doubt this is referring to the latter days.

This Idea is affirmed in Jer 30 3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”

Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.

18 “Thus says the LORD:
‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

Again the day David is raised up is the day of Jacob's trouble and he is saved out of it and clearly labelled a latter day prophecy and this end is the declared intent of the LORD's heart.

Eze 37 makes 3 witnesses testifying to the same outcome.

Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it,” says the LORD.’ ”
15 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.
18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”

The latter days the kingdom comes and all this is future and the zeal of the LORD will perform it.

sovereigngrace · Sep 22, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
How is Ezekiel 47 and Zech 14 fulfilled? did the mount of Olives split in two and a new river form and heal the dead sea on a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD comes and melts the invaders? Im sorry I missed that. You see the literal view this would be the same day as Armageddon and Jerusalem would be over run at that time too. These verse that talk about the 2nd coming all have a clear before and after picture even Dan 2 shows that the stone cut without hands grinds the image of mans kingdoms to powder and leaves no trace of them and this kingdom is a mountain that covers the earth and has no end. All these verse interconnect to give one narrative and in Rev you are warned no to take away of ad to the book. You tired to limit futurism to hang on chapter 20 of Revelation which you dismiss the obvious chronology in the book and then dismiss all the supporting prophecies as well.

In four places scripture talks about about the time David is raised up.

Hosea 3 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Now in Jesus day the sacrifice was up and running for centuries and they had been in the land too for centuries. This chapter notes that Israel will go many days without a sacrifice which implies after many days they have one again. It also notes they will return so they must have left and no doubt this is referring to the latter days.

This Idea is affirmed in Jer 30 3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’ ”

Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.

18 “Thus says the LORD:
‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

Again the day David is raised up is the day of Jacob's trouble and he is saved out of it and clearly labelled a latter day prophecy and this end is the declared intent of the LORD's heart.

Eze 37 makes 3 witnesses testifying to the same outcome.

Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it,” says the LORD.’ ”
15 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.
18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”

The latter days the kingdom comes and all this is future and the zeal of the LORD will perform it.

Zechariah 14

Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

The prophets frequently intermixed literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

Luke 3:4-5 records, speaking of that great forerunner of Christ – John the Baptist, “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 40:3-5), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.”

John 4:10, 14: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water ... But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

The living waters is the Holy Spirit. The former sea represents Old Testament Israel and the hinder sea represents the overwhelmingly Gentile New Testament Church. It figuratively represents the Gospel going out to the Jews and the Gentiles through the power of the Holy Spirit.

We have already entered into the kingdom through the new birth (John 3:3), which is repeatedly described as everlasting life.

Daniel 2

Daniel 2:34-35 says, "a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

The kingdom began as a small stone with the early church and has now become (as predicted) a large mountain today throughout the world. Christ verified this with his parables re the seed and the leaven growing.

Christ already brought that eternal kingdom, of which, every blood-bought believer has currently entered. Daniel is predicting the appearing of the Kingdom of God at Christ’s first Advent.

Matthew 13:31-32 similarly says, “The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Like the figurative growth of the stone into a large mountain in Daniel 2, the spread of the Kingdom of God is here metaphorically compared to the growth of (1) a small mustard seed and (2) that of leaven.

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Zechariah 14

Zechariah 14:4 says, “And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.”

The prophets frequently intermixed literal and figurative language all the time. That makes it difficult to dissect. Even in the midst of the most literal of passages in the Bible, mountains are repeatedly used to impress deep spiritual truths. The predicted mountain moving ministry of John the Baptist is a case-in-point. The result of the cross saw the Gospel go out to both Jew and Gentile alike. The scope of the cross-work reached far-and-wide.

Luke 3:4-5 records, speaking of that great forerunner of Christ – John the Baptist, “As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet (in Isaiah 40:3-5), saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth.”

John 4:10, 14: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water ... But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

The living waters is the Holy Spirit. The former sea represents Old Testament Israel and the hinder sea represents the overwhelmingly Gentile New Testament Church. It figuratively represents the Gospel going out to the Jews and the Gentiles through the power of the Holy Spirit.

We have already entered into the kingdom through the new birth (John 3:3), which is repeatedly described as everlasting life.

Daniel 2

Daniel 2:34-35 says, "a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

The kingdom began as a small stone with the early church and has now become (as predicted) a large mountain today throughout the world. Christ verified this with his parables re the seed and the leaven growing.

