The fatal flaw of Universalism

Albion · Jan 10, 2020

martymonster asked--

Meaning what exactly?

If we start by agreeing on the nature and characteristics of God, of course we all will find any suggestion about him acting differently than that to be unacceptable. If we start by agreeing on the Biblical God's nature, we will say that it's not like God to do X or Y.

But if the idea is that God, in order to be God, must necessarily be this or that, it doesn't hold.

Saint Steven · Jan 10, 2020

Albion said:
martymonster asked--

If we start by agreeing on the nature and characteristics of God, of course we all will find any suggestion about him acting differently than that to be unacceptable. We will say that it's not like God to do X or Y.

But the question wasn't about God as we Christians have been informed he is. It concerned the4 suggestion that God, in order to be God, must necessarily be this or that. The question, in other words, was about the validity of any concept of God.

Relationships are built on trust. If we can't trust God, what basis do we have for a relationship with him?

Albion · Jan 10, 2020

Saint Steven said:
If God is a liar, a cheat, a thief, a murderer, a swindler, a torturer, and worse; then he can't be trusted.

That's probably true to say.

Albion · Jan 10, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Relationships are built on trust. If we can't trust God, what basis do we have for a relationship with him?

Look. If it is the God we Christians know, there are some expectations we would naturally have of him, yes. But the suggestion that he MUST -- in order to be God -- live up to our mortal standards of fair play is going too far. God is above all that he created and free to do with it as he chooses.

FineLinen · Jan 10, 2020

Albion said:
Look. If it is the God we Christians know, there are some expectations we would naturally have of him, yes. But the suggestion that he MUST -- in order to be God -- live up to our mortal standards of fair play is going too far. God is above all that he created and free to do with it as he chooses.

Dear Albion: I have been leaning my broken life on the Father for many moons. In those years I have found Him to be absolutely trustworthy and never requiring anything of me that is outside of what He is. God is far beyond our expectations and exceeds them in incredible dimensions.

This is not a matter of "fair play" according to dorky human standards. He can be trusted, He does all things well!

Everything!

Saint Steven · Jan 10, 2020

Albion said:
Look. If it is the God we Christians know, there are some expectations we would naturally have of him, yes. But the suggestion that he MUST -- in order to be God -- live up to our mortal standards of fair play is going too far. God is above all that he created and free to do with it as he chooses.

I think you have it backwards.
God has established the moral standards. It is only reasonable that we should expect him to live up to the standards that he himself has established. This does not mean we are expecting him to live up to OUR standards, we expect him to live up to his OWN standards. If he cannot do that, then he cannot be trusted.

This is the fatal flaw of Damnationism. Because Damnationism has created a god that doesn't live up to the moral standards of God. What we might want to call idolatry. But I don't hold them responsible, we have all been fed the lies.

Albion · Jan 10, 2020

Saint Steven said:
I think you have it backwards.
God has established the moral standards. It is only reasonable that we should expect him to live up to the standards that he himself has established. This does not mean we are expecting him to live up to OUR standards, we expect him to live up to his OWN standards. If he cannot do that, then he cannot be trusted.

To the extent that that is what is done, then I agree.

But when the argument is put a little bit differently, suggesting that for God to be a God, the supreme being, he can't do X because that isn't in the nature of a deity, that's something else.

This is the fatal flaw of Damnationism. Because Damnationism has created a god that doesn't live up to the moral standards of God.

Did you just make up that word?

Saint Steven · Jan 10, 2020

Albion said:
Did you just make up that word?

I have been using the word Damnationism for several months now.
I'm not sure if I coined the term here, or picked it up somewhere.
I'm pretty sure it has been used before by someone.
There is a published book with the word in the title.

I needed something to call the group that had a doctrine of the final judgement that included a forever burning hell. Damnationism seemed to fit. Especially when you see it listed with the other two.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Universalism

Jord Simcha · Jan 10, 2020

Damnationism only has 687 entries on google, lol, but it does have a Wiki-page.

Saint Steven · Jan 10, 2020

Jord Simcha said:
Damnationism only has 687 entries on google, lol, but it does have a Wiki-page.

Ah, yes. This is a pioneering work. - lol
With roots in the eastern early church. (see Origen)

Jord Simcha · Jan 10, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Ah, yes. This is a pioneering work. - lol

We're going to make that word famous!

The wikipage is empty by the way, so we get to define it if we want!

I started: Damnationism - Wikipedia

Meh.. found out it is a disambiguation page, not really meant for an article..

GaveMeJoy · Jan 11, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Have you seen the long list of translators through the centuries who have translated the Hebrew and Greek scriptures into English. It's quite a list.

Did you know they are all wrong in leading us to believe there is a permanent hell for those who reject Christ, according to the Universalists.

A merciful and loving God cannot be just to send part of His creation to a place such as this while some others enjoy the presence of God forever.

Scripture such as these have been mistranslated by all these translators.

Matt. 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2Thes. 1:9
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Jude 7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The Universalists have said they plan to translate their own Bible and make these corrections.

When they do they have sealed their fate. I would like to draw your attention to a very important verse of scripture.

Rev. 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What have the Universalists taken away from the words of the book of this prophecy, or from the entire Bible? They have taken away from any words such as eternal, everlasting, anything that presents a permanent place of punishment for those who have rejected Christ.

What did God say in Rev. 22:19 the punishment for such a thing will be?

Folks, this is as serious as false doctrine can get!

