The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Shrewd Manager]

I think you have it backwards.
God has established the moral standards. It is only reasonable that we should expect him to live up to the standards that he himself has established. This does not mean we are expecting him to live up to OUR standards, we expect him to live up to his OWN standards. If he cannot do that, then he cannot be trusted.

This is the fatal flaw of Damnationism. Because Damnationism has created a god that doesn't live up to the moral standards of God. What we might want to call idolatry. But I don't hold them responsible, we have all been fed the lies.

Congratulations Steve, I think you just 'broke the thread' sir.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The scripture plainly says that HELL is a place of punishment,

Correction Charlie, correction.

Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

Why do you insist on our poor little rape victim being tortured forever for her decision? She's crying out to you Charlie, are you going to say something to Jesus? Beg him to have mercy, maybe?

 

[Charlie24]

I think you have it backwards.
God has established the moral standards. It is only reasonable that we should expect him to live up to the standards that he himself has established. This does not mean we are expecting him to live up to OUR standards, we expect him to live up to his OWN standards. If he cannot do that, then he cannot be trusted.

This is the fatal flaw of Damnationism. Because Damnationism has created a god that doesn't live up to the moral standards of God. What we might want to call idolatry. But I don't hold them responsible, we have all been fed the lies.

I'm afraid Steve that God can not live up to your standards.

That's why you attempt to change His Word to fit your standard.

You remind me of Calvin, always contradicting his own terms of speech.

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe he is trying to say that if your doctrine on hell is mistaken, there is a very good possibility your faith in Christ is also mistaken.

Paul tells us to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith, prove your own selves.

Let's explore that.
What difference does a person's position on the final judgment play in their faith in Christ? Would you say the same thing about Annihilationists? Is their faith in jeopardy for not believing in a forever burning hell?
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Universalism

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm afraid Steve that God can not live up to your standards.

That's why you attempt to change His Word to fit your standard.

You remind me of Calvin, always contradicting his own terms of speech.

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie...
Wow. Take a breath and re-read my post.
I don't expect God to live up to my standards. This is clearly stated below.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I think you have it backwards.
God has established the moral standards. It is only reasonable that we should expect him to live up to the standards that he himself has established. This does not mean we are expecting him to live up to OUR standards, we expect him to live up to his OWN standards. If he cannot do that, then he cannot be trusted.

This is the fatal flaw of Damnationism. Because Damnationism has created a god that doesn't live up to the moral standards of God. What we might want to call idolatry. But I don't hold them responsible, we have all been fed the lies.

 

[Charlie24]

Correction Charlie, correction.

Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

Let's explore that.
What difference does a person's position on the final judgment play in their faith in Christ? Would you say the same thing about Annihilationists? Is their faith in jeopardy for not believing in a forever burning hell?
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Universalism

I'm saying that only faith and repentance in Christ determines one's destiny.

On the other hand, if one is wrong about hell in the fashion of the Unversalists, it naturally brings to question, where is their faith placed?

Is it placed in the God of the Bible, or is it placed in a God that appears to be the God of the Bible? Which would not be the Father of the Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie...
Wow. Take a breath and re-read my post.
I don't expect God to live up to my standards. This is clearly stated below.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I think you have it backwards.
God has established the moral standards. It is only reasonable that we should expect him to live up to the standards that he himself has established. This does not mean we are expecting him to live up to OUR standards, we expect him to live up to his OWN standards. If he cannot do that, then he cannot be trusted.

This is the fatal flaw of Damnationism. Because Damnationism has created a god that doesn't live up to the moral standards of God. What we might want to call idolatry. But I don't hold them responsible, we have all been fed the lies.

OK, Steve, I will point out your hypocrisy.

You claim not to be expecting Him to live up to your standards.

We are taking Him at His plain Word, but according to you somehow we have placed Him at our standard. Impossible!

But you have changed His word in order to meet your standard.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

OK, Steve, I will point out your hypocrisy.

You claim not to be expecting Him to live up to your standards.

We are taking Him at His plain Word, but according to you somehow we have placed Him at our standard. Impossible!

But you have changed His word in order to meet your standard.

Charlie, the Greek word for punishment has always been correction, and the concept of judgement in Hebrew culture was always about restoration, salvation and righteousness.

This is what the LORD of Hosts says: 'Administer true justice. Show loving devotion and compassion to one another.' (Zec 7:9)

For Jesus is lowly and meek of heart, and if you've seen the son you've seen the Father. So judge not according to the flesh, but if yo have to judge, then judge rightly.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Charles has pointed out in his O.P. the vital flaw of the Restitution of all is >>>

Matt. 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The cornerstone upon which fundagelicals rely, is the ONLY Scripture that speaks of "everlasting punishment." And what are the qualifications for everlasting punishment according to the Saviour of the all ?