Christ already brought that eternal kingdom, of which, every blood-bought believer has currently entered. Daniel is predicting the appearing of the Kingdom of God at Christ’s first Advent.

Matthew 13:31-32 similarly says, “The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

Like the figurative growth of the stone into a large mountain in Daniel 2, the spread of the Kingdom of God is here metaphorically compared to the growth of (1) a small mustard seed and (2) that of leaven.

HI I appreciate your attempting to explain your view if Zech 14 but there is nothing in that passage that suggests it is allegorical. That invasion of Jerusalem and the LORD coming and slaying the invaders is that an allegory too? The specifics of the geography when the Mt of Olives splits and the valley formed are clearly linked specifically to the day the LORD is king over all the earth. It even denotes that from that point on the nations which are left which means some nations no longer exist will have to come to Jerusalem and worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain. Egypt is singled out for this too so life is seen continuing after the LORD has come and is king.

This river is important too as you failed to refute the clear prophecy in eZeekiel that the dead sea will be healed and a prosperous fishing town. This occurs when the 12 tribes receive their inheritance withing the boundaries of the promised land.

The spiritual aspect of the kingdom is true and one needs to be born again to see the kingdom of God. These truths do not nullify all the promises, prophecies and oaths as you suggest. The LORD in Jer “For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters,
And hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water.

Now in Zech 14 the people confess in that day the LORD is one/ they are confessing Jesus is one with father. You can keep arguing all is allegorical but the integrated complexity of the literal belief holds together without contradiction embracing 100's of specific detailed outcomes. There is merit in some of your concepts but every detail will be fulfilled and the odds of mathematical probabilities showed Jesus fulfilled every scripture in minute detail regarding hte 1st advents and it will be so for the 2nd as well.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 22, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi John in Rev was told to write the things which he saw chapter one and the things that are chapters 2 and 3 and the things that will take place after this. Now in the category of things still to take place are the angels proclaiming the kingdoms of God have become the kingdoms of our LORD and His Christ and He shall rule forever and ever.

I agree Jesus will take the throne of David as that is obvious the when is still future.

I showed you that Peter taught in Acts 2:29-36 that Jesus took the throne of David upon His resurrection. Do you have any thoughts on that? Please address that first before bringing up other scripture. Otherwise, you are coming across as if you are avoiding the point that I made. You can't just expect me to address your points without you addressing any of mine.

sovereigngrace · Sep 22, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
HI I appreciate your attempting to explain your view if Zech 14 but there is nothing in that passage that suggests it is allegorical. That invasion of Jerusalem and the LORD coming and slaying the invaders is that an allegory too? The specifics of the geography when the Mt of Olives splits and the valley formed are clearly linked specifically to the day the LORD is king over all the earth. It even denotes that from that point on the nations which are left which means some nations no longer exist will have to come to Jerusalem and worship the king and keep the feast of tabernacles or they will get no rain. Egypt is singled out for this too so life is seen continuing after the LORD has come and is king.

This river is important too as you failed to refute the clear prophecy in eZeekiel that the dead sea will be healed and a prosperous fishing town. This occurs when the 12 tribes receive their inheritance withing the boundaries of the promised land.

The spiritual aspect of the kingdom is true and one needs to be born again to see the kingdom of God. These truths do not nullify all the promises, prophecies and oaths as you suggest. The LORD in Jer “For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters,
And hewn themselves cisterns—broken cisterns that can hold no water.

Now in Zech 14 the people confess in that day the LORD is one/ they are confessing Jesus is one with father. You can keep arguing all is allegorical but the integrated complexity of the literal belief holds together without contradiction embracing 100's of specific detailed outcomes. There is merit in some of your concepts but every detail will be fulfilled and the odds of mathematical probabilities showed Jesus fulfilled every scripture in minute detail regarding hte 1st advents and it will be so for the 2nd as well.

I have to disagree. I did not say it was all allegorical. Please re-read my post.

So, is Zechariah 14 your supposed future millennium?

Zechariah 14:2-3 says, “For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.”