Luke 13:1-5
Matt 23:33

Unfortunately, if you don't believe in Hell, that's where you are going. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Please read the bible and ask God to show you the truth there, the stakes are so high.

Saint Steven · Jan 11, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
Luke 13:1-5
Matt 23:33

Unfortunately, if you don't believe in Hell, that's where you are going. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Please read the bible and ask God to show you the truth there, the stakes are so high.

Does that apply to Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny as well?
If you don't believe in them they become real? - lol

Since our faith is in Jesus Christ, how can you claim that a doctrinal position on the final judgment is a determining factor?

FineLinen · Jan 11, 2020

GaveMeJoy said:
Luke 13:1-5
Matt 23:33

Unfortunately, if you don't believe in Hell, that's where you are going. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Please read the bible and ask God to show you the truth there, the stakes are so high.

Dear Joy: I behold 4 (four) hells in Scripture. Do you know all four of them are consummated in the Lake of Fire that radiates with theion and theioo?

All of us have indeed sinned and fallen far, far, far short of the glory of the Glorious One. At-one-ment is the process whereby our wonderful Heavenly Father brings His entire broken world of sin and dismay Home to His heart & thinking!

Many made sinners = many made righteous.

Charlie24 · Jan 11, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Does that apply to Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny as well?
If you don't believe in them they become real? - lol

Since our faith is in Jesus Christ, how can you claim that a doctrinal position on the final judgment is a determining factor?

I believe he is trying to say that if your doctrine on hell is mistaken, there is a very good possibility your faith in Christ is also mistaken.

Paul tells us to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith, prove your own selves.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 11, 2020

Charlie24 said:
I believe he is trying to say that if your doctrine on hell is mistaken, there is a very good possibility your faith in Christ is also mistaken.

Paul tells us to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith, prove your own selves.

So Charlie, can you trust Jesus to treat you to all the benefits of heaven while at the same time ensuring that poor little rape victim who suicided blaming him for not saving her gets her face melted off as she gurgles in contorted agony, the smoke rising from her charred yet living body, forever and ever...

Do you sneer at her Charlie, do you say 'You had your chance, your shouldn't have denied him'. And then you and Jesus laugh heartily together - what a jolly time.

Is that how it goes, Charlie?

Charlie24 · Jan 11, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
So Charlie, can you trust Jesus to treat you to all the benefits of heaven while at the same time ensuring that poor little rape victim who suicided blaming him for not saving her gets her face melted off as she gurgles in contorted agony, the smoke rising from her charred yet living body, forever and ever...

Do you sneer at her Charlie, do you say 'You had your chance, your shouldn't have denied him'. And then you and Jesus laugh heartily together - what a jolly time.

Is that how it goes, Charlie?

My Lord, what a way to look at our Father!

How do you know at that moment she didn't call on the Lord and was forgiven?

How do you know anything about why the Almighty allowed this to happen.

I can tell you SM, the Lord is very displeased with your attitude toward Him.

You have taken unto yourself the Judgement of God, and declared Him unrighteous.

May the Lord have mercy on you my friend.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 11, 2020

RaymondG said:
Matthew 25:40-42
"41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:"

While I have no objection to the reply of @Oldmantook regarding this scripture, my view is that there is in an everlasting fire which is the fire of God's pure being. So if you're still unrepentant or addicted to bad habits, you get thrown in there. (Yeah, torture them!...hang on...)

But it's a baptism of fire and the spirit, it cleanses you of sin, it renews you in Christ. That is the purpose and function of the lake of fire.

The nations (being unbelievers) get cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20:15, only to emerge after God declares He is making all things new in Rev 21:6, and bring their glory to the throne through the ever-open pearly gates (Rev 21:24-26). And (as if that's not enough) they get healing from the tree of life (Rev 22:2). It's all revealed in a little book known as Revelation.

Shrewd Manager · Jan 11, 2020

Charlie24 said:
My Lord, what a way to look at our Father!

How do you know at that moment she didn't call on the Lord and was forgiven?

How do you know anything about why the Almighty allowed this to happen.

I can tell you SM, the Lord is very displeased with your attitude toward Him.

You have taken unto yourself the Judgement of God, and declared Him unrighteous.

May the Lord have mercy on you my friend.

Oh Charlie, she's our hypothetical rape victim suicide, but tragically it happens all the time.

So is the sole determining factor between eternal bliss and eternal torture whether a person has 'called on the name of Jesus Christ' as at the moment of their decease?

Charlie24 · Jan 11, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
While I have no objection to the reply of @Oldmantook regarding this scripture, my view is that there is in an everlasting fire which is the fire of God's pure being. So if you're still unrepentant or addicted to bad habits, you get thrown in there. (Yeah, torture them!...hang on...)

But it's a baptism of fire and the spirit, it cleanses you of sin, it renews you in Christ. That is the purpose and function of the lake of fire.

The nations (being unbelievers) get cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20:15, only to emerge after God declares He is making all things new in Rev 21:6, and bring their glory to the throne through the ever-open pearly gates (Rev 21:24-26). And (as if that's not enough) they get healing from the tree of life (Rev 22:2). It's all revealed in a little book known as Revelation.

The scripture plainly says that HELL is a place of punishment, an eternal punishment.

Hell being a place of purification is a lie straight from the pits of hell.

You cherry pick scripture to present such a thing. It's not found in the Word of God.

Why must you insist on perverting the Word of God?

The fatal flaw of Universalism

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