There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy!

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1._____________________________________________________________?

2._____________________________________________________________?

3._____________________________________________________________?

4._____________________________________________________________?

5._____________________________________________________________?


There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25)

Except that there isn’t. The Greek word “αιωνιος” does not mean “everlasting.” It means “lasting.”

And the Greek word “κολασις” does not mean “punishment.” It means “correction.”

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie, the Greek word for punishment has always been correction, and the concept of judgement in Hebrew culture was always about restoration, salvation and righteousness.

This is what the LORD of Hosts says: 'Administer true justice. Show loving devotion and compassion to one another.' (Zec 7:9)

For Jesus is lowly and meek of heart, and if you've seen the son you've seen the Father. So judge not according to the flesh, but if yo have to judge, then judge rightly.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Dear Charles has pointed out in his O.P. the vital flaw of the Restitution of all is >>>

Matt. 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The cornerstone upon which fundagelicals rely, is the ONLY Scripture that speaks of "everlasting punishment." And what are the qualifications for everlasting punishment according to the Saviour of the all ?

for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me. (Mt 25:42-3)

 

[Charlie24]

I'm having problems with my computer when posting, anyway.

The last time I looked at my Greek dictionary, punishment was,

retribution, penalty, chastisement.

Don't play this silly game with me,SM.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'm having problems with my computer when posting, anyway.

The last time I looked at my Greek dictionary, punishment was,

retribution, penalty, chastisement.

Don't play this silly game with me,SM.

When you point a finger Charlie, you have 4 pointing back at you.

Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

The ancient Greeks had 2 words for punishment, kolasis and timoria. The first was for the benefit of the punishee, the other for the benefit of the punisher. The NT always uses KOLASIS.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm having problems with my computer when posting, anyway.

The last time I looked at my Greek dictionary, punishment was,

retribution, penalty, chastisement.

Don't play this silly game with me,SM.

The penalty for sin is death! This is speaking of physical and spiritual death.

This is not for correction! It is punishment for crimes committed.

 

[Charlie24]

When you point a finger Charlie, you have 4 pointing back at you.

Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

The ancient Greeks had 2 words for punishment, kolasis and timoria. The first was for the benefit of the punishee, the other for the benefit of the punisher. The NT always uses KOLASIS.

That's true, but I will always point that finger when someone is being dishonest with God's Word.

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm saying that only faith and repentance in Christ determines one's destiny.

On the other hand, if one is wrong about hell in the fashion of the Unversalists, it naturally brings to question, where is their faith placed?

Is it placed in the God of the Bible, or is it placed in a God that appears to be the God of the Bible? Which would not be the Father of the Christ.

Forum use tip: Click the < Reply button and your post is automatically quoted.

That saw cuts both ways Charlie. But I would never claim such a thing about Damnationists.

Make no mistake. We know who God is. And he wouldn't do what you are claiming he will do. So, if this is a case of mistaken identity, you will not win that argument.

How many of the Patriarchs believed in "the God of the Bible"?
Oh that's right, they didn't have a Bible.

 

[Saint Steven]

OK, Steve, I will point out your hypocrisy.

That was a cheap shot. And uncalled for.

 

[Charlie24]

That was a cheap shot. And uncalled for.

Oh, now you're offended when called out and pushed into a corner.

I took you as being tougher than that.

 

[FineLinen]

That's true, but I will always point that finger when someone is being dishonest with God's Word.

Dear Charles: Forget your fingers. Until by the Spirit of the Lord you are expanded by the working of ephphatha, you will circle your wagon on the same little avenue of understanding.


There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25)

Except that there isn’t. The Greek word “αιωνιος” does not mean “everlasting.” It means “lasting.”

And the Greek word “κολασις” does not mean “punishment.” It means “correction.”

 

[Saint Steven]

You claim not to be expecting Him to live up to your standards.

We are taking Him at His plain Word, but according to you somehow we have placed Him at our standard. Impossible!

But you have changed His word in order to meet your standard.

Taking him at his plain word?
Are you referring to a flawed Bible translation? You are calling that "His plain Word"?

We have told you numerous times that we question the translation bias in our Bible.
It seems that Damnationists have turned the Bible into a sacred cow.
You are aware that the translations do not even agree with one another.
So what exactly is the plain "Word" from that perspective?