Amils are actually split on whether this should be interpreted literally or spiritually. The literal interpretation normally relates this passage to AD 70 after the Gentiles destroyed Christ (in the form of the Roman soldiers); the Gospel then conquered them. Jerusalem is considered literal earthly Jerusalem. Significantly, the instrument of its destruction – Rome – subsequently became the epicenter of the Gospel witness for many years after the cross. I must qualify: I am not talking about current Roman Catholicism, which is pagan, but rather ancient Christianity that was centered in Rome for years. God brought His wrath upon the city of Jerusalem because of Israel’s disobedience.

The destruction of the city and the raping of the city occurred in AD 70. At that time the Roman Empire enjoyed jurisdiction over the whole known world (Luke 2:1). Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.

On the other hand, some Amils spiritualize Jerusalem here to pertain to Christ and the kingdom of God and relate the Gentile rejection of the same under the old covenant and the turn around that occurred with the great commission in the New Testament to Zechariah 14:2-3. Basically: the darkened Gentile nations were invaded with the Gospel light of Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 22, 2021

DavidPT said:
As to some of satan's angels, some of them would be bound in the pit while some of them would not be. That assuming that the pit and hell in 2 Peter 2:4 are referring to the same place. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The ones that would be would be the ones directly involved with the following. All of them were not directly involved with the following though, otherwise there would be no unclean spirits to cast out of anyone, they would all be imprisoned in the same place the others per the following are.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

The angels that sinned have to do with the events recorded in verse 5 and 6 apparently, and have nothing to do with when satan initially fell.

How are you coming to this conclusion? That is not at all what the passage indicates. Verse 4 is a completely separate event from verse 5 and from verse 6.

In that passage Peter gave 3 separate examples of groups that rebelled against God. The first one was "the angels that sinned". That refers to all fallen angels since all fallen angels sinned. There is no basis whatsoever to conclude otherwise. Them being "delivered...into chains of darkness" is figurative language. Spirit beings like angels can't be literally chained. When will you ever acknowledge that?

The second example Peter gave was the unbelievers in Noah's day. And then the third example was the ungodly people of Sodom and Gomorrah. The reference to the angels that sinned has nothing to do with the unbelievers of Noah's day or to the unbelievers in Sodom and Gomorrah.

satan had already fallen when these angels sinned. satan is not among the ones meant in verse 4, but if he was, nothing in these 3 verses are involving any events 2000 years ago, though. When is it that you think God initially cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment? What exactly does being cast down to hell mean to you? Do you believe in a literal place called hell? If yes, shouldn't that mean they were cast down to this literal place? What else could it mean?

Yes, there is a literal place called hell, but this verse is referencing a fictional place that the ancient Greeks believed in called Tartarus (Greek tartaroō - Strong's G5020), which is not the literal place of hell mentioned elsewhere in scripture. It was the ancient Greeks' fictional version of hell that is part of Greek mythology. That word isn't mentioned in any other verse in scripture.

The Greek word for the literal place that scripture calls hell is the Greek word Hades. The fact that Peter spoke of the angels being cast down to a fictional hell instead of the real hell and being chained up there makes it clear that the verse is using figurative language.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

It seems to me that the angels meant here are the same ones meant in 2 Peter 2:4

Of course they are the same. And it refers to them as "the angels which kept not their first estate". That refers to all fallen angels! All fallen angels left their first estate. The 2 Peter 2:4 verse refers to "the angels that sinned". All fallen angels sinned!

So, this only leaves two choices, even though you try to create a third one. The first choice is to believe that all fallen angels, which includes Satan, are literally confined somewhere. The second choice is to see the descriptions of them being chained up as figurative language. Any other choice someone comes up with is due to doctrinal bias.

and that they are being confined until the judgment of the great day. What judgment of the great day?

The same judgment as described in Revelation 20:10-15. They are not specifically mentioned there, but it's very safe to assume that they will be cast into the lake of fire as well. But, they are not being literally confined with chains. That is figurative language. Spirit beings can't be bound with chains. Why can you not understand that?

sovereigngrace · Sep 22, 2021

DavidPT said:
As to some of satan's angels, some of them would be bound in the pit while some of them would not be. That assuming that the pit and hell in 2 Peter 2:4 are referring to the same place. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The ones that would be would be the ones directly involved with the following. All of them were not directly involved with the following though, otherwise there would be no unclean spirits to cast out of anyone, they would all be imprisoned in the same place the others per the following are.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

The angels that sinned have to do with the events recorded in verse 5 and 6 apparently, and have nothing to do with when satan initially fell. satan had already fallen when these angels sinned. satan is not among the ones meant in verse 4, but if he was, nothing in these 3 verses are involving any events 2000 years ago, though. When is it that you think God initially cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment? What exactly does being cast down to hell mean to you? Do you believe in a literal place called hell? If yes, shouldn't that mean they were cast down to this literal place? What else could it mean?

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

It seems to me that the angels meant here are the same ones meant in 2 Peter 2:4, and that they are being confined until the judgment of the great day. What judgment of the great day? How about the following, which BTW is not even meaning the GWTJ.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

It's still early in the day for me. I barely had enough focus to submit this. This doesn't even answer some of what you requested and I realize that. Maybe I will add to this post later, in another post of course.

The angels in Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4 were indeed placed in the abyss long ago - since the Lord's 1st Advent. There is no record in the OT that “the angels which kept not their first estate" (Jude 6) and "the angels that sinned" (2 Peter 2:4) were in "chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment” until they were judged through the early ministry of Christ. Just like the saints were not freed from Hades until the victory also. Just like the angels were not finally and eternally banished from heaven until then. The victory of the cross was the key to spoiling Satan's power and kingdom. It stripped him of his enormous unchallenged global influence, caused him to be dethroned in untold millions of heathen lives and ensured he was curtailed in countless Gentile villages, towns and cities throughout the world through the faithful preaching of the Word of God.

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 22, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
I showed you that Peter taught in Acts 2:29-36 that Jesus took the throne of David upon His resurrection. Do you have any thoughts on that? Please address that first before bringing up other scripture. Otherwise, you are coming across as if you are avoiding the point that I made. You can't just expect me to address your points without you addressing any of mine.

HI I did address this I noted that John in Rev speaking clearly of things to come in the future records this key statement

5 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Now if you break down this proclamation it has nothing to do with acts 2. Look at the context of this future transition. He takes his great power and reigns at the at the time wrath is poured out. The dead are judged and this is not the great white throne but the fulfilled promises to those who will live and reign with Jesus. The rest of the dead do not live again until the great white throne judgement.

I pointed to zech 14 as showing the nations must now have to come to Jerusalem to worship the king and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they get no rain. In Rev 15 talking about what is now post wrath of God we see this.

1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark[fn] and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:
“Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints![fn]
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.”

Look at that last verse and compare with Zech 14 all nations must worship before you after the wrath has been accomplished. John was writing of the things that were still to come. Not talking about acts 2.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 22, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
HI I did address this I noted that John in Rev speaking clearly of things to come in the future records this key statement.

You didn't address what the Acts 2:29-36 passage says at all. Instead, you brought up a different passage. That's not a case of you addressing what I said about the Acts 2:29-36 passage. Can you tell me how you interpret that passage and show me why you think I'm not interpreting it correctly and how the passage teaches the same thing you think the other passage you brought up teaches?

Please address what is stated in that passage itself and then after that we can look at other scripture if you want. I think that's only fair. It's not fair for you to expect me to address what you're saying about another passage without you addressing what I'm saying about Acts 2:29-36 first.

Timtofly · Sep 22, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
It's up to you, but how about you address the concept that all of our spiritual enemies (Satan, his angels and the beast) would be bound and restrained at the same time rather than just one at a time.

I believe it makes no sense to believe that just the beast would be bound and restrained while Satan and his angels are not. You and I agree that the beast was in the pit as of the time of the writing of Revelation (based on Rev 17:8), but you think Satan, and I assume his angels as well, were not. Why exactly would only the beast be bound in the pit while Satan and his angels are not? Please explain that.

As I've pointed out to you before, Revelation 13 gives the strong impression that Satan and the beast work hand in hand and depend on each other, so anything that affects one will affect the other. And anything that affects Satan will affect his angels as well. I think that goes without saying since he is clearly their leader.

So, I'd like to know why and how the beast could be bound in the pit while Satan, and presumably his angels, are not. If Satan can do all his dirty work unrestrained even while the beast is in the pit, then what is the point of Satan working with the beast as described in Revelation 13? Why would Satan bother with the beast if he can do it all himself (or if he and his angels can do it all themselves)? It seems that you think Satan doesn't actually have any use for the beast because he can do the same things with or without the beast (and with or without the second beast/false prophet for that matter).

The whole world system, ie the beast was in the pit in the first century? Demons posses those disobedient to God, enough to allow control of one's mind. Normal people do not go around just asking for trouble, but those who do choose between good and evil sometimes tempt the choice not understanding that by seeing how close one can get, before it is too late. Those who do not know or care about God will not be a target for Satan or demon control. They will just continue in sin.

But to say there is a binding you would have to conclude no possession is possible at all. That all stopped at the Cross. Except it did not, so why claim they were all bound, when obviously they were not.

The point is we have victory over them, not that they are bound where even the occult is void of such demon possession.

The point stressed in this thread, is that there is no activity of Satan and demons any where on earth. You may be able to convince some believers, but I doubt you can convince every human on earth this total lack of occult activity any where on earth.

Timtofly · Sep 22, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Did you notice that his view is based on "basic reading comprehension"? Is that what Paul said we should use to interpret scripture? I don't believe so.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Basic reading comprehension is what "the natural man" uses to try to understand God's word. But, Paul made it clear that the words of scripture must be "spiritually discerned" by "comparing spiritual things with spiritual". I don't see premils doing that with Revelation 20. They are not using other scripture to help them understand Revelation 20, they are interpreting Revelation 20 in isolation and forcing the rest of scripture to fit their interpretation of that passage.

So throw reading comprehension out the window, and only live by faith, waiting for the mind of an elect to guide you?

Douggg · Sep 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
I posted a similar post in a recent thread. But it got lost in the weeds. I think there is some important and compelling evidence that we should consider.

Revelation is just like every other book in the Bible: it describes two kingdoms that are in constant spiritual conflict with each other. John the apostle is giving insight into different aspects of the invisible and visible warfare going on in this current age. When the kingdom of darkness is described it is shown to be currently spiritually restrained and curtailed in regard to their power and influence. The kingdom of God on the other hand is seen in the triumphant Church that brings life and hope to an ignorant world through the victorious life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Kingdoms and their heads are basically indivisible. The head of each state (whether Monarch, President or Prime Minister) is seen as the face of the nation or the personification of what that nation is all about. They are essentially the voice of the people. Even in United Kingdom law, perpetrators of a crime are listed as “R – v the criminal” meaning “Regina v” in a legal case, Regina referring to the Queen. She is counted as the offended party, even though she was not personally injured. She is simply the representative head of the people. The leader has always been viewed as the one who stands on behalf of countless subjects.

The king and his kingdom are used synonymously and interchangeably throughout Scripture. The kingdom of God is described in Scripture in terms that are identical to God Himself. He is its head and its very purpose for existing; Satan likewise is the same in the kingdom of darkness. The kingdom of darkness is a unitary whole. It is a kingdom with a king. A kingdom is basically “a king with a domain.” The kingdom of God is a kingdom of spiritual truth, and the kingdom of darkness is a kingdom of spiritual lies and deception.

When the Bible talks about the activity of the devil, it often includes the phrase “and his angels.” They are depicted as a collective whole. They move and fight as a unitary army. For example, Scripture describes them in Matthew 25:41 as “the devil and his angels,” in Revelation 12:7 as “the dragon … and his angels,” and in Revelation 12:9 as “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan … and his angels.”

The fate of Satan, the beast (spirit of antichrist / mystery of iniquity) and the fallen angels (demons) are therefore all knit together in Scripture. When Satan was banished from the Garden then all evil was. They also all came under the same spiritual subjugation at the exact same time through Christ’s earthly ministry.

Christ didn't just defeat Satan 2,000 years ago, he defeated the demonic kingdom. Every demonic spirit was subjugated through the cross-work and placed in a place of spiritual restraint after the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The freedom and restriction that pertains to Satan permeates down through his subjects as he is the representative head. When the kingdom of darkness is described, it is shown to be currently spiritually restrained and curtailed in regard to their power and influence. The kingdom of God on the other hand is depicted as a triumphant Church that brings life and hope to an ignorant world.

John Calvin rightly says, that Christ “teaches us not only that the tyranny of Satan was abolished by Christ’s death, but also that he himself was so laid prostrate, that no more account is to be made of him than as though he were not. He speaks of the devil according to the usual practice of Scripture, in the singular number, not because there is but one, but because they all form one community which cannot be supposed to be without a head.”

When Satan was bound through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ then the kingdom of darkness was bound (including the beast and every demon). 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Revelation 12:9 shows the close linkage between Satan and his minions when they were banished from heaven after the man child was caught up to His throne: “the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” Revelation 12:3- similar says: “behold a great red dragon, And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.” You cannot divide Satan from the fate of his angels.

Of course, Christ predicted the historic and eternal downfall of Satan in John 12:31-33, shortly before the cross: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection were the decisive blows against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

Satan is described as “the prince (or ruler) of the devils” in Matthew 9:34, 12:24 and Mark 3:22). Matthew 9:34 extends the name to “Beelzebub the prince of the devils.” In Revelation 9:10-11 the scorpion-like demonic host (that is shown to be currently incarcerated within the abyss) are said to have “a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.” This can be no other that Satan. Strong's says: “Apolluon means a destroyer (i.e. Satan).”

When the Bible says “resist the devil, and he will flee from you” this is not limited to only Satan, it is talking about the whole demonic realm. When Satan is released prior to the second coming so also is the whole kingdom of darkness (including the beast and every demon). When they are finally punished they receive their punishment at the same time, albeit in the necessary order that Christ ordains (as we saw God judge in the Garden of Eden).

All we have to do, is examine the fate of each in Scripture and you will quickly see a remarkable correlation.

The book of Revelation consists of a number of parallel recaps relating to the intra-Advent period. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. That does not negate the fact that God's dealings with the beast mirrors that of Satan since Christ’s first Advent. For example, the 6th recap (Revelation 17-19) focuses in on Babylon, but also shows the destruction of all the wicked, the beast and false prophet been banished into the Lake of Fire. Satan is simply not the focus of that parallel. The focus of the last recap (Revelation 20) is God's dealing with Satan. Revelation 20 goes right back to the first resurrection (Christ). It finishes with Satan being banished to the Lake of Fire.

The restraint of the kingdom of darkness stays in effect until just before the second coming, when hell’s legions are collectively released – for a short season at the end. The release of Satan, beast (mystery of iniquity), and demons (scorpions) all occur just prior to the second coming. This proves that the symbolism of Revelation relates to the here-and-now.

What happens at the end of the millennium mirrors what other Scripture tells us happens at the end of our age. There is an intense persecution at the end. Christ comes to judge as it concludes. You would need to rip more than Revelation 20 out of the Bible for it to contradict other Scripture. There is much Scripture that teaches an end-time falling away and tribulation before Christ comes. Revelation 20 fits that perfectly. Satan's season mirrors 2 Thessalonians 2 and the release of the mystery of iniquity before Jesus comes. It also mirrors the release of the beast in order to wreak havoc before Christ comes. As the ESV states: “the mystery of lawlessness is …the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish.”

The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture orchestrated by antichrist/the beast (described as lasting 3 1/2 years). The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Just before the second coming, Satan gets a little season to wreak havoc on the Church. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

What arrives at the second coming is the eternal state - perfection. The earth will be finally and wholly purged of the bondage of corruption, not as Premils argue: we are plagued with another age like ours full of sin and sinners, crying and dying, Satan and his demons. This alleged future Premil millennial kingdom ends with the wicked overrunning the age to come and surrounding Christ in all His glory and the glorified saints.

Amil tries to justify it's misunderstanding in eschatology by the miracle of recapitulation.

At what verse does recapitulation begin in Revelation 20?

sovereigngrace · Sep 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
The point stressed in this thread, is that there is no activity of Satan and demons any where on earth. You may be able to convince some believers, but I doubt you can convince every human on earth this total lack of occult activity any where on earth.

That is not true. I said Satan is on earth today, only restrained within a spiritual prison with spiritual chains. Please address what I have written, not what you want me to believe.

sovereigngrace · Sep 22, 2021

Douggg said:
Amil tries to justify it's misunderstanding in eschatology by the miracle of recapitulation.

At what verse does recapitulation begin in Revelation 20?

Verse 1.

Timtofly · Sep 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
That is not true. I said Satan is on earth today, only restrained within a spiritual prison with spiritual chains. Please address what I have written, not what you want me to believe.

So he is not physically bothering people but spiritually bothering people? That is the whole point of being free of Satan, is that he is physically bound. Having the Holy Spirit keeps us safe spiritually.

sovereigngrace · Sep 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
So he is not physically bothering people but spiritually bothering people? That is the whole point of being free of Satan, is that he is physically bound. Having the Holy Spirit keeps us safe spiritually.

The devil is in a spiritual prison on this earth. His boundaries are carefully defined by God. The abyss is not a physical pit because Satan is not a physical being. The kingdom of darkness is now restrained since the cross. They have been in chains since the earthly ministry of Christ.

The binding is spiritual because Satan and His minions are spiritual. Satan was spiritually bound in chains in order to facilitate the spread of the Gospel to his territory. No other meaning enjoys scriptural corroboration. The rest of the demonic world is bound by chains until the judgment (as demonstrated in 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v6), yet this does not stop their movement. It simply limits it. Satan’s hoards are bound as to their influence but this does not prevent movement. They must keep within heaven’s boundaries.

Timtofly · Sep 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The devil is in a spiritual prison on this earth. His boundaries are carefully defined by God. The abyss is not a physical pit because Satan is not a physical being. The kingdom of God is now restrained since the cross. They have been in chains since the earthly ministry of Christ.

The binding is spiritual because Satan and His minions are spiritual. Satan was spiritually bound in chains in order to facilitate the spread of the Gospel to his territory. No other meaning enjoys scriptural corroboration. The rest of the demonic world is bound by chains until the judgment (as demonstrated in 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v6), yet this does not stop their movement. It simply limits it. Satan’s hoards are bound as to their influence but this does not prevent movement. They must keep within heaven’s boundaries.

Limits it to what? Why are demons less a menace now than before? They never physically fought humans, but always possessed them. If they are bound then there would be no more occult or demon possession period. That is all they have ever done.

So angels have no physical make up at all, but are literal God like? Having spirit is just having air, and air is a physical property, not a different reality. God is the only spirit, as God is something other than air, a physical property. Angels are physically air and fire, ie a star. When appearing on earth they take on a form that does not go beyond the ability of fallen flesh to be overwhelmed by their physical brightness.

Otherwise spirit just means pertaining to God. God has hid Himself from sinful flesh, to spare them from being killed because the corruptible cannot handle God. Some people want to declare invisibility. So an invisible prison to keep Satan from doing invisible stuff. Because you have not given an adequate definition of spirit. Once again spirit is not so esoteric, that it cannot be defined.

Satan can only decieve a person or nation if he can have a physical conversation with such a person. So claiming Satan is bound by air and fire and thus cannot have a conversation, yet Satan is free to walk about physically and can communicate with whomever he chooses, because he is not bound from doing that.

Satan is not figuratively nor symbolically bound, to prove a figurative or symbolic point. Satan is a literal being, not some allegory.

Humanity is in darkness because of sin and self deception. Satan has little to do with that, consequently, since Adam was punished in the darkness of sin. The only thing Satan could do is ask God to allow him to make humans uneffective like Job. Do you think Satan stopped humans in their tracks, or did humans just not have a desire to live out the Law themselves, much less make others obey the Law? The Nation of Israel could have been just as influential as the church was. In fact for a few seconds, Solomon was. Then he got bogged down with the desires of the flesh. No where does it claim Satan came and decieved Solomon so the Law was unable to be copied all across the world.

The worship of so called "gods" evidently offered more ability to please the flesh, than just having a peaceful and sin free life. The Holy Spirit was available at all times. Unless you are a dispensationalist who only limits a special Holy Spirit time post Cross, it was the Holy Spirit in the OT that was active to those who were obedient to God just like today. The early church took more advantage of the Holy Spirit, but most people today are more caught up in materialism than faith and living 100% in the Holy Spirit.

So just saying "spiritually bound", when that is not even what Revelation 20 declares, does not make sense. But I guess reading comprehension is out, and human imagination is in?

sovereigngrace · Sep 23, 2021

Timtofly said:
Limits it to what? Why are demons less a menace now than before? They never physically fought humans, but always possessed them. If they are bound then there would be no more occult or demon possession period. That is all they have ever done.

So angels have no physical make up at all, but are literal God like? Having spirit is just having air, and air is a physical property, not a different reality. God is the only spirit, as God is something other than air, a physical property. Angels are physically air and fire, ie a star. When appearing on earth they take on a form that does not go beyond the ability of fallen flesh to be overwhelmed by their physical brightness.

Otherwise spirit just means pertaining to God. God has hid Himself from sinful flesh, to spare them from being killed because the corruptible cannot handle God. Some people want to declare invisibility. So an invisible prison to keep Satan from doing invisible stuff. Because you have not given an adequate definition of spirit. Once again spirit is not so esoteric, that it cannot be defined.

Satan can only decieve a person or nation if he can have a physical conversation with such a person. So claiming Satan is bound by air and fire and thus cannot have a conversation, yet Satan is free to walk about physically and can communicate with whomever he chooses, because he is not bound from doing that.

Satan is not figuratively nor symbolically bound, to prove a figurative or symbolic point. Satan is a literal being, not some allegory.

Humanity is in darkness because of sin and self deception. Satan has little to do with that, consequently, since Adam was punished in the darkness of sin. The only thing Satan could do is ask God to allow him to make humans uneffective like Job. Do you think Satan stopped humans in their tracks, or did humans just not have a desire to live out the Law themselves, much less make others obey the Law? The Nation of Israel could have been just as influential as the church was. In fact for a few seconds, Solomon was. Then he got bogged down with the desires of the flesh. No where does it claim Satan came and decieved Solomon so the Law was unable to be copied all across the world.

The worship of so called "gods" evidently offered more ability to please the flesh, than just having a peaceful and sin free life. The Holy Spirit was available at all times. Unless you are a dispensationalist who only limits a special Holy Spirit time post Cross, it was the Holy Spirit in the OT that was active to those who were obedient to God just like today. The early church took more advantage of the Holy Spirit, but most people today are more caught up in materialism than faith and living 100% in the Holy Spirit.

So just saying "spiritually bound", when that is not even what Revelation 20 declares, does not make sense. But I guess reading comprehension is out, and human imagination is in?

When the Bible depicts the wicked as being bound in chains and held in prison is it intended to paint a picture of a literal prisoner bound by literal chains in a literal prison? Of course not. When it suits Premils they can easily grasp the symbolism throughout Scripture. But when it cuts across their beloved Premil doctrine they suddenly become rigid, hyper-literalist and unreasonable. The most damning thing for their argument is, the setting we are looking at is undoubtedly extremely figurative.
Do you know of any physical chains that could possibly physically restrain a demonic spirit in a physical prison?
Do you really believe that Revelation 20 is describing Satan being restrained for 'one thousand years' after the second Coming when "a thousand" is symbolically used to represent a long period of time or a large amount and when there is no other mention of this 'one thousand years' anywhere else in the Bible? Again, when it suits Premils they have no difficulty grasping the symbolic use of "a thousand" throughout the Word. But when it cuts across their beloved Premil doctrine they suddenly become rigid, hyper-literalist and unreasonable.

Of course, the imagery of chains and imprisonment being experienced by this dragon is intended to convey the real spiritual restraint, curtailment, damage, curtailment injury that has been executed upon our invisible spiritual foe since the 1st Advent; one that is not limited to a physical spatial geographical or physical place.

The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations, which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

Douggg · Sep 23, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Verse 1.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So Amil is claiming at the time of Jesus's death and resurrection, an angel came down from heaven, and with a chain (figurative) bound up Satan and cast him into the bottomless pit? As Satan and his angels were literally here on earth at the time, based on Revelation 12:4 ?

Which the bottomless pit, a state of being incapacitated in Amil view, is where the kingdom of darkness presently is?

Then after a thousand years - interpreted as representing a long time in Amil view - Satan will be released from his state of incapacitation , and allowed to raise havoc, with his kingdom of darkness, for a short period, i.e the 42 months, 1260 days, the time/times/half times ?

______________________________________________________

Where was the kingdom of darkness, i.e. Satan and his angels kingdom, in the generations before Satan (and his angels presumably) was cast into the bottomless pit? In the third heaven, where God's throne is?

And until Satan is released from being bound, incapacitate, he is not deceiving the nations during the past 2000 years? Things like Islam are not a deception of Satan?

Douggg · Sep 23, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
· Do you know of any physical chains that could possibly physically restrain a demonic spirit in a physical prison?

You are trying to debunk pre-mil with a presumptuous argument that you know the power of the chains the angel had. And of the nature of the prison. Both of those things, the chain and the prison go beyond man's understanding.

The fate of Satan, the beast and his demons mirror each other